Collecting a friend's guns after a restraining order..

[Len-2A Training]

What some may be missing is that ANY refusal to IMMEDIATELY hand over all guns/ammo/mags/licenses upon being handed a 209A makes you subject to criminal charges under MGL C. 269 S. 10 (a) & (h) per (i). (a) is a felony and the others misdemeanors with 2 year possible sentences. Bottom line is a conviction on these is a cake walk . . . and even if the RO itself is BS and revoked the next day, the 269 charges stick and make you a Federally PP for life!!

The only well-meaning contention in some above replies that I will disagree with is that some chiefs will NOT return the guns/ammo/mags or licenses upon lifting the 209A regardless. They are playing CYA. Some have policies of never reinstating or reissuing if you ever had a RO against you no matter how short a period or how long ago. If you have a decent chief, all may be well but we all know that there are some chiefs out there that use any excuse to yank a person's 2A rights or they simply don't believe in the Constitution at all.

 

[Climbnsink]

Yeah, I saw the GOAL link on RO's after I posted. The big thing is to get to RO lifted ASAP. Get that lifted and you get the guns back. But having an RO over you is a much bigger deal than the guns. If the other person wants to get you, they can get you in trouble quickly with that RO.

To anyone that says they would give the guns over in a situation like this, they are idiots. They have a court order, they are taking them nicely or after they arrest you. This isn't the gov't confiscating guns, it is a temporary order that you need to and can get reversed. The cops have no choice, they don't want to deal with this stuff but they are required to serve the orders.

If you don't give the guns and force them to arrest you, etc. The they will send them to some storage place and I'm sure your refusal and attitude will be a factor in license renewal. Get a good lawyer and get the order lifted.

Yes it is the gov't confiscating guns. As to saying no thank you to cops at the doorstep with an RO, whatever, I don't think these people realize that means you are Dorner in a burning house. But hey that is their personal problem.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

To anyone that says they would give the guns over in a situation like this, they are idiots. They have a court order, they are taking them nicely or after they arrest you. This isn't the gov't confiscating guns, it is a temporary order that you need to and can get reversed. The cops have no choice, they don't want to deal with this stuff but they are required to serve the orders.

When the come for the guns, you are in "the game" and have several choices:

- Play by the rules of the system that controls the courts, police force, etc. and work to undo the damage (fight the RO, take steps to make the the guns are not bonded warehoused, etc.). If you prevail, which can happen (after time, aggravation, money), you will be back to you former gun owning life.

- Physically resist or refuse entry to police with a warrant. This is called picking a fight you will lose.

- Hide some guns you think the state may not know about. But, if you get caught, conviction is a slam-dunk, you become federally prohibited, and any future possession of any guns or ammo brings a dang near mandatory federal prison sentence under the federal sentencing guidelines (with a limit of 15% off the sentence for good behavior max - no parole).

As a practical matter, #1 is the only one that has a prayer of resulting in an outcome that does not make you either a felon in possession, or non-gun owner, for the rest of your life. Despite the horror stories (there are many, and they are ofter accurate), I do know many people who have gone through the "TRO so spouse gets exclusive use of the house and gets to call the husband an abuser at the divorce hearing" who came throught it, got their LTC and guns back, and moved on with their life poorer, but wiser for the wear.

 

[DONALDG-HOG]

I have done this twice. Once in Taunton and once in Norton. Both situations I had to make an appointment, go in with paperwork proving that they had been transferred to me (FA10) and sign them out. Wasn't very difficult. As far as seial numbers ect.- bring the paperwork and the owner to the PD and do the transfer. As with everything in MA- I'm sure there is some dickhead making his own rules in each PD.

No, you need an FFL. Thank Chuck Schumer and Frank Lautenberg.

 

[Climbnsink]

Moral of the story; use your guns on your woman before you need to use them on the cops/sarcasm

 

[terraformer]

I was not aware that the Schumer/Lautenmberg amendment put this restriction on post-confiscation transfer, however, MGL is clear on the matter:

Yes, the MGL states this but have you ever asked yourself why? It makes no sense in the context of MA law to do this when buyers have universal licensing, any transfer back would involve an FA-10 and a license check. This procedure was a Brady Campaign wishlist item they put in place. It only makes a modicum of sense in a transfer system that includes universal background checks but no universal licensing. See §922(d) for the federal prohibition. Since once the order is in place, you can't possess them §922(g) and you can't transfer them §922(d), the only option is for confiscation by the cops and since you can't sell or transfer them to anyone but a dealer, the path is to an FFL only from there. NB: Cops aren't taking ownership of your guns, only temporary possession. CA's rules of civil procedure (California Code of Civil Procedure Section 527.9 - California Attorney Resources - California Laws) codify this process.

This goes to show just how long is the long ball that Brady has been playing. They put this in there before they had universal background checks knowing they would get there eventually.

 

[ptrainerchris]

Someone mentioned the possibility of having paperwork for transfer ready just in case. Is it possible to ask a dealer that if for any reason your guns need to be babysat that they will take them for you, for a fee of course. If so would this mean the firearms would go right to them than any warehouse? I mean if so that sounds like a good idea, kind of like a will but not. I have dated some crazy ass women before, and i think if they knew about this they would have pulled some of this crap on me a while ago.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

the path is to an FFL only from there

Nice info. So the real situation is the entity picking up 209A guns musthavfe an FFL to be federally compliant and a state license to be MGL compliant.

All MA gun owners should have a relationship with a gunshop or two, and make sure that one will be willing to do a "from PD" transfer in the event of an LTC revocation. Even with a non-209A, there is no assurance a PD making up its own rules won'r require a dealer and, by the time you hire Scriv to straighten it out, the guns will already be at Dowds.

Is it possible to ask a dealer that if for any reason your guns need to be babysat that they will take them for you, for a fee of course. If so would this mean the firearms would go right to them than any warehouse?

Yes, but this must be done BEFORE a 209A or other order of license revocation is served. It is very common for persons in divorce/breakup situations to do this (or an FA-10 transfer, limit 4/calender year) for some or all of their guns as a precaution.

 

[icyclefar]

Someone mentioned the possibility of having paperwork for transfer ready just in case. Is it possible to ask a dealer that if for any reason your guns need to be babysat that they will take them for you, for a fee of course. If so would this mean the firearms would go right to them than any warehouse? I mean if so that sounds like a good idea, kind of like a will but not. I have dated some crazy ass women before, and i think if they knew about this they would have pulled some of this crap on me a while ago.

Rather than worry about pre-planning your FA-10 paperwork, maybe you ought to work on improving your dating criteria first.

 

[drgrant]

Nice info. So the real situation is the entity picking up 209A guns musthavfe an FFL to be federally compliant and a state license to be MGL compliant.

All MA gun owners should have a relationship with a gunshop or two, and make sure that one will be willing to do a "from PD" transfer in the event of an LTC revocation. Even with a non-209A, there is no assurance a PD making up its own rules won'r require a dealer and, by the time you hire Scriv to straighten it out, the guns will already be at Dowds.
.

Depends on how jerkwadish the PD is. The most antis PDs will have Dowd take the guns ASAP. Others might let them sit around for awhile.

I agree with the advice though- regardless of how good/bad the PD is, the guns need to get to a "friendly" FFL yesterday- for a myriad of reasons, to prevent "missing" guns or terrible storage conditions. It wouldn't surprise me if some PD evidence storage consists of a locked room in a damp basement somewhere.

-Mike

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The most antis PDs will have Dowd take the guns ASAP. Others might let them sit around for awhile.

I know of one PD that is solidly green and has a chief with a great reputation, however, his policy is still "get them do Dowd ASAP, we don't want to deal with transfers arranged by the gun owner". This position appears to be motivated not by a desire to screw the gun owner, but by convenience and simplicity for the department. Dowd shows up, inventories and packs everything, and gives the PD an itemized inventory and receipt to show an MGL compliant warehouse transfer. Plus, since Dowd is a "known quantity", the PDs are probably more willing to just let him have access to the guns to do his thing and not devote an officer to watching his every move.

This illustrates one flaw with the system - the person paying the bill, and the person who is the de-facto "customer" (from a sales an vendor selection perspective) are different individuals, and the selector has no stake in the fee, terms or treatment once the guns are warehoused - and as a result, the gun owner is serviced in the same manner that a cow is serviced by a bull.

 

[ShadeWPI]

Rob,

You've touched on a common problem when dealing with the police in a number of matters. You find the same problem with a towed car. Most often, the police contact an independant towing company, and at that point the police are removed from liability.

Here are some points that you have in your favor:
Chapter 140 Section 129 - D

Such person, or his legal representative, shall have the right, at any time up to one year after said delivery or surrender, to transfer such firearms, rifles, shotguns and machine guns and ammunition to any licensed dealer or any other person legally permitted to purchase or take possession of such firearms, rifles, shotguns and machine guns and ammunition and upon notification in writing by the purchaser or transferee and the former owner, the licensing authority shall within ten days deliver such firearms, rifles, shotguns and machine guns and ammunition to the transferee or purchaser and due care shall be observed by the licensing authority in the receipt and holding of any such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun and ammunition.

By law, you can file a request with the authority to have the firearms transfer (limited to an FFL in the case of a 209A issue) and the licensing authority has 10 days to comply with that order. Ideally, you have this request written up ahead of time and an FFL prepared to recieve them, so that in the event that something happens, the 10 day clock can start ticking immediately. Also, legally, the PD does have a responsibility to ensure "due care" it provided for the firearms in reciept or holding. - A very difficult civil lawsuit, but the law does spell out that liability for due care.

The licensing authority, after taking possession of any firearm, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or ammunition by any means, may transfer possession of such weapon for storage purposes to a federally and state licensed dealer of such weapons and ammunition who operates a bonded warehouse on the licensed premises that is equipped with a safe for the secure storage of firearms and a weapon box or similar container for the secure storage of other weapons and ammunition;

They have the right to transfer them to a dealer or bonded warehouse for storage, but that doesn't absolve them of their resposibilities to comply with the previous paragraph, to transfer them per your request within 10 days.

Any such dealer that takes possession of a weapon under the provisions of this section shall: (i) inspect such weapon; (ii) issue to the owner a receipt indicating the make, model, caliber, serial number and condition of each weapon so received; and (iii) store and maintain all weapons so received in accordance with such regulations, rules or guidelines as the secretary of the executive office of public safety may establish under this section.

The dealer recieving the firearms has an obligation to the owner to issue a receipt of the firearms, including current condition. Legally, this is the dealers responsibility, not the PDs.

The owner shall be liable to such dealer for reasonable storage charges and may dispose of any such weapon as provided under this section by transfer to a person lawfully permitted to purchase or take possession of such weapon.

The owner is liable to the dealer for storage charges, which must be "reasonable" - another difficult legal battle, but if you can produce 3-4 quotes for storage by other dealers in your area - including 1 you have an order to transfer it to, you should be able to make a reasonable claim that a specific storage charge is "unreasonable" - but the owner still has the legal right to require that the recieving dealer (bonded warehouse) dispose of them per the owners requirements. Again, if this is a 209A issue, that transfer may only be to a licensed dealer.

Any such weapon that is stored and maintained by a licensed dealer as provided under this section may be so auctioned at the direction of: (i) the licensing authority at the expiration of one year following initial surrender or delivery to such licensing authority; or (ii) the dealer then in possession, if the storage charges for such weapon have been in arrears for 90 days; provided, however, that in either case, title shall pass to the licensed dealer for the purpose of transferring ownership to the auctioneer; and provided further, that in either case, after deduction and payment for storage charges and all necessary costs associated with such surrender and transfer, all surplus proceeds, if any, shall be immediately returned to the owner of such weapon..

Even if the firearms are transfered to a dealer, the dealer can't dispose of the firearms until the earlier of: 1 year from surrender or 90-days of lack of payment of storage fees, and then only if the owner has not disposed of them per the previous paragraphs. The means, immediately request a written quote of the storage fees and be prepared to pay for 10 days worth of storage (Fight the rate as unreasonable after the firearms have been transfered) and get the firearms transfered to a friendly dealer ASAP.


Keep in mind, that all of these are up-hill legal battles because you're "the bad guy" (you were served with a Protective Order - that makes you a bad guy) and you're asking the court to assign liability for your property to the good guys (the police who are just trying to protect the public from the bad-guy) but at least know when and where the letter of the law is on your side.

 

[Terminator03]

Some excellent advice contained in this thread! I almost feel like it should be stickied somewhere in one of the subforums. The really scary thing is that this could very well happen to any of us at any time whether it be from a scornful ex, or a disgruntled neighbor. Really sad that we live in a time when it is so easy to strip another person of their rights just because...

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Some excellent advice contained in this thread! I almost feel like it should be stickied somewhere in one of the subforums. The really scary thing is that this could very well happen to any of us at any time whether it be from a scornful ex, or a disgruntled neighbor. Really sad that we live in a time when it is so easy to strip another person of their rights just because...

Won't happen to me. My wife of 54 years would just anoint me with 6 rounds of .38spl out of her snubby. Jack.

 

[Hoover]

Some excellent advice contained in this thread! I almost feel like it should be stickied somewhere in one of the subforums. The really scary thing is that this could very well happen to any of us at any time whether it be from a scornful ex, or a disgruntled neighbor. Really sad that we live in a time when it is so easy to strip another person of their rights just because...

The cops don't like the RO laws because they know 90% are BS and one party is using the system and the cops to run rough shod over another person. The cops want to deal with real criminals and not this BS. The chiefs are the same, the court judges know many are crap but the pol's are the ones who set all this up.

You mention a disgruntled ex or neighbor. But the way the whole system is set up, you could get served a temporary restraining order with a complain from someone you've never even met. If some nut picks your name out of a hat and goes to a court and makes up a story of you threatening to kill her, her kids, etc. and they are terrified of you. You won't even know about it until you get the paper dropped off by a cop but the judge will issue the order. The process for the emergency temp RO is the judge hearing the story from one party, the other party doesn't even know the hearing is going on and boom you get a temp RO.

I'm sure the law explains the burden the party needs to overcome, etc. But your side will not be heard as you will not even know it's happening. There is no investigation to see if the claims are even remotely true, there is no nothing except the other parties statements. And if they lie, you are cooked. They can pretty much claim anything they want with no downside. You know they'd never waste money and time going after people for perjury, etc.

The system is terrible.

 

[Winchester73]

What Hoover says.

I know personally of multiple instances of where people were served with made-up RO's, including one instance where the poor guy was asleep on his couch. (the PD serving knew that it was BS as well, but had no choice but to serve it).

Even though it was proven at the hearings that the people who requested the RO's were lying, nothing was done to them. As long as there are no consequences for lying to a judge to obtain a RO then expect to continue to hear about people who are abused by the system.

 

[ptrainerchris]

+1 for sticky to this. I was going to browse a little next weekend. I have made a couple shop owners happy this past month, maybe network with them just in case!!!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The owner is liable to the dealer for storage charges, which must be "reasonable" - another difficult legal battle, but if you can produce 3-4 quotes for storage by other dealers in your area - including 1 you have an order to transfer it to, you should be able to make a reasonable claim that a specific storage charge is "unreasonable" - but the owner still has the legal right to require that the recieving dealer (bonded warehouse) dispose of them per the owners requirements. Again, if this is a 209A issue, that transfer may only be to a licensed dealer.

Sure you can, but there isn't a chance in hell that you will find an attorney to take suce a case on a contingency fee basis as the costs to fight any one case are typically in excess of the gun's value. The warehouse will simply say "fees will continue to accrue and no transfer will take place until the guns are auctioned to me, you pay the fees, or you obtain a court order and enforce it". Since civil cases take months or years, the guns will have been self-auctioned long before your case is even heard unless you have the skills to obtain an injunction preventing such.

Comm2A is currently engaged in federal litigation on just this sort of issue, however, as a director of the corporation, I cannot comment on the specifics of litigation in progress except to thank all of you whose donations have helped make it possible.

 

[SR556]

Yeah, I saw the GOAL link on RO's after I posted. The big thing is to get to RO lifted ASAP. Get that lifted and you get the guns back. But having an RO over you is a much bigger deal than the guns. If the other person wants to get you, they can get you in trouble quickly with that RO.

To anyone that says they would give the guns over in a situation like this, they are idiots. They have a court order, they are taking them nicely or after they arrest you. This isn't the gov't confiscating guns, it is a temporary order that you need to and can get reversed. The cops have no choice, they don't want to deal with this stuff but they are required to serve the orders.

If you don't give the guns and force them to arrest you, etc. The they will send them to some storage place and I'm sure your refusal and attitude will be a factor in license renewal. Get a good lawyer and get the order lifted.

What some may be missing is that ANY refusal to IMMEDIATELY hand over all guns/ammo/mags/licenses upon being handed a 209A makes you subject to criminal charges under MGL C. 269 S. 10 (a) & (h) per (i). (a) is a felony and the others misdemeanors with 2 year possible sentences. Bottom line is a conviction on these is a cake walk . . . and even if the RO itself is BS and revoked the next day, the 269 charges stick and make you a Federally PP for life!!

The only well-meaning contention in some above replies that I will disagree with is that some chiefs will NOT return the guns/ammo/mags or licenses upon lifting the 209A regardless. They are playing CYA. Some have policies of never reinstating or reissuing if you ever had a RO against you no matter how short a period or how long ago. If you have a decent chief, all may be well but we all know that there are some chiefs out there that use any excuse to yank a person's 2A rights or they simply don't believe in the Constitution at all.

Yes it is the gov't confiscating guns. As to saying no thank you to cops at the doorstep with an RO, whatever, I don't think these people realize that means you are Dorner in a burning house. But hey that is their personal problem.

When the come for the guns, you are in "the game" and have several choices:

- Play by the rules of the system that controls the courts, police force, etc. and work to undo the damage (fight the RO, take steps to make the the guns are not bonded warehoused, etc.). If you prevail, which can happen (after time, aggravation, money), you will be back to you former gun owning life.

- Physically resist or refuse entry to police with a warrant. This is called picking a fight you will lose.

- Hide some guns you think the state may not know about. But, if you get caught, conviction is a slam-dunk, you become federally prohibited, and any future possession of any guns or ammo brings a dang near mandatory federal prison sentence under the federal sentencing guidelines (with a limit of 15% off the sentence for good behavior max - no parole).

As a practical matter, #1 is the only one that has a prayer of resulting in an outcome that does not make you either a felon in possession, or non-gun owner, for the rest of your life. Despite the horror stories (there are many, and they are ofter accurate), I do know many people who have gone through the "TRO so spouse gets exclusive use of the house and gets to call the husband an abuser at the divorce hearing" who came throught it, got their LTC and guns back, and moved on with their life poorer, but wiser for the wear.

Summing up the bolded parts;

Any refusal to immediately and without hesitation comply with the state shall be met with your demise. It is best to do as they say like a good subject. Comply.

Be a good boy, play their game long enough, and put on a good show as you grovel for your rights back and maybe someday you will regain your right to keep and bear arms. Comply with the state. Resistance is futile.

How many of you were in the other threads when the panic was in full swing going on about "Molon Labe" and "they can have my guns, bullets first", and now here you are saying compliance with confiscation is the right thing to do?

What is the point of exercising your Second Amendment rights if you refuse to use them for their intended purpose?

 

[ShadeWPI]

Rob,

I do understand the kind of fight that is, and that unless you're talking about a major collection of highly valuable pieces, the value might not be there at all. I originally included a summery/advice section at that end that included - get a quote for the storage and pay for the 10 days immediately along with the request to have the firearms transfered to your "friendly" dealer, then fight the charges later after the guns are out of the bonded warehouse's hands.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What is the point of exercising your Second Amendment rights if you refuse to use them for their intended purpose?

Can you explain you plan for prevailing by offering physical resistance to the serving of a TRO?

Do you really think you will "win", the police will leave in defeat, and you will continue to go about your normal peaceful life?

Or, is you plan to sacrifice your life, freedom, fortune and/or non-felon status to make a point?

Seriously, what exactly is it you are suggesting, and what outcome do you expect?

I do understand the kind of fight that is, and that unless you're talking about a major collection of highly valuable pieces, the value might not be there at all. I originally included a summery/advice section at that end that included - get a quote for the storage and pay for the 10 days immediately along with the request to have the firearms transfered to your "friendly" dealer, then fight the charges later after the guns are out of the bonded warehouse's hands.

Yup - but for many of us on NES even a one day in and out fee for a bonded warehouse is going to run thousands due to the checkin fee, checkout fee and supplemental fee for transferring to someone other than the original owner from whom they were taken.

 

[SR556]

Can you explain you plan for prevailing by offering physical resistance to the serving of a TRO?

Do you really think you will "win", the police will leave in defeat, and you will continue to go about your normal peaceful life?

Or, is you plan to sacrifice your life, freedom, fortune and/or non-felon status to make a point?

Seriously, what exactly is it you are suggesting, and what outcome do you expect?



Yup - but for many of us on NES even a one day in and out fee for a bonded warehouse is going to run thousands due to the checkin fee, checkout fee and supplemental fee for transferring to someone other than the original owner from whom they were taken.

This is the problem with modern America and the reason we will never see a revolution, no matter how bad it gets. Too many people are worried about going to jail, or becoming a felon, or dying. I can tell you right now I will die long before I see my right to free speech, right to vote, keep and bear arms, etc. stripped from me. Call me a keyboard commando if you want, but there are still some of us real Americans left that actually believe in our BoR and know they are worth fighting for, even if it is a losing battle.

When the time comes for America to stand up and fight for their rights, I hope they aren't worried about their "felon status".

 

[Gaffer]

Don't leave any gun with the police. A fellow shooter had a mental breakdown and the family had the guns collected by the police for his safety. When they got them back years later they were all rusted and trash. Lost lots of value. If at all possible get them to someone else asap.

 

[OfficerObie59]

I agree that the 209A Abuse Prevention Orders are abused far too often, but 97% of those orders that are BS can be wholly prevented by steering clear of crazy women and unbalanced family members. You know who they are. And you know if your woman is crazy. Whether you choose to admit it to yourself is another matter.

 

[bigjesse1982]

hello,

I am in the same situation with an RO. Do you know of any friendly FFL's that will let me transfer my guns to them and sell them or store them?

 

[bigjesse1982]

Has anyone ever dealt with Attleboro PD? I am trying to talk to the property officer and can't get a hold of him and he isn't returning my voicemails. I just want to make sure my guns are still there because I have an RO now.

 

[drgrant]

You really need a lawyer to deal with this bullshit, frankly. I'd suggest calling someone like Jason Guida, yesterday, and not posting anything more about your RO online .

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

For a dealer, try B&K Sales in Natick. I understand that his storage rates are ~10% of what the big guys (that the PDs like) charge.

 

[skeetshooter]

i got a friend who is a good guy. wife is raping him legally. he had an ffl and everything. hello no due process prohibited person

 

[weekendracer]

In response to your rep comment;



Cops came for your friends guns. Friend gave them up. What did I miss?

Any gun owner that gives his guns up isn't worthy to own anything more than chains (heavy ones). Hopefully the guns go to auction and end up in the hands of a real American.

Cops aren't the ones who put the laws in place. Bad laws, even with good intent, need to be looked at and rational thought put into whether or not they should be on the books. This particular law was written in the heat of the moment, same as the AWB's that were penned after Colombine, Newtown, V. Tech, the list goes on.