Christian Social People's Party

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maee

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Recently, I was reading a NY Times article that referred to the "Christian Social People's Party" in Luxembourg, and I got to thinking, that party name is actually one big conglomeration of almost every anti-gun related word in the English dictionary! All they need to do is maybe add a Democratic or Liberation and it would be complete! Imagine the gun control position of a Democratic Christian Social People's Liberation Party!! [rofl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Social_People%27s_Party
 
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Pro gun Christian checking in here. [wink]

The last thing Jesus told the assembled group of disciples before He was arrested and subsequently killed can be found in Luke 22:35-38.

"...and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

[grin]
 
GSG said:
Pro gun Christian checking in here. [wink]

The last thing Jesus told the assembled group of disciples before He was arrested and subsequently killed can be found in Luke 22:35-38.

"...and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

[grin]
Click to expand...

Does this not contradict the "Turn the other cheek" teaching?
 
BOBKATT said:
Does this not contradict the "Turn the other cheek" teaching?
Click to expand...
No. Christ sermon on the Mount Mathew 5:39 is said in reference to the Old Testiment "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth". (Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21) It's speaking of getting back at someone or revenge. It is not speaking of self defense.

God gave me a beautiful wife and two children to raise and protect. Anyone trying to harm them will meet my God and they can discuss with Him if my actions were right or wrong.
 
stoneypete said:
No. Christ sermon on the Mount Mathew 5:39 is said in reference to the Old Testiment "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth". (Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21) It's speaking of getting back at someone or revenge. It is not speaking of self defense.
Click to expand...

So, basically turning your cheek in regard to revenge? Therefore if someone were to put you in immediate danger, you should defend yourself. However, if someone were to cause you harm, and say you survived the ordeal, you should not go aftwerwards and start any more trouble to get back at the person. Is this correct?
 
GSG said:
Pro gun Christian checking in here. [wink]

The last thing Jesus told the assembled group of disciples before He was arrested and subsequently killed can be found in Luke 22:35-38.

"...and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

[grin]
Click to expand...

I just had this discussion with my very Christian-bible-studying-sister-in-law. She agreed 100%. She saw no conflict in using violence to defend the innocent. IMO, she's a lot closer to God then 80% of the priests I know out there so I'll take her word for it. [smile]
 
BOBKATT said:
So, basically turning your cheek in regard to revenge? Therefore if someone were to put you in immediate danger, you should defend yourself. However, if someone were to cause you harm, and say you survived the ordeal, you should not go aftwerwards and start any more trouble to get back at the person. Is this correct?
Click to expand...
PM sent. I don't want to derail this thread.[smile]
 
Another "clinger" here. [smile]




BOBKATT said:
So, basically turning your cheek in regard to revenge? Therefore if someone were to put you in immediate danger, you should defend yourself. However, if someone were to cause you harm, and say you survived the ordeal, you should not go aftwerwards and start any more trouble to get back at the person. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

That has always been my interpretation of it. Life is precious, thus, should be defended. It's also why people who would lay down their own lives in defense of others have always been held in high esteem. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

It's one of the reasons that I generally hold military, police, fire personnel, etc. in high regard. They have made a conscious decision to put their lives on the line.
 
center442 said:
Another "clinger" here. [smile]






That has always been my interpretation of it. Life is precious, thus, should be defended. It's also why people who would lay down their own lives in defense of others have always been held in high esteem. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

It's one of the reasons that I generally hold military, police, fire personnel, etc. in high regard. They have made a conscious decision to put their lives on the line.
Click to expand...


I think that much of Jesus' turn the cheek analogy was symbolic of the way the Romans treated the Jews at the time. In this sense, one can also look at the turning of the cheek as empowerment through refusing to acknowledge the evil doings of others against themselves, as having any kind of legitimate effect on who they are. This promotes strength through peace. I do not think that Jesus was referring to self-defense in this analogy. I believe that it was more of a lesson for tit-for-tat retaliation for minor wrongdoings.
 
Gun owning Christian here.

Turning the other cheek refered speciffically to being slapped in the face, or in other words insulted, but not significantly harmed. While being slapped in the face may sting for a few minutes, there is very little if any lasting physical effect, similar to being insulted, you may be pissed off for a few minutes but not much more. Turn the other cheak, shake it off, and walk away. That sermon made no reference to a life threatening situation, only a pride threatening one.
 
BOBKATT said:
I think that much of Jesus' turn the cheek analogy was symbolic of the way the Romans treated the Jews at the time. In this sense, one can also look at the turning of the cheek as empowerment through refusing to acknowledge the evil doings of others against themselves, as having any kind of legitimate effect on who they are. This promotes strength through peace. I do not think that Jesus was referring to self-defense in this analogy. I believe that it was more of a lesson for tit-for-tat retaliation for minor wrongdoings.
Click to expand...

No disagreement from me on this, either historically or philosophically. Bobkatt's post/question seemed to be about differentiating between self defense and revenge/vengeance in general; at least that's the way I took it.

I don't think being a Christian has any conflict with defending yourself when threatened. Personally, I would draw the line at seeking physical revenge/vengeance after the fact against someone who tried to do me harm. IOW, if I'm attacked I have no moral compunction as a Christian about defending myself with whatever tools are at hand until the threat is neutralized. I wouldn't feel morally justified in continuing beyond that point. I'm not that much of a Biblical scholar to know where Jesus would weigh in on that. It's an interesting question.

My apologies if my comments caused any misunderstanding. [grin]
 
BOBKATT said:
Does this not contradict the "Turn the other cheek" teaching?
Click to expand...

To expand on what others have said...

Luke 6:27-31 Luke 6:27-31is where it talks about turning the other cheek:

27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Click to expand...

He's talking about insults, curses, mistreatment. Those are minor things, things that are clearly not worth taking someone's life over.

In the next chapter Jesus talks to a soldier.

Luke 7:1-10
1When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
Click to expand...

A soldier is clearly someone who may be required to take the life of another. But when talking to the centurion, Jesus didn't tell him "quit your job, killing is bad." Jesus told everyone He talked to what they needed to do specifically in their lives to be living the right way (like with the rich man He talked to in Luke 9:57-62).

When He sent out the disciples in Luke 10:2-4 He said (in part)

1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
Click to expand...

Then later, just before He was arrested, He said the following in Luke 22:35-36

35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
Click to expand...

He's clearly referencing the first time that He sent them out, and telling them that times are going to change.

And the Greek word He used for "sword" there was "machaira," which means "a short sword or dagger," meaning not the equivalent of a Swiss Army Knife or something, but a weapon.

Basically, IMO modern Western society has ignored, overlooked or covered up much of what Jesus said for their own reasons, but the answers are in the Bible.
 
GSG said:
To expand on what others have said...

Luke 6:27-31 Luke 6:27-31is where it talks about turning the other cheek:



He's talking about insults, curses, mistreatment. Those are minor things, things that are clearly not worth taking someone's life over.

In the next chapter Jesus talks to a soldier.

Luke 7:1-10


A soldier is clearly someone who may be required to take the life of another. But when talking to the centurion, Jesus didn't tell him "quit your job, killing is bad." Jesus told everyone He talked to what they needed to do specifically in their lives to be living the right way (like with the rich man He talked to in Luke 9:57-62).

When He sent out the disciples in Luke 10:2-4 He said (in part)



Then later, just before He was arrested, He said the following in Luke 22:35-36



He's clearly referencing the first time that He sent them out, and telling them that times are going to change.

And the Greek word He used for "sword" there was "machaira," which means "a short sword or dagger," meaning not the equivalent of a Swiss Army Knife or something, but a weapon.

Basically, IMO modern Western society has ignored, overlooked or covered up much of what Jesus said for their own reasons, but the answers are in the Bible.
Click to expand...

Good post, I agree with this viewpoint as well. +1
 
Enough!

Pro-gun Christian checking in. I read the first half-dozen posts, then stopped because all this crap has been posted in a half-dozen recent threads already. This is redundant.

Would you non-Christian amatuer theologans please stop trying to tell Christians what to believe? We have enough to talk about even amongst each other. Your sophomoric babble is tedious, tiresome, and not at all helpful.

Read the Old and New Testaments, take a college class on Comparative Religion, do a little Bible study and then rejoin the conversation. Until then, please shut the f*** up.

And would you trolls please go and f*** yourselves? Because your many attempts to do the divide-and-conquer thing are becoming irksome. The religion meme is only your most recent wedge. Your motivation is pretty clear.

Stop it.

(I'm sorry. I saif "f***" two times. I mean three. Plese don't make use curse words again. Real Christians don't cuss, nor drink, nor dance, nor even ... f***. Right, you secularist ignorant libtard f***s? Oops ... I said two more "f***s". Ten Hail Mary's and a case of beer for me ...)
 

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