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Class A LTC
- Thread starter tfourunner
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If you got your license after MA added the statuatory requirement for a course, either you missed something in class or your instructor did not do a good job of covering the relevant material.tfourunner said:
Producer
NES Member
Re: class A
My instructors were GREAT. I can't stress that enough. I knew alot going in there (thinking I knew everything), but did learn more.
However, during the training, we hit the range. I was just hanging out, picking my nose, waiting for the ammo to show up and one of the instructors said to me "Off the record, if the chief asks why you want a LTC, just say 'for all lawful purposes'"
Could there be a reason why they don't tell you that? They did mention restrictions, but never 'for all lawful purposes'.
tfourunner said:
My instructors were GREAT. I can't stress that enough. I knew alot going in there (thinking I knew everything), but did learn more.
However, during the training, we hit the range. I was just hanging out, picking my nose, waiting for the ammo to show up and one of the instructors said to me "Off the record, if the chief asks why you want a LTC, just say 'for all lawful purposes'"
Could there be a reason why they don't tell you that? They did mention restrictions, but never 'for all lawful purposes'.
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I don't want to sound rude or anything but if you have to ask this question you may want to do some research before actually ever carrying a gun. You should know more about the laws and restrictions and hopefully the safety. I know when I took my safety course years ago I didn't have time to pick my nose at the range. The instructors I had (Instructional Shooting/AG Guns) were awesome and very thorough and I would recommend them to anyone. If you were picking your nose instead of learning the safety rules maybe you should look into another sport.
Pete
Pete
Producer
NES Member
PistolPete said:
I did ace the NRA test. When we hit the range the man delievering the ammo was late by 20 minutes, so I was being sarcastic. I was just responding generally (specifically to fourunner's start of the thread) as if the instructors were told to avoid saying "all lawful purposes".
I don't know, I am not an instructor. Anyone know?
Well...hubby and I are instructors (NRA cert), and we always tell all our students to put down "for all lawful purposes". I do not know why he told you that the way he did as "FALP" comes straight from the MA general laws. It should have been covered more thoroughly in the class room part of the course. as part of the MA gun laws that you, as a gun owner in this state, needs to know about.
But...that's me (and a few other instructors on this board as well I would assume).
I'll refrain from knocking your instructor - however - there are a number of instructors that are not doing their job in the correct manner, and that tends to P me off....big time.
But...that's me (and a few other instructors on this board as well I would assume).
I'll refrain from knocking your instructor - however - there are a number of instructors that are not doing their job in the correct manner, and that tends to P me off....big time.
Producer
NES Member
They did cover the laws well. They went over how and when to carry, a, b and the typical restrictions that chiefs will give in various towns. I am amazed that some people say theirs is along the lines of "for target and hunting only." Is it more prevelant to see this restriction?
Producer said:
Oh dear... Yes. This is Massachusetts. Unless you are in a more rural area in Western MA then it is quite typically impossible to get a license issued for All Lawful Purpose. My husband and I are both certified insstructors. My license was issued in Somerville with Sporting and Target restrictions. I have so far been unable to get an ALP. My husband whose license was issued in Canton, also has the S&T restriction.
We've moved to a "green" (see packing.org) town and even now being in a good town we're not making much headway here, either.
In the course that we help teach we go in detail regarding the laws, local differences and the difficulties of acquiring an ALP license. I've never coached a student without them asking me about the process of applying for a license and discussing how difficult it can be. I'm kind of surprised by your post. But I'll try not to pass (too much) judgement about your instructor. :?
USMA-82
NES Member
Here's an analogy for our original poster:
"Hey, they gave me a driver's license... can I compete in the Daytona 500 now?"
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get some additional training!!!! Learning to load and unload, and use your gun safely IS NOT the same as learning to carry a concealed carry pistol. For your sake (and for the rest of us) please look into one of the many training opportunities out there with GOAL, SigArms Academy, Smith & Wesson Academy, LFI, and any number of other private schools.
Good Luck!
KK
PS: I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from carrying at some point - I feel self defense is your god-given right. I just want you to be prepared - that's all.
"Hey, they gave me a driver's license... can I compete in the Daytona 500 now?"
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get some additional training!!!! Learning to load and unload, and use your gun safely IS NOT the same as learning to carry a concealed carry pistol. For your sake (and for the rest of us) please look into one of the many training opportunities out there with GOAL, SigArms Academy, Smith & Wesson Academy, LFI, and any number of other private schools.
Good Luck!
KK
PS: I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from carrying at some point - I feel self defense is your god-given right. I just want you to be prepared - that's all.
some disapointing answers
Pistol Pete and USMC 82 - I come here to ask questions to get informed about what I am not positive about - I was pretty sure I knew what it meant, but wanted to use this forum as a way to get confirmation from other sources and perhaps stimulate some useful conversation. When people write things like "PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get some additional training"? or "I don't want to sound rude or anything but if you have to ask this question you may want to do some research before actually ever carrying a gun" it really disapoints me. I realize this is a forum so you can write whatever you want, but you should try to bring up your particapation quality quite a few notches to ensure this can be the best forum it can be.
Pistol Pete and USMC 82 - I come here to ask questions to get informed about what I am not positive about - I was pretty sure I knew what it meant, but wanted to use this forum as a way to get confirmation from other sources and perhaps stimulate some useful conversation. When people write things like "PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get some additional training"? or "I don't want to sound rude or anything but if you have to ask this question you may want to do some research before actually ever carrying a gun" it really disapoints me. I realize this is a forum so you can write whatever you want, but you should try to bring up your particapation quality quite a few notches to ensure this can be the best forum it can be.
Chris
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I think that all people were trying to do was help.
Yes, your Class A license that is "unrestricted" does allow you to carry a loaded handgun concealed in public with the exception of a few places within the state boundries of Massachusetts.
However, there is a significant difference between being 'able' to do something and knowing what you are doing. This is where I think many of my fellow instructors were going above.
No insults were intended. The fact is that the legal use of a firearm in self defense is extremely complicated both legally and tacticly.
You can even do everything perfect during the incident and then say one wrong thing after and be convicted of murder.
Think about it for a moment. What is the definition of murder? pretty much, "I meant to kill someone, and I did it". So if after a situation where you just fought for your life with some thug you happen to just blurt out "God, I just wanted to kill that mother..." Officer responding hears that, sees dead body and testifies to it in court.
Every single class i teach that is certified for an LTC ends with pretty much the same exact words. "Please get more training". I don't say this to get more money or teach more classes. in fact, I usually send people to other schools to get the best instruction i know. - Places i've spent my own money to attend.
And the whole reason for this is that the process of learning how to carry is rarely intuitive. I've never met a single person who didn't find it odd that when you carry, you are obligated to be meek and humble and walk away. In fact, you can be guilty of comitting a crime if you do not where another man who is unarmed may not even face charges. And you may not have even allowed the gun to be seen.
There is a whole area of knowing how to fight with a gun that has nothign to do with where your sights are and how you pull the trigger.
Have you run a Tuller Drill? No? Then how can you stand in court and explain when a person is 'too close'?
the unfortunate thing is that all these things are not "nice to know", but almost imperitive to know.
This is why I will fight for anyone's right to get a Class A ALP license, but in the next breath plead with them to seek out the training needed to exercise the responsibility that concealed carry brings with it.
I hope that this explains a little of why you got the responses you did. I commend you on seeking the ability to exercise your god given rights of self-defense that our tyrany of government forces honest people to do. I also plead with you that you seek out skills and knowledge that will make that ability as effective as possible.
Yes, your Class A license that is "unrestricted" does allow you to carry a loaded handgun concealed in public with the exception of a few places within the state boundries of Massachusetts.
However, there is a significant difference between being 'able' to do something and knowing what you are doing. This is where I think many of my fellow instructors were going above.
No insults were intended. The fact is that the legal use of a firearm in self defense is extremely complicated both legally and tacticly.
You can even do everything perfect during the incident and then say one wrong thing after and be convicted of murder.
Think about it for a moment. What is the definition of murder? pretty much, "I meant to kill someone, and I did it". So if after a situation where you just fought for your life with some thug you happen to just blurt out "God, I just wanted to kill that mother..." Officer responding hears that, sees dead body and testifies to it in court.
Every single class i teach that is certified for an LTC ends with pretty much the same exact words. "Please get more training". I don't say this to get more money or teach more classes. in fact, I usually send people to other schools to get the best instruction i know. - Places i've spent my own money to attend.
And the whole reason for this is that the process of learning how to carry is rarely intuitive. I've never met a single person who didn't find it odd that when you carry, you are obligated to be meek and humble and walk away. In fact, you can be guilty of comitting a crime if you do not where another man who is unarmed may not even face charges. And you may not have even allowed the gun to be seen.
There is a whole area of knowing how to fight with a gun that has nothign to do with where your sights are and how you pull the trigger.
Have you run a Tuller Drill? No? Then how can you stand in court and explain when a person is 'too close'?
the unfortunate thing is that all these things are not "nice to know", but almost imperitive to know.
This is why I will fight for anyone's right to get a Class A ALP license, but in the next breath plead with them to seek out the training needed to exercise the responsibility that concealed carry brings with it.
I hope that this explains a little of why you got the responses you did. I commend you on seeking the ability to exercise your god given rights of self-defense that our tyrany of government forces honest people to do. I also plead with you that you seek out skills and knowledge that will make that ability as effective as possible.
Chris, and the other instructors/people in the know.
You bring up some valuable points, and with them a question comes to mind on training. As a new LTC-A/ALP holder, I'm now wondering how to proceed with training, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I've been looking through the archives of the Training forum on here, and have done web searches on courses available, and there's enough stuff out there to make it perplexing.
So, my question is, what type or progression would be recommended as far as courses go for a new holder of a concealed carry license? I'm thinking of starting with GOAL's The Art of Concealed Carry in Massachusetts.
At this point I still don't see myself going beyond concealed carry in a "woods gun" capacity, and I got my permit in the first place for home defense, but now that I've been given an ALP, I'm feeling the weight of responsibility to know what I now carry, if not in a holster at the moment, but in my back pocket in my wallet.
You bring up some valuable points, and with them a question comes to mind on training. As a new LTC-A/ALP holder, I'm now wondering how to proceed with training, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I've been looking through the archives of the Training forum on here, and have done web searches on courses available, and there's enough stuff out there to make it perplexing.
So, my question is, what type or progression would be recommended as far as courses go for a new holder of a concealed carry license? I'm thinking of starting with GOAL's The Art of Concealed Carry in Massachusetts.
At this point I still don't see myself going beyond concealed carry in a "woods gun" capacity, and I got my permit in the first place for home defense, but now that I've been given an ALP, I'm feeling the weight of responsibility to know what I now carry, if not in a holster at the moment, but in my back pocket in my wallet.
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tfourunner- What I said was not in any way, shape or form meant to be rude. HOWEVER, I stated what I did because of your own safety. If you are unsure of what a Class A LTC for All Lawful Purpose is for then it is pretty safe to say you are UNFAMILIAR with the other laws relating to concealed carry. I see way too many new shooters get their LTC and all of a sudden think they are Rambo. I congratulate you on getting your Class A LTC and it is definately great that you did BUT with that permit comes even more responsibility. I hate to see you lose your license for the wrong reason. And, just because you carry a gun doesn't mean you won't lose a fight. I would recommend if you plan on carrying to take some self defense courses both armed and unarmed. Chances are if you are in a conflict your hand to hand techniques will come into play much sooner than you'll be able to get to your gun. Sorry for sounding so harsh but I just want you to realize the responsiblities on your half to learn the laws and to abide by them.
Happy shooting,
Pete
Happy shooting,
Pete
USMA-82
NES Member
GOAL'S "Art of Concealed Carry" is a GREAT way to start. It's a quick introduction to equipment, laws and MIND-SET that will leave you with a very important desire - to get more training and learn more.
I also want to apologize to you, tfourunner, if I came across harsh - not my intent. But in a subsequent review of your prior posts, it is pretty evident that you are relatively new to the concealed carry concept.
Someone once asked me when I began feeling confident of my abilities with a concealed carry weapon - the answer was NEVER! I always feel there is more to learn, and there will always be the need to constantly retrain and sharpen your skills.
I did know I was mentally ready to carry when, instead of feeling uncomfortable walking around with a gun, I started feeling uncomfortable if I didn't have it with me!
KK
I also want to apologize to you, tfourunner, if I came across harsh - not my intent. But in a subsequent review of your prior posts, it is pretty evident that you are relatively new to the concealed carry concept.
Someone once asked me when I began feeling confident of my abilities with a concealed carry weapon - the answer was NEVER! I always feel there is more to learn, and there will always be the need to constantly retrain and sharpen your skills.
I did know I was mentally ready to carry when, instead of feeling uncomfortable walking around with a gun, I started feeling uncomfortable if I didn't have it with me!
KK
Chris
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You need to know what you 'want' to do.
"Man needs to know his limitations"
Seriously.
If you want to just 'Do It' and get the best damn intro to carry there is, sign up for an LFI course up in New Hampshire. Lethal Force Institute run by Mas Ayoob is hands down the finest I've ever had for what it covers.
If a week of your time, $800 and a case of ammo is a little much, there are other alternatives.
GOAL's Art of Conceale Carry is a nice primer to be sure. For the time it has, I don't think you'll find more information for your hour or dollar.
I also like Lyn Bates class "Responsible Use of Lethal Force" and "Self-Protection with Handguns" taught by AWARE (www.AWARE.org)
SIG's Defensive Handgun course is great for the shooting drills, but I found the legal bit a wee light.
I have not tried the Smith and Wesson classes yet, but hear that they also do a great pistol tactics offering.
I've done the Gunsite and Front Site classes as well, but frankly, with the exception of the wide open spaces, instruction here is as good or better than what I had there. (although the round counts at Gunsite were amazing)
I still have to make one of the PSI clases by John Peterson, but knowing the folks involved, I can tell you that the caliber of instruction is quite high.
The staff at Riverside are working on an defensive pistol course, and will continue to bring in guest instructors.
I can also reccomend reading Mas Ayoob's "The Truth About Self-Protection". Chapter One does a fine job of really describing what it is that you will be facing if the animal comes for you. The rest of the book is good quality information. However, no book is going to beat a live instructor.
Most importantly, go out and practice. Get to know your gun in various weather types. I'll never forget one of the first Action Pistol events we had (this was before we were IDPA) where it was cold, damp, and drizzling. Every single 1911 style pistol that day had feed problems. Glocks would not seat their magazines properly, and just about everyone had some kind of equipment issues.
Most clubs allow the following drill - if not, meet with the board and see if you can get permission to do it.
Drive a tent spike into the berm near the top. Tie some paracord (or other strong but light cord) to the spike and then to a large empty laundry bottle near the bottom of the berm.
Fill your gun. You want to get the bottle moving. If you shoot the bottle, it will sit there and start looking like swiss cheese. If you hit just below the bottle, the bottle will jump. In the beginning, focus on making each hit cause the bottle to jump. Later, as you get good, seek to keep the bottle moving until you run out of ammo.
I then took this and started informal 'Action Shoots' with cover and odd shooting positions.
Eventually that became IDPA. The idea is that the shooting becomes second nature. You point the gun and you hit your target. Man size targets at combat distances are not tough shots, but you need to get to the point that YOU are confident that you can make the shot on demand.
At this point, you can start adding the tactics, shoot/no-shoot decisions, etc.
Set goals and achieve them. Somethng simple like "This month, I will shoot the bottle and half my shots will send it flying." Simple achievable gols are best. Doesn't matter if you end up setting thee goals in one afternoon if you are on a roll. Expect that you will have 'off' days and forget the goal and just have fun.
Get involved with a competition. Even if it is some informal club thing between buddies. ONLY when you are pressed to exceed your ability will you do so.
If at any time you make the effort become 'work', stop and reevaluate. When it is no longer just fun, it might be a signal that you are either trying too hard, or perhaps you need someone to watch you to find what you are missing. I've seen top High Master shooters call over more novice friends to watch them shoot because even the most obvious of things can be completely invisible to yourself, but appear as if in a spotlight to an observer.
Hope that helps.
Chris
"Man needs to know his limitations"
Seriously.
If you want to just 'Do It' and get the best damn intro to carry there is, sign up for an LFI course up in New Hampshire. Lethal Force Institute run by Mas Ayoob is hands down the finest I've ever had for what it covers.
If a week of your time, $800 and a case of ammo is a little much, there are other alternatives.
GOAL's Art of Conceale Carry is a nice primer to be sure. For the time it has, I don't think you'll find more information for your hour or dollar.
I also like Lyn Bates class "Responsible Use of Lethal Force" and "Self-Protection with Handguns" taught by AWARE (www.AWARE.org)
SIG's Defensive Handgun course is great for the shooting drills, but I found the legal bit a wee light.
I have not tried the Smith and Wesson classes yet, but hear that they also do a great pistol tactics offering.
I've done the Gunsite and Front Site classes as well, but frankly, with the exception of the wide open spaces, instruction here is as good or better than what I had there. (although the round counts at Gunsite were amazing)
I still have to make one of the PSI clases by John Peterson, but knowing the folks involved, I can tell you that the caliber of instruction is quite high.
The staff at Riverside are working on an defensive pistol course, and will continue to bring in guest instructors.
I can also reccomend reading Mas Ayoob's "The Truth About Self-Protection". Chapter One does a fine job of really describing what it is that you will be facing if the animal comes for you. The rest of the book is good quality information. However, no book is going to beat a live instructor.
Most importantly, go out and practice. Get to know your gun in various weather types. I'll never forget one of the first Action Pistol events we had (this was before we were IDPA) where it was cold, damp, and drizzling. Every single 1911 style pistol that day had feed problems. Glocks would not seat their magazines properly, and just about everyone had some kind of equipment issues.
Most clubs allow the following drill - if not, meet with the board and see if you can get permission to do it.
Drive a tent spike into the berm near the top. Tie some paracord (or other strong but light cord) to the spike and then to a large empty laundry bottle near the bottom of the berm.
Fill your gun. You want to get the bottle moving. If you shoot the bottle, it will sit there and start looking like swiss cheese. If you hit just below the bottle, the bottle will jump. In the beginning, focus on making each hit cause the bottle to jump. Later, as you get good, seek to keep the bottle moving until you run out of ammo.
I then took this and started informal 'Action Shoots' with cover and odd shooting positions.
Eventually that became IDPA. The idea is that the shooting becomes second nature. You point the gun and you hit your target. Man size targets at combat distances are not tough shots, but you need to get to the point that YOU are confident that you can make the shot on demand.
At this point, you can start adding the tactics, shoot/no-shoot decisions, etc.
Set goals and achieve them. Somethng simple like "This month, I will shoot the bottle and half my shots will send it flying." Simple achievable gols are best. Doesn't matter if you end up setting thee goals in one afternoon if you are on a roll. Expect that you will have 'off' days and forget the goal and just have fun.
Get involved with a competition. Even if it is some informal club thing between buddies. ONLY when you are pressed to exceed your ability will you do so.
If at any time you make the effort become 'work', stop and reevaluate. When it is no longer just fun, it might be a signal that you are either trying too hard, or perhaps you need someone to watch you to find what you are missing. I've seen top High Master shooters call over more novice friends to watch them shoot because even the most obvious of things can be completely invisible to yourself, but appear as if in a spotlight to an observer.
Hope that helps.
Chris
Can I retract my statement?
After reading Pete and USMC's follow up comments and those of others I realize that I may have read way too far into Pete's and USMC's posts. I think the spirit of what you had to say is very valid and should be heeded by anyone considering carrying concealed.
After reading Pete and USMC's follow up comments and those of others I realize that I may have read way too far into Pete's and USMC's posts. I think the spirit of what you had to say is very valid and should be heeded by anyone considering carrying concealed.
USMA-82
NES Member
If there is still room in GOAL's "Art of Concealed Carry" class, you should try to sign up. I know it's a long haul from Wakefield for a Friday night, but it would be WELL worth your time.
The next class is March 3rd. Call Jon Green at 508-393-5333 to reserve a seat.
Good Luck!
The next class is March 3rd. Call Jon Green at 508-393-5333 to reserve a seat.
Good Luck!
I'll be signing up for the May GOAL class, and Chris's post is a pretty good guide for a direction to head in. If I can swing it I'm going to take a multi-day this summer, and, while it's not exactly concealed carry training (exactly), I just registered for the Riverside IDPA class.
