Cracked weld on my AR550 steel target.

[DW357]

Planned obsolescence?

From the pics, the design looks like every time you hit the plate it's going to want to put leverage on the bottom of the bracket. If you repaired it with vertical welds only, I'd bet they'd start to crack at the bottom pretty quickly. Having some sort of gusset welded to the entire length of the plate, top to bottom, might help.

Yeah the size of the bracket compared to the size of the target is small so like you said, it's going to torque the bracket. Especially hitting it towards the top of the target, or really anywhere other than dead center.

A gusset or some sort of reinforcement bracket that covers the entire back of the target would seem like a better design like you said.

- - - Updated - - -

Attach it with something less brittle. Braising may be an option. If you were out in wmass I would weld it for ya no problem.

Yeah it seems like most of the NES welders are in central or western mass, nowhere near me on the greater north shore. Thanks though.

 

[shapiroeric]

I think that would have held up better if the back plate was mounted higher up on the target.....When you "miss" high it puts more stress on the lower portion of the weld, which looks to have failed first.....centering the back plate with a new weld may yield better results....just a thought....

 

[Chet0729]

Showed you pic to a friend who is a professional welder. He said the weld was probably done with the wrong material and not hot enough. He said to grind the material out and have it welded by someone who knows what they are doing. He also said this type of thing is common on consumer products that are machine welded.
He said if welded properly those bolts would have failed before the weld

 

[DW357]

I think that would have held up better if the back plate was mounted higher up on the target.....When you "miss" high it puts more stress on the lower portion of the weld, which looks to have failed first.....centering the back plate with a new weld may yield better results....just a thought....

I agree. I should email them and recommend using a larger bracket that's welded to the entire surface area of the target. But like Almostelmo said, maybe it's intentional. If they lasted much longer than 1-2 years they wouldn't make as much money I would guess.

 

[DW357]

Showed you pic to a friend who is a professional welder. He said the weld was probably done with the wrong material and not hot enough. He said to grind the material out and have it welded by someone who knows what they are doing. He also said this type of thing is common on consumer products that are machine welded.
He said if welded properly those bolts would have failed before the weld

Yeah the targets would probably cost even more if they paid a welder rather than using a machine to do the welding.

I don't know how experienced the boat welders are in my town and if they have the right equipment or filler material to weld correctly. I'll have to chat with them soon.

 

[shapiroeric]

I agree. I should email them and recommend using a larger bracket that's welded to the entire surface area of the target. But like Almostelmo said, maybe it's intentional. If they lasted much longer than 1-2 years they wouldn't make as much money I would guess.

I have they're shooting tree and I think they make a good product but agree they don't want things to last forever.....

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[drgrant]

Its only my experience, not my expert opinion, that welded brackets fail - at least on the targets I've had. The system I find works the best is a steel target with a bracket attached via bolt. The only thing I've had fail in thousands of rounds are the bolts themselves and that's an easy fix...Even that takes quite a bit of fire to occur.

This.... the stuff that uses a hanger of some sort or a bolt tends to last longer.

-Mike

 

[DW357]

This.... the stuff that uses a hanger of some sort or a bolt tends to last longer.

-Mike

I've been in contact with cerberus. Might get one of his target frames/stands and one of his gongs that I can hang from the frame.

 

[DW357]

I have they're shooting tree and I think they make a good product but agree they don't want things to last forever.....

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I wanted to get their hostage target but I may hold off on that for now after seeing the issues I've been having.

 

[DW357]

Update:
Just got off the phone with Action Target and they're shipping me the new target head for $42.53. They told me I could just bring the old target to a welder and get it welded back together and then I could purchase another target stand and have 2 targets to use. I told the guy that I'm already in the process of finding a welder.

Also I asked if they would really keep replacing the targets if the weld breaks every 1-2 years at a steep discount? They said they would but they require pictures to make sure the target hasn't been "misused". They told me they want to make sure I'm happy and satisfied and wouldn't just say too bad we're not going to replace the target. I mean to spend $42 every 2 years on a target isn't the end of the world but I'm certainly going to look into one of cerberus's builds/group buys.

 

[warwickben]

I just took a weld inspection class.... And learned this in high school.

Cracks around the weld are normal the heat zone is the week point. A weld cracking down the center .
Wrong filler used with different metals welded .
Or the weld was cooled down to fast.

 

[DW357]

I just took a weld inspection class.... And learned this in high school.

Cracks around the weld are normal the heat zone is the week point. A weld cracking down the center .
Wrong filler used with different metals welded .
Or the weld was cooled down to fast.

I asked the guy on the phone if special filler or equipment is needed to weld it back and he said any legitimate welder can do the work. They just need to make sure not to go the target to hot or it could weaken or penetrate the steel? But he said that's extremely rare.

 

[warwickben]

Normal when you weld two different grades of metal , You want to pick the right filler wire.
That will work the best with both. Sure regular steel wire will hold but got how long.

I don't know a crap load about ar550 etc but when ever I welded harden metals to non harden metals I had to toss it in a oven and let it slowly cool down . Different metals contract differently .

But seeing a weld split down the middle like that screams some thing was off when it was welded .
One of the common weld test. You weld a 1" strip end to end and then it's pulled till it snaps . The weld cracks you fail . The heat zone cracks you pass.

 

[DW357]

Normal when you weld two different grades of metal , You want to pick the right filler wire.
That will work the best with both. Sure regular steel wire will hold but got how long.

I don't know a crap load about ar550 etc but when ever I welded harden metals to non harden metals I had to toss it in a oven and let it slowly cool down . Different metals contract differently .

But seeing a weld split down the middle like that screams some thing was off when it was welded .
One of the common weld test. You weld a 1" strip end to end and then it's pulled till it snaps . The weld cracks you fail . The heat zone cracks you pass.

Interesting. So now when they ship me this replacement, I'll have 2 extra 10" target heads kicking around. How easy is it to drill/cut through the target to make a hanging gong? I'll have to PM cerberus again.

 

[warwickben]

Not sure about ar550 but the harden stuff I work with .right bit and oil no different then steel.

 

[DW357]

Not sure about ar550 but the harden stuff I work with .right bit and oil no different then steel.

Oh nice. I'll keep you in mind if I decide to have some holes drilled to put a chain through.

 

[dhuze]

Interesting. So now when they ship me this replacement, I'll have 2 extra 10" target heads kicking around. How easy is it to drill/cut through the target to make a hanging gong? I'll have to PM cerberus again.

Not sure about ar550 but the harden stuff I work with .right bit and oil no different then steel.

The right bit is the key. You aren't getting the right bit at HD or Lowes, and it isn't going to be $5. More like $35+

I had to drill the bottom of a cheap steel safe so I could bolt it to the floor of a store. I only had a set of Dewalt bits with me and in about 5 minutes I was only part way through. An electrician there went to his truck and got me a better bit and both holes were drilled in less than 1 minute. This was only maybe a 3/32 inch base too. I figured the standard cheap bits would work. I was wrong.

 

[Wrench75]

Just go get the chicago electric welder from harbor freight for $100. Throw away the cheap fluxcore wire that comes with it and go get a spool of lincoln fluxcore wire for $12. Then just re-weld as needed, or just make your own. I bought one of those welders several years ago and have never had any problems with it.

 

[Spanz]

to stop the weld from cracking, you need to temper the steel. the weld material is so hot, and it cools so fast, that it becomes hardened steel. Strong, but brittle too. You need to heat the whole plate up to dull red, then let it cool off again slowly.

 

[Chet0729]

Just go get the chicago electric welder from harbor freight for $100. Throw away the cheap fluxcore wire that comes with it and go get a spool of lincoln fluxcore wire for $12. Then just re-weld as needed, or just make your own. I bought one of those welders several years ago and have never had any problems with it.

That is going to be to light of a machine to handle that heavy steel plate

 

[Wrench75]

You need to heat the whole plate up to dull red, then let it cool off again slowly.

That will take all temper out of the steel and turn his AR550 plate into a weak piece of shit. Unless yo mean for him to heat it up to a light amber after the repair and then dunk the entire rig in to room temp oil to re-temper the whole thing.

Heating to dull red and cooling slowly WEAKENS metal.
Heating to light amber and cooling QUICKLY hardens steel.

That is why mechanics heat a stuck nut to "cherry red" to get it out. It softens the metal and allows the threads to deform slightly and break free.

To the OP. As for drilling the AR550 to put chain through it. I wouldn't. Just weld some chain to the back of it. You really don't want anything on the face of the target that can cause a ricochet. If drilling and bolting was the way to go then that is how these things would be made. If the company could get away with just bolting this stuff together then they would just pay minimum wage monkeys to assemble them rather than pay 3x as much to a skilled welder.

 

[Wrench75]

That is going to be to light of a machine to handle that heavy steel plate

How thick is the steel? The welder I'm talking about is rated to 5/8 hardened. Though AR550 specifically may be out of it's heat range. I don't know the specifics of AR550.

Personally, if I had to take 20 to re-weld after every other trip to the range rather than buying new plates every 2 yrs, and had a new tool that I would use for other things as well, that is the route I would go. He has basically already paid for the welder already just buying plates.

 

[DW357]

To the OP. As for drilling the AR550 to put chain through it. I wouldn't. Just weld some chain to the back of it. You really don't want anything on the face of the target that can cause a ricochet. If drilling and bolting was the way to go then that is how these things would be made. If the company could get away with just bolting this stuff together then they would just pay minimum wage monkeys to assemble them rather than pay 3x as much to a skilled welder.

Yeah I suppose I could have someone weld a chain to the back of it. This would only be used for rifle at 100+ yards so the chances of a ricochet would be much lower than using it at 10 yards for pistol I would think.

 

[Chet0729]

How thick is the steel? The welder I'm talking about is rated to 5/8 hardened. Though AR550 specifically may be out of it's heat range. I don't know the specifics of AR550.

Personally, if I had to take 20 to re-weld after every other trip to the range rather than buying new plates every 2 yrs, and had a new tool that I would use for other things as well, that is the route I would go. He has basically already paid for the welder already just buying plates.

I have used the $100 harbor freight welder and it is marginal on thin stuff, it does not have the current output to handle a heavy steel plate. Not sure it is adaptable to use with gas either As with everything else at HF you need to take the ratings with a grain of salt. The $100 dollar welder is rated up to 3/8 mild steel

 

[atmay]

I just took a weld inspection class.... And learned this in high school.

Cracks around the weld are normal the heat zone is the week point. A weld cracking down the center .
Wrong filler used with different metals welded .
Or the weld was cooled down to fast.

Normal when you weld two different grades of metal , You want to pick the right filler wire.
That will work the best with both. Sure regular steel wire will hold but got how long.

I don't know a crap load about ar550 etc but when ever I welded harden metals to non harden metals I had to toss it in a oven and let it slowly cool down . Different metals contract differently .

But seeing a weld split down the middle like that screams some thing was off when it was welded .
One of the common weld test. You weld a 1" strip end to end and then it's pulled till it snaps . The weld cracks you fail . The heat zone cracks you pass.

Welds can crack from any number of things, both during the welding process and while in service. This to me looks like a poor engineering coupled with a partial-penetration corner joint. The gap between the AR500 plate and the bracket concentrated the stresses, and caused it to start cracking. Once it starts, it just keeps going.

As for the correct filler, IMO something undermatched to the AR500 and matched to the mount would be appropriate.


And that "weld test", Ben. Do you guys do that at work? I do welding inspection for a living and have never heard of anyone doing that.

to stop the weld from cracking, you need to temper the steel. the weld material is so hot, and it cools so fast, that it becomes hardened steel. Strong, but brittle too. You need to heat the whole plate up to dull red, then let it cool off again slowly.

If you weld correctly, weld metal will NOT be in a hardened condition.

Yeah I suppose I could have someone weld a chain to the back of it. This would only be used for rifle at 100+ yards so the chances of a ricochet would be much lower than using it at 10 yards for pistol I would think.

Have two pieces welded on so you can hang it at a downward-facing angle.

 

[warwickben]

Welds can crack from any number of things, both during the welding process and while in service. This to me looks like a poor engineering coupled with a partial-penetration corner joint. The gap between the AR500 plate and the bracket concentrated the stresses, and caused it to start cracking. Once it starts, it just keeps going.

As for the correct filler, IMO something undermatched to the AR500 and matched to the mount would be appropriate.


And that "weld test", Ben. Do you guys do that at work? I do welding inspection for a living and have never heard of anyone doing that.



If you weld correctly, weld metal will NOT be in a hardened condition.




Have two pieces welded on so you can hang it at a downward-facing angle.

The Weld test I talked about was part of joing amws in high school. We had the machine that did it at the school. Had a scale that read out the amount of force when the part broke . I explained it in simpler terms.

At my day job bio/semi conductor . Some of the jobs the welders have to get this cert so we send then out . Other jobs the gases are so toxic every thing gets x rayed.

 

[Jason m]

OP if you want to make a day of this im thinking you could drive out to my house, we can weld them back up and then head up to the gun club, which is 1.5 miles up the road from me we could always test them out, lol.
Bring me some type of ammo and we will call it a trade, and yes I will use 1/8" 11018 and do the proper Pre-heat. Unless its to far of a trip then its no biggie.

Jason.

 

[falcon123]

One way to strengthen that weld is to drill a couple of 1/2" holes and weld inside them as well as around the original weld.

 

[atmay]

The Weld test I talked about was part of joing amws in high school. We had the machine that did it at the school. Had a scale that read out the amount of force when the part broke . I explained it in simpler terms.

At my day job bio/semi conductor . Some of the jobs the welders have to get this cert so we send then out . Other jobs the gases are so toxic every thing gets x rayed.

I only ask because the Navy is super strict about everything. For every qualification they have (IE, carbon-steel stick, CuNi TIG, etc), our welders have to weld 3 plates (1/4" plate, V-groove butt) which get X-Ray'd, and nothing less than perfection on the X-Ray film is a pass. That's what's normal to me.

Plus, after that, any welds made on anything other than carbon-steel to carbon-steel get visually inspected by us (the QA dept), plus any combination of magnetic particle, dye penetrant, ultrasonic, eddy current or radiographic inspection.

 

[warwickben]

To tell you the truth I forget why they do that type of test.