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Cracked weld on my AR550 steel target.
- Thread starter DW357
- Start date
I do not know what temper the plates normally are, but yes, you want to try to retemper the steel AND weldment to the same temper as original. Its been a log time, but I recall straw yeloow color then dump in water for a good temper. I think since they keep cracking, you want the weld material to be pretty soft though.
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
You need to look up the grades of metal to know how to heat treat it . The proper chemical to use for quenching.
First you heat it up to a temp can go by what color it is but it's not 100% the right way.
Then depending on the alloy you would dunk it in water , oil , or some thing else.
Some metals need to be cooled down fast . Water is good for this.
Some needs to cool down little bit slower oil is good for this.
Used motor can be used if you want to add carbon to the metal some what.
Tempering is then done to make a part less brittle and normalize the part if you did spot heat treating.
You don't allways get it red hot for tempering. It depends on the metal and what your trying todo .
My 80% psl receiver I spot heat treated .
4140 so I used water to quench it . Cause that's what my machinist hand book called out.
Then to temper it I put it in my oven on 450 for 1 hour . I left it in there with the door closed so the oven would retain heat and cool off slower .
First you heat it up to a temp can go by what color it is but it's not 100% the right way.
Then depending on the alloy you would dunk it in water , oil , or some thing else.
Some metals need to be cooled down fast . Water is good for this.
Some needs to cool down little bit slower oil is good for this.
Used motor can be used if you want to add carbon to the metal some what.
Tempering is then done to make a part less brittle and normalize the part if you did spot heat treating.
You don't allways get it red hot for tempering. It depends on the metal and what your trying todo .
My 80% psl receiver I spot heat treated .
4140 so I used water to quench it . Cause that's what my machinist hand book called out.
Then to temper it I put it in my oven on 450 for 1 hour . I left it in there with the door closed so the oven would retain heat and cool off slower .
Tempering is a softening process, usually a low-temp (4-500F) soak for several hours, and ordinarily accomplished immediately after a quench, as part of the heat-treating process. The point of this is to convert martensite back to pearlite/ferrite as well as allow any built-up stresses in the material to work themselves out, resulting in a softer and more ductile material than when it was fully martensitic.
That being said, the whole point of AR500/AR550 plates is that they are hard enough to resist deforming when impacted. Doing anything to lower the hardness of the plate itself is, quite frankly, stupid.
Also, as I mentioned before, a properly deposited weldment will be relatively soft.
****ing with the heat-treat is NOT going to solve the OP's problem. A better design will.
Andrew1220
Find the guy who welded the arm on your base to that spring pivot thing on the base and you found a good welder.....to me this seems like a high stress area. .... I only have one small ar500 target. Local welder attached a large eyelets from a tow chain to attach chain or rope to. I have no idea what he used but I waited a few days as he needed to pick up the correct rod. The weld looks as part of the steel on both the plate and link......I also believe he heated it up to 250 degrees or so. He has a large "oven" in his shop which has a sign on it
Capacity 1800lbs Max temp 500'F
Find the guy who welded the arm on your base to that spring pivot thing on the base and you found a good welder.....to me this seems like a high stress area. .... I only have one small ar500 target. Local welder attached a large eyelets from a tow chain to attach chain or rope to. I have no idea what he used but I waited a few days as he needed to pick up the correct rod. The weld looks as part of the steel on both the plate and link......I also believe he heated it up to 250 degrees or so. He has a large "oven" in his shop which has a sign on it
Capacity 1800lbs Max temp 500'F
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Well I emailed Action Target and made suggestions about the design/weld that everyone in this thread had commented about. Like using a larger weld/bigger bracket, move the bracket higher up on the target etc. basically summarized what everyone said and emailed them. They just got back to me late last night saying:
The issue with making the weld bigger or putting the weld higher is that welding actually softens the steel. We try to keep the weld small and low to minimize the heat effect area. I'm not sure what exactly you're experiencing with the target heads you've head. They rarely ever break like that, even on torso targets where the weld is at the very bottom.
I don't know if I just have bad luck or they're lying to me when they say "they rarely every break like that".
The issue with making the weld bigger or putting the weld higher is that welding actually softens the steel. We try to keep the weld small and low to minimize the heat effect area. I'm not sure what exactly you're experiencing with the target heads you've head. They rarely ever break like that, even on torso targets where the weld is at the very bottom.
I don't know if I just have bad luck or they're lying to me when they say "they rarely every break like that".
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AF83
NES Member
What about welding on some fingers to help absorb the energy over a larger area. Also possibly using some type of heavy duty spring at the base of the unit to allow for a small amount of give when the bullet strikes the plate.
Yeah I suggested a finger like bracket/gusset on the back in my email to them. Also I should have noted that the target has about 3 inches of play (never measured it but it's somewhere around that distance) back and forth when a bullet strikes the target so it does have some give.
Here's a video of a guy shooting his with pistol and rifle. Fast forward to 7:12 and he starts shooting it with 5.56 and you can see the movement/play in the target. He's also shooting at only 50 yards which is stupid and not advised by Action Target.
[video=youtube_share;YmQdvDctQuw]http://youtu.be/YmQdvDctQuw[/video]
If I were to fab up a target frame like this one (which I'm thinking of doing), where it holds the plate statically at an angle to deflect splatter to the ground, I'd weld up a backing plate the same size as the 550 plate and have a few tabs to secure the plate. If it was round plate, 3 small tabs equally spaced apart with a removable tab at the top to allow removal of the plate. You could even make the tabs adjustable to allow different size/shape plates.
This way, you're not affecting the hardness of the 550 plate at all, and you can easily swap the plates out if necessary.
This way, you're not affecting the hardness of the 550 plate at all, and you can easily swap the plates out if necessary.
![[troll]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/016.gif "Troll [troll]")
Here are some photos of the AR500 that I had some boat welders, weld back together last year. I'll just use this one for pistol rounds so it should hold up I think.
View attachment 101834View attachment 101835View attachment 101836
View attachment 101834View attachment 101835View attachment 101836
falcon123
NES Member
Crappy weld.
Haha I figured it probably was, that's why I put up pictures for NESers familiar with welding. They did it kinda last minute and really quick so that's probably why. Not all of the shipyard workers down there are that great including the welders lol.
falcon123
NES Member
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Crappy doesn't even begin to cover it. Inexcusable is more like it.
Well I'll shoot it to see how many shots it takes for it to fall off lol. The replacement target will be at my house Tuesday. But I'm probably going to meet NESer Golddiggie on Friday and he's going to weld the busted one for me. Thanks Golddiggie! So many helpful members on here.
Golddiggie
NES Member
I'm going to do my best to fix it... I've already consulted with another person that has been welding for ages. I'll follow his advise and we'll see how it holds up. It's also a chance to crank my welder up to close to full power. I can almost hear the [house] power meter spinning like a top now.
![[rofl2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/035.gif "ROFL2 [rofl2]")
I'm just glad you're not that far away. Or won't be on Friday. The short distance I am from where you'll be then, makes it pretty easy IMO.
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
Man that's some bad welding .
Preheat to 300 and TIG it with stainless filler. peen it as it cools to releave stress.
Mig welding will "stick" it for now. The 70 series wire is not ideal. if Not properly done this will leave you with a brittle HAZ . Putting the welder on "11" and nuking it is not the answer for longevity.
If you can't TIG then get some E11018 and stick weld it. Abrasive resistant plate is high carbon and welds like cast. That is why you should step weld the bracket and peen it with a hammer to keep that crack you see from happening.
Or you can crack a beer weld the snot out of it (remember more is always better) shoot at it until it fails someday and repeat.
Mig welding will "stick" it for now. The 70 series wire is not ideal. if Not properly done this will leave you with a brittle HAZ . Putting the welder on "11" and nuking it is not the answer for longevity.
If you can't TIG then get some E11018 and stick weld it. Abrasive resistant plate is high carbon and welds like cast. That is why you should step weld the bracket and peen it with a hammer to keep that crack you see from happening.
Or you can crack a beer weld the snot out of it (remember more is always better) shoot at it until it fails someday and repeat.
It's like tying things up.....don't know a knot? Tie a lot.
Golddiggie
NES Member
Didn't crack a beer (I have it on tap anyway) but I welded the ever loving snot out of the pieces. Did a little prep work to the pieces (got rid of the failed welds), heated up in my cure oven for a spell, then welded away... I plan to hit it with at least my 24oz ball peen hammer once it fully cools to make sure the welds hold.
Keep in mind, I'm using .030" solid wire. Which means I needed to make multiple passes. This is the thickest stuff I've welded so far. Of course, it's still within the capability of the machine. I'm SO glad I got this one instead of one of those harbor freight POS...
As long as it survives the test tomorrow, I'll clean the welds up before Andrew gets it back...
BTW, thanks Gator9329 for the advise... Used a couple of aluminum plates (1/2" thick each) stacked under the plate to wick away some of the heat while welding.
Keep in mind, I'm using .030" solid wire. Which means I needed to make multiple passes. This is the thickest stuff I've welded so far. Of course, it's still within the capability of the machine. I'm SO glad I got this one instead of one of those harbor freight POS...
As long as it survives the test tomorrow, I'll clean the welds up before Andrew gets it back...
BTW, thanks Gator9329 for the advise... Used a couple of aluminum plates (1/2" thick each) stacked under the plate to wick away some of the heat while welding.
Golddiggie
NES Member
Andrew picked the repaired target today. I decided to at least primer it and paint the back black for him. I had the paint on hand, so no biggie for me. He'll have to paint the face unless he wants to shoot the grey target.
Very interested to see how it holds up to hits now. Kind of wish I had thought to take a couple more pics before he took it... Oh well.
Very interested to see how it holds up to hits now. Kind of wish I had thought to take a couple more pics before he took it... Oh well.
Andrew picked the repaired target today. I decided to at least primer it and paint the back black for him. I had the paint on hand, so no biggie for me. He'll have to paint the face unless he wants to shoot the grey target.
Very interested to see how it holds up to hits now. Kind of wish I had thought to take a couple more pics before he took it... Oh well.
I'll put up some pictures tomorrow. I can't upload photos from my iPhone. Thanks.
