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Collecting a friend's guns after a restraining order..

Molon Labes all around, but here you all sit, discussing the legal route at *hopefully* getting this guys friends confiscated guns back. No screams about gun confiscation in America, no outrage... just a bunch of nerds spewing legal BS.

This thread kills any hopes I ever had of Americans standing up to fight. Bunch of dogs.
 
Molon Labes all around, but here you all sit, discussing the legal route at *hopefully* getting this guys friends confiscated guns back. No screams about gun confiscation in America, no outrage... just a bunch of nerds spewing legal BS.

This thread kills any hopes I ever had of Americans standing up to fight. Bunch of dogs.

Wow, way to contribute! Thanks for that helpful advice!
 
Wow, way to contribute! Thanks for that helpful advice!

In response to your rep comment;

You know nothing about the situation

Cops came for your friends guns. Friend gave them up. What did I miss?

Any gun owner that gives his guns up isn't worthy to own anything more than chains (heavy ones). Hopefully the guns go to auction and end up in the hands of a real American.
 
In response to your rep comment;



Cops came for your friends guns. Friend gave them up. What did I miss?

Any gun owner that gives his guns up isn't worthy to own anything more than chains (heavy ones). Hopefully the guns go to auction and end up in the hands of a real American.

The internet armchair, ninja, commando has spoken!

So, at least offer up some advice..... You have a RO taken out on you, the PD shows up for your firearms, and you do???????
 
Is the RO complete BS? I am sure many, many RO's have been issued for vengence/malicious purposes.

Restraining orders have an extremely low threshold now. After towns have been successfully sued by the family of women later killed by people they tried to get restraining orders against and were deigned, most judges will issue a 72 hour temporary restraining order to anyone willing to fill out a police report. After the 72 hours, the person requesting the order can appear in court and petition the court for a longer one. During that hearing, the person requesting one needs only present "probable cause" that the person might do something. The subject of the restraining order doesn't even need to be that to offer their side of the story.

Yes, they can easily be used maliciously. The "legal" system errs on the side of caution - considering the accused guilty without trial or evidence beyond the petitioners statement.
 
Cops came for your friends guns. Friend gave them up. What did I miss?

Any gun owner that gives his guns up isn't worthy to own anything more than chains (heavy ones). Hopefully the guns go to auction and end up in the hands of a real American.

so I take it you're advocating having a shoot-out with a law enforcement officer who has a judicial signed search warrant and confiscation order in hand? You try that, let me know how it goes for you.


We may not like the laws, but they are what they are. Unless you have the forethought to prepare documents such that in the event of a loss of legal ability to possess firearms, transfer ownership of said firearms to a specific FFL, whom you've made arrangements with so that you have control over them while you decide who to transfer them to in the mean time, you're likely left with those 2 options: 1) Shoot it out with the cops holding a legal warrant or 2) Give the cops your guns.

Yes, we're all upset, and many of us are actively involved in both trying to change the rules AND legal cases to hold police officers responsible for violating the law and abusing the property of gun owners. Until one of those paths bears fruit, the advice remains the same: Be prepared for it to happen to you. Hand over the guns, then take immediate legal steps to ensure they go into hands that you can control before they can be transfered to a storage facility that can charge storage fees that will eliminate any value the guns have.
 
Cops came for your friends guns. Friend gave them up. What did I miss?

Are you willing to get killed or go to prison for less than $1k of stuff? Yes, it sucks, but it's not a "lay down your life" issue.

When they show up at your door and you're not expecting them, you have very very little choice.

But really, my point was that since you don't know anything about the situation, you're awfully judgmental.

Ask yourself these questions:

- does he have a kid?
- did his wife accuse him of of being violent?
- how much are the guns worth?
- how many cops showed up?
- what time did they show up?
- does he have any assets (besides the guns)?
- how old his he?
- does he have any injuries?


Now, imagine some of the potential answers to those questions. Ask yourself, what would you do?

Seriously, what would you do?

The doorbell rings and there's two uniforms outside insisting that they come in and they're going to take your guns because they have a (shitty, but legal) restraining order. Do you say, "**** you pigs!" and start shooting? Do you say, "no, I won't let you in" and close the door? Do you deny you have any, (which leads to them tearing your house apart looking for them)

What do you imagine the reaction of the police would be?


Any gun owner that gives his guns up isn't worthy to own anything more than chains (heavy ones). Hopefully the guns go to auction and end up in the hands of a real American.

....

Wow.

Everyone is worthy of owning guns, even the ones who don't care that much about them.
 
Are you willing to get killed or go to prison for less than $1k of stuff? Yes, it sucks, but it's not a "lay down your life" issue.

When they show up at your door and you're not expecting them, you have very very little choice.

But really, my point was that since you don't know anything about the situation, you're awfully judgmental.

Ask yourself these questions:

- does he have a kid?
- did his wife accuse him of of being violent?
- how much are the guns worth?
- how many cops showed up?
- what time did they show up?
- does he have any assets (besides the guns)?
- how old his he?
- does he have any injuries?


Now, imagine some of the potential answers to those questions. Ask yourself, what would you do?

Seriously, what would you do?

The doorbell rings and there's two uniforms outside insisting that they come in and they're going to take your guns because they have a (shitty, but legal) restraining order. Do you say, "**** you pigs!" and start shooting? Do you say, "no, I won't let you in" and close the door? Do you deny you have any, (which leads to them tearing your house apart looking for them)

What do you imagine the reaction of the police would be?




....

Wow.

Everyone is worthy of owning guns, even the ones who don't care that much about them.

Nope, he's a internet armchair, ninja,commando. Talking a tough fine line is easy when is done over the interwebz with a screen name. You get to feel self righteous and superior all for doing nothing more than a few key stokes. In real life when your faced with being shredded into bits in front of your kids/family the fine line fades to grey.

I suggest internet commando's such as this spend a bit more time in the history books, as they are full of truly great men that knew when to pick their battles and when to fight another day.


I agree with the point, someone who is not committed a crime and has no violent background does NOT deserve to be stripped of their rights or property..... But I will be damned if I let harm come to the two 5 years old boys I just put to bed because I couldnt pick my battles
 
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No, you need an FFL. Thank Chuck Schumer and Frank Lautenberg.

I was not aware that the Schumer/Lautenmberg amendment put this restriction on post-confiscation transfer, however, MGL is clear on the matter:

From MGL chapter 209A section 3B:

.....said law enforcement official may store, transfer or otherwise dispose of any such weapon in accordance with the provisions of section 129D of chapter 140; provided however, that nothing herein shall authorize the transfer of any weapons surrendered by the defendant to anyone other than a licensed dealer.

Presumably, since this is MGL "licensed dealer" refers to a State of MA licensed dealer, not an FFL. MA licensed dealers also require FFLs, but there are rare cases where an FFL engages in activity not requiring a state dealer's license.

Non-209A confiscations do not have the same "only to a dealer" requirement.
 
I have done this once before for a friend. Your friend needs to call the police station and inform them that you a taking custody of his gun until his legal problems are solved or they are sold. Then schedule a time to go pick them up from the police station and sign for the custody and you are done. you are not taking ownership so you don't need fa10 form
 
I was not aware that the Schumer/Lautenmberg amendment put this restriction on post-confiscation transfer, however, MGL is clear on the matter:

Non-209A confiscations do not have the same "only to a dealer" requirement.


I am sure that Rob is correct, at least for a non-209A. My friend's father had his license suspended for 6 months. The brother of his father helped him pack his firearms in locked cases and transported them to the police station. After the police inventoried the firearms, the police had the father's brother sign for each firearm and then allowed him to take them home (in another city, same state) for storage. After the 6 month suspension was over, and with his license returned, my friend's father picked up his firearms from his brother.
 
Do the police just grab What you give them or do they search your house for any other violations? It would suck to be in the middle of reloading and get busted for improper storage or something dum.
Do they just toss them in a cruiser or do they let you put them in a case for protection?
Just got horrible thoughts of my M1's all scared from being thrown in a trunk

I went through this briefly a few years ago. I know a decent number of the cops in my town, most are good people. The issue I had was a temporary restraining order and the cops knew the whole situation and that it was BS. But they have to do their job, they have no choice. I was served with the TRO then they left. About 2 hours later they realized I had a LTC and guns. They said they need to take them, it's the state law and they have no choice. They asked for them, I retrieved them and they were gone. It's probably different for me since I know some of them. They knew the whole thing was BS so they kept them at the police station and the situation was a minor hassle, nothing more.

The situation for this guy will depend on what town and what the circumstances are for the RO.
 
Good luck this happened to a friend in Malden and they would'nt even let an FFL take possesion. It wasn't until a well known gun shop got involved and threatened to take legal action if they didn't release the firearms.
 
I have done this once before for a friend. Your friend needs to call the police station and inform them that you a taking custody of his gun until his legal problems are solved or they are sold. Then schedule a time to go pick them up from the police station and sign for the custody and you are done. you are not taking ownership so you don't need fa10 form

If your friend was 209A'ed, and you are not a MA licensed dealer, you and the police department effected that transfer in violation of MA law. If the guns were confiscated for some other non-evidentary reason, it was legal.

And, be aware, that some departments respond to requests for privately arranged transfers with a call to Dowd that starts "better hurry up and get here".

I have done this once before for a friend. Your friend needs to call the police station and inform them that you a taking custody of his gun until his legal problems are solved or they are sold. Then schedule a time to go pick them up from the police station and sign for the custody and you are done. you are not taking ownership so you don't need fa10 form

I would suggest showing up during business hours with all the paperwork in order, including a notarized release from the gun owner (even if he is present - make the paper trail for the PD easy). If you call ahead, Dowd may get that call.
 
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I doubt any PD is going to give a friend the guns. Its like not taking the plates off of a car registered to a suspended driver that keeps getting caught driving on the suspended license, they will just drive again when they get home. If a friend takes the guns, who's to say the friend doesnt give the guns back to him? Its all about liability at that point so a transfer would have to take place. The only way that happens is through an FFL since the owner no longer has LTC/FID. Yes it sucks but thats how it is.
 
He actually had his license revoked. It was about 6 years ago on cape cod. I had his guns for at least 4 years I even called the PD 2 years ago because my friend wanted to have his father hold them and the PD said I didn't have to do anything then either.
 
Restraining orders have an extremely low threshold now. After towns have been successfully sued by the family of women later killed by people they tried to get restraining orders against and were deigned, most judges will issue a 72 hour temporary restraining order to anyone willing to fill out a police report. After the 72 hours, the person requesting the order can appear in court and petition the court for a longer one. During that hearing, the person requesting one needs only present "probable cause" that the person might do something. The subject of the restraining order doesn't even need to be that to offer their side of the story.

Yes, they can easily be used maliciously. The "legal" system errs on the side of caution - considering the accused guilty without trial or evidence beyond the petitioners statement.

So I had a BS temporary Restraining order put on me several years ago. There was a large disagreement over a family members estate. A bitter (and f'ing crazy) relative assaulted me, I mildly defended myself and restrained her from hitting me. Then walked away while she came at me again but was stopped by family. Anyway, she was bitter and f'ing crazy and nuts about the money she got "screwed out of" even though she got the same amount as others. So I was working on the house the next night and a cop pulls up and says sorry but he had to give me a temporary RO.

The bar for a TRO is EXTREMELY LOW. Basically the person who wants one goes to a court during the day and fills out a short form and describes why they feel unsafe, etc. The judge looks at it and says ok and bam you get served a TRO. I'd love to se the numbers but I bet they are approved 99.4% of the time. It's just their word and that's it. You never even know about it until you are served. If it is a weekend or weekday night when the courts are closed, there is at least one judge on call at all times. They will do the thing over the phone and bam you get served a TRO probably within hours.


But this is where it gets really good. So I got served on a Sunday. I went to the court 7:30 monday morning to get the thing removed. I fill out the paper for the hearing and they call her. But they call and call and call and she never answered. There is a date for the TRO hearing (on the form) to extend it when you are served. But I wanted it gone now. She didn't answer the phone. So I asked, well can you force her to come in for the hearing or do you lift it if you can get her? Nope, she doesn't have to come in. There is nothing they can do to force her in until the date on the TRO you were served with. But that date could be a few weeks and in the mean time, you have no guns, you are in danger of violating the TRO if you go near her, etc.

If you are in a restaurant eating and she walks in, you must leave right away. And if she is f'ing crazy and vengeful she could make stuff up. She could say you drove by her house and threatened her, followed her, etc. and if you are not with someone at all times to attest that you did not violate the TRO, you are screwed!!!!! You'll be arrest and get to talk to the judge the next day after spending the night in jail. People with half a brain, enough anger and the determination, they can really really screw you up big time. They can use the system against you and really put you through the ringer.

In my town one of the nicer cops is a 42 yr old or so woman. Very nice and does her job well in my experiences with her and what I've heard. The person who put the TRO on me drove by a house I was at and flipped me off. She knew I'd be there and obviously was not "in fear of her life" or other BS. I was nervous because I was within x feet of her while she flipped me off so I called 911 right away and explained things and wanted cops to come out and take my statement as well as my witnesses. The female cop knew the relative who put the TRO on me and knew she was f'ing nuts. She knew the TRO was obviously BS since she had not problem going to where I was. The female Sargent quote to me was "90% of the TRO's we serve are complete BS and a waste of our time". The other cops I've talked to say the same thing. They know it's all BS and people are using the system to attack others to get back at them. But once the judge issues it, the cops are just serving the paper. They are pawns and they know it and do not like it.

In my case, I don't know what would have happened at the TRO hearing if the moron didn't drive by and flip me off. That actually happened the day before the hearing. When the judge heard that, she was not amused and it was quickly dismissed after a short hearing. But if not for that, who knows what would have happened.

My family has been friendly with the town police chief for decades. He's a nice guy but as he said, they are just following orders. He gave me a bunch of advise on what to do, etc. He said over and over "you need to get rid of that TRO ASAP" It is something that can really get you in a jam and you want to get it lifted as fast as possible. If you are going through a bitter divorce or something for instance. Say your wife knows your email password. She can go into your email, send a nasty threatening email to her account as if it came from you, then bring it to the police and you are going to jail. By the time you get search warrants to prove it came from a certain IP address from her work or whatever, you'd be in jail for some time.
 
I doubt any PD is going to give a friend the guns. Its like not taking the plates off of a car registered to a suspended driver that keeps getting caught driving on the suspended license, they will just drive again when they get home. If a friend takes the guns, who's to say the friend doesnt give the guns back to him? Its all about liability at that point so a transfer would have to take place. The only way that happens is through an FFL since the owner no longer has LTC/FID. Yes it sucks but thats how it is.

The friend would be signing for them. I am certain they would instruct the friend of what they are signing for and the responsibility. Basically if he get the guns back, you would be arrested and legally at risk for anything that happened. I don't know what the law is, what the cops can do within that law (or do outside the law if they want) but I think a lot depends on the police department, the situation and the individuals involved.

- - - Updated - - -

For the original poster. Is this a Temporary Restraining order or did they have the hearing and extend the temp into a full. How long is it for, how are the two people related to one another. Also, what are the people like, is the other person angry and looking for revenge?
 
Im saying this as being a very pro-2a leo. Not gonna happen, there isnt anything that the pd has that lifts the liability off of them and puts it on that person taking the guns. Not saying it will never happen but especially in the case of a ro, i dont know anyone that would risk their ass even if they thought it was bs.
 
JC there is a hell of a lotta gun confiscation going on. Don't know where ro come from but the vawa was just renewed. That shit stinks to high heaven.
 
In response to your rep comment;



Cops came for your friends guns. Friend gave them up. What did I miss?

Any gun owner that gives his guns up isn't worthy to own anything more than chains (heavy ones). Hopefully the guns go to auction and end up in the hands of a real American.

I'd like to be certain about what you are saying here. Are you saying that he should have resisted the police with whatever force was required by him, when they took his guns due to a restraining order that he was the subject of ?
 
The internet armchair, ninja, commando has spoken!

So, at least offer up some advice..... You have a RO taken out on you, the PD shows up for your firearms, and you do???????

Damn, and I was hoping the insults would at least be original.

so I take it you're advocating having a shoot-out with a law enforcement officer who has a judicial signed search warrant and confiscation order in hand? You try that, let me know how it goes for you.


We may not like the laws, but they are what they are. Unless you have the forethought to prepare documents such that in the event of a loss of legal ability to possess firearms, transfer ownership of said firearms to a specific FFL, whom you've made arrangements with so that you have control over them while you decide who to transfer them to in the mean time, you're likely left with those 2 options: 1) Shoot it out with the cops holding a legal warrant or 2) Give the cops your guns.

Yes, we're all upset, and many of us are actively involved in both trying to change the rules AND legal cases to hold police officers responsible for violating the law and abusing the property of gun owners. Until one of those paths bears fruit, the advice remains the same: Be prepared for it to happen to you. Hand over the guns, then take immediate legal steps to ensure they go into hands that you can control before they can be transfered to a storage facility that can charge storage fees that will eliminate any value the guns have.

All of the bolded parts made me nauseas. Are you serious? You would hand over your guns just because some a**h*** has a piece of paper that said you no longer have the RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS? WHat would that accomplish? Say the antis finally get their way and order all gun owners to hand in their firearms? Are you going to hand them in with your tail between your legs just because it's the legal thing to do?

Good thing the men that mustered at Lexington didn't share your mentality.

Are you willing to get killed or go to prison for less than $1k of stuff? Yes, it sucks, but it's not a "lay down your life" issue.

When they show up at your door and you're not expecting them, you have very very little choice.

But really, my point was that since you don't know anything about the situation, you're awfully judgmental.

Ask yourself these questions:

- does he have a kid?
- did his wife accuse him of of being violent?
- how much are the guns worth?
- how many cops showed up?
- what time did they show up?
- does he have any assets (besides the guns)?
- how old his he?
- does he have any injuries?


Now, imagine some of the potential answers to those questions. Ask yourself, what would you do?

Seriously, what would you do?

The doorbell rings and there's two uniforms outside insisting that they come in and they're going to take your guns because they have a (shitty, but legal) restraining order. Do you say, "**** you pigs!" and start shooting? Do you say, "no, I won't let you in" and close the door? Do you deny you have any, (which leads to them tearing your house apart looking for them)

What do you imagine the reaction of the police would be?




....

Wow.

Everyone is worthy of owning guns, even the ones who don't care that much about them.

Who cares what the guns are worth in terms of cash? Whether it's a $1,00 Kimber or $100 Hi Point, gun OWNERSHIP is priceless. You cannot put a price tag on freedom.

I have a daughter, a woman, a good job, a good life, but I will never give up my guns. If someone came to my doorstep and demanded my guns I would handle it the same way as if someone came to my door and demanded my daughter, or my girlfriend, or to hand me a "legal document" that said I could no longer have political discussions.

I'm not going to go on about getting in shootouts with police, but coming to my doorstep and trying to take from me what I have a Constitutional right to possess would be ill advised.

But hey, keep the keyboard commando comments coming. At least I'm not a keyboard pussy.
 
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The situation for this guy will depend on what town and what the circumstances are for the RO.
Perhaps, but the one constant is that guns are ALWAYS seized. Boxes 1, 2, 3, and 12 are almost always checked, irrelevant to the circumstances serving as the basis for the order. I think on one occasion in seven years I've seen one of those not checked, and it wasn't box 12 that was empty.

Some additional info on 209A APO gun laws: http://www.mass.gov/courts/courtsan...revised209a-orderforms-criminalcomplaints.pdf
 
JC there is a hell of a lotta gun confiscation going on. Don't know where ro come from but the vawa was just renewed. That shit stinks to high heaven.

The violence against women's act was not just renewed. The senate passed it but they passed and expanded version last year too that includes a bunch of other things. The house passed an extension of the original and would not pass the expanded. I doubt they pass the expanded this time either, the jacka$$ chided the R's in congress last night in the state of the union.
 
Perhaps, but the one constant is that guns are ALWAYS seized. Boxes 1, 2, 3, and 12 are almost always checked, irrelevant to the circumstances serving as the basis for the order. I think on one occasion in seven years I've seen one of those not checked, and it wasn't box 12 that was empty.

Some additional info on 209A APO gun laws: http://www.mass.gov/courts/courtsan...revised209a-orderforms-criminalcomplaints.pdf

Yeah, I saw the GOAL link on RO's after I posted. The big thing is to get to RO lifted ASAP. Get that lifted and you get the guns back. But having an RO over you is a much bigger deal than the guns. If the other person wants to get you, they can get you in trouble quickly with that RO.

To anyone that says they would give the guns over in a situation like this, they are idiots. They have a court order, they are taking them nicely or after they arrest you. This isn't the gov't confiscating guns, it is a temporary order that you need to and can get reversed. The cops have no choice, they don't want to deal with this stuff but they are required to serve the orders.

If you don't give the guns and force them to arrest you, etc. The they will send them to some storage place and I'm sure your refusal and attitude will be a factor in license renewal. Get a good lawyer and get the order lifted.
 
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