Canada's bid to replace WWII-era pistols a case study in government incompetence

[Wendell]

We first tried to replace the pistols in 2011, a mere, uh, 11 years ago. We failed — the contract was so picky and restrictive, it failed to attract bidders. In 2016, the government tried again. The proposed budget was between $50- and $100-million. The “anticipated timeline” for the delivery of the new pistols was somewhere between 2026 and 2036 — 10 to 20 years out! To be clear: with a budget of up to $100 million, the Canadian government anticipated needing as much as 20 years to do something the British did in two years for under $15 million. If that sounds like a disaster in the making, don’t worry. It never happened. That procurement process failed, too. Or, more precisely, it just fizzled and went nowhere, until 2020, when the government said it would move forward, this time with a goal of procuring the pistols in two years — by the end of 2022. In early 2021, the government had a draft proposal ready, seeking 8,000 pistols by the summer of 2022 (with options for 16,500 more). But then one of the would-be bidders complained that the process was rigged, so it was reviewed, and then, in November, the Canadian International Trade Tribunal agreed that the proposal was inappropriately written, in part. So the federal government cancelled it, again, and hopes to try again in the spring… There is nothing about the pistols or the gun manufacturers that’s causing a problem here, no technological breakthroughs that are required or production bugs to iron out. This is entirely on us — we can’t procure pistols for the military because our government is incompetent.

Matt Gurney: Canada's bid to replace WWII-era pistols a case study in government incompetence

The pistols in the Canadian military's inventory were built during the Second World War, which ended 77 years ago. We've been trying to replace them for over a…

nationalpost.com

 

[MisterHappy]

Guy one, "I"m a Canadian, eh?"

Guy two, "What's a 'Canadian'?"

Guy one, "It's like an American, but without a gun!"


Guess it's their army people, too....eh?

 

[JRLB]

Guy one, "I"m a Canadian, eh?"

Guy two, "What's a 'Canadian'?"

Guy one, "It's like an American, but without a gun!"


Guess it's their army people, too....eh?

Inside every Canadian there’s an American trying to get out.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

They adopted the Ross. What else is there to say?

Though the C1A1 is cool...

 

[Jsfitzgerald85]

government makes everything so much more complicated than it has to be. All Canada has to do is 1 of 2 things. Either just go out and buy $8000 Glock 17s or 19s, or buy a few copies of several pistols and a metric crap ton of ammo and have a good weekend shooting them. Find out which one works best of the ones you chose then buy 8000 of them.

Problem solved.

 

[Picton]

The worst part is that I don't think they've got a CMP up there. So all those old Inglis and HP pistols with years of service, which people like me would love to have, are probably going to get scrapped and turned into lawnmower blades or something.

Seriously, Canada, I don't like Glocks... but just buy some damn Glocks.

 

[snax]

I think this was Canada, tried to find video, cant.... short version:
staircase in park connecting two walkways at different elevations needed replacement, people were walking down hill, and falling (stairs blocked off)
city had put replacement out to bid, getting quotes in the 200k range...
contractor sneaks in, removes old stairs, replaces it for like 2-3k out of his own pocket (exact replacement, to code)
city politicians lose their minds over it.
this one good too

View: https://youtu.be/qKRuhiMDOjo

if it's not incompetence, its waste... or both.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

The worst part is that I don't think they've got a CMP up there. So all those old Inglis and HP pistols with years of service, which people like me would love to have, are probably going to get scrapped and turned into lawnmower blades or something.

Seriously, Canada, I don't like Glocks... but just but some damn Glocks.

There used to be regional civilian marksmanship clubs that ordered guns from places like Inglis, but it wasn't a "consumer military surplus DOD supply" situation like DCM/CMP. The few C1s on the market (I think including some with fun switches) got there that way.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

 

[milktree]

They should just buy the new Springfield Armory Hi-Power, or the new FN Hi-Power. Don't need to re-train anyone!

 

[Picton]

There used to be regional civilian marksmanship clubs that ordered guns from places like Inglis, but it wasn't a "consumer military surplus DOD supply" situation like DCM/CMP. The few C1s on the market (I think including some with fun switches) got there that way.

I love how Ian just has one of 20 prototypes lying casually on the floor next to him.

People dig those C1 sights. Like the Inglis: best BHP sights out there.

Those Canucks just love their sights, eh.

 

[VetteGirlMA]

8,000 pistols? For the entire army? That's rookie numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people out there with 8000 pistols never mind an army lol.

 

[Palladin]

I think this was Canada, tried to find video, cant.... short version:
staircase in park connecting two walkways at different elevations needed replacement, people were walking down hill, and falling (stairs blocked off)
city had put replacement out to bid, getting quotes in the 200k range...
contractor sneaks in, removes old stairs, replaces it for like 2-3k out of his own pocket (exact replacement, to code)
city politicians lose their minds over it.
this one good too

View: https://youtu.be/qKRuhiMDOjo

if it's not incompetence, its waste... or both.

wow. as someone who has been in construction their entire adult life, even I find this absolutely Ludacris

 

[cockpitbob]

The worst part is that I don't think they've got a CMP up there. So all those old Inglis and HP pistols with years of service, which people like me would love to have, are probably going to get scrapped and turned into lawnmower blades or something.

Seriously, Canada, I don't like Glocks... but just buy some damn Glocks.

Just what I was thinking. If they ever overcome their incompetence, Canada will grind up thousands of beautiful old Browning Hi Powers

 

[Blackmore]

8,000 pistols? For the entire army? That's rookie numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people out there with 8000 pistols never mind an army lol.

"Other ranks" don't get sidearms?

 

[garandman]

WWII vintage Brownings are worth….?

 

[Palladin]

I think this was Canada, tried to find video, cant.... short version:
staircase in park connecting two walkways at different elevations needed replacement, people were walking down hill, and falling (stairs blocked off)
city had put replacement out to bid, getting quotes in the 200k range...
contractor sneaks in, removes old stairs, replaces it for like 2-3k out of his own pocket (exact replacement, to code)
city politicians lose their minds over it.
this one good too

View: https://youtu.be/qKRuhiMDOjo

if it's not incompetence, its waste... or both.

Found it. Final cost $10,000

City of Toronto to tear down $550 park stairs, says man who built them

The maverick Toronto handyman who erected a $550 set of stairs in a community park says the city is going to tear them down and build a more expensive replacement that meets its construction standards.

www.ctvnews.ca

Park's homemade staircase leads to pointless city hall bureaucracy: Keenan

City’s estimate that replacement steps will cost between $65,000 and $150,000 just seems way out of whack.

www.thestar.com

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tom-riley-park-stairs-rebuilt-1.4227365

 

[Dennis in MA]

Grizzled NES members: "The US Army never needed to upgrade from the 1911. It was a great pistol and still the greatest in the world. Age just proves how effective it is."

Same grizzled NES members: "Stupid Canadian army using 70yo John Browning pistols. What douches!"

 

[240Geezer]

8,000 pistols? For the entire army? That's rookie numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people out there with 8000 pistols never mind an army lol.

I think some member here was offing a bunch of his "collection" and there was obscene number of pistols.
I say obscene only out of jealousy

 

[FiremanBob]

It was never about the pistols. Every bureaucrat, civilian and military, got paid full salary and benefits including pension credits, throughout the process. It is about getting paid to do nothing. A contract will be made when someone at the top of the decision chain gets cash or foreign bank deposit under the table.

 

[DarrenL]

Remember it's not just incompetence, its corruption. All government contracts, at all levels, are written so somebody gets to steal money. The 200k isn't for the stairs, its to pad people's pockets. Same with the pistol contract. They rigged the contracts to be able to steal money. You cannot just go out and buy glocks because there is no opportunity for graft. If you look at it through a corruption lens, it actually makes sense (for enabling of corruption, at least)

Also, what Firemanbob said

 

[fencer]

There is an old joke in the fence business...

The fence at the White House needed updating, so the job was put out to bid. The first bid was from a company in Dallas for $100k. The second bid was from a company in Atlanta for $110k. The final bid was from a company in Boston for $2.1 million.
Upon reviewing the bids, the Chairman of the Appropriations Committee was furious and called the Boston contractor to explain his obvious mistake.
When asked how the $2.1 million figure was arrived at he said... " Simple. A million for you, a million for me, and we hire the moron from Dallas."

 

[snax]

Found it. Final cost $10,000

City of Toronto to tear down $550 park stairs, says man who built them

The maverick Toronto handyman who erected a $550 set of stairs in a community park says the city is going to tear them down and build a more expensive replacement that meets its construction standards.

www.ctvnews.ca

Park's homemade staircase leads to pointless city hall bureaucracy: Keenan

City’s estimate that replacement steps will cost between $65,000 and $150,000 just seems way out of whack.

www.thestar.com

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tom-riley-park-stairs-rebuilt-1.4227365

boy, I was way off in both directions. still a ridiculous gap

 

[tuna]

Meh - just how bad are these Hi-Powers? Do they really need to be replaced or can they just be repaired? I'd be much happier with one than the M9 I carried.

 

[namedpipes]

I think this was Canada, tried to find video, cant.... short version:
staircase in park connecting two walkways at different elevations needed replacement, people were walking down hill, and falling (stairs blocked off)
city had put replacement out to bid, getting quotes in the 200k range...
contractor sneaks in, removes old stairs, replaces it for like 2-3k out of his own pocket (exact replacement, to code)
city politicians lose their minds over it.
this one good too

View: https://youtu.be/qKRuhiMDOjo

if it's not incompetence, its waste... or both.

Stairs guy. I recall that as some old guy that fixed it (and well) himself. If he was a contractor he had retired.

There's actually a thread on this very site about it.

Paging @AHM

 

[namedpipes]

Found it. Final cost $10,000

City of Toronto to tear down $550 park stairs, says man who built them

The maverick Toronto handyman who erected a $550 set of stairs in a community park says the city is going to tear them down and build a more expensive replacement that meets its construction standards.

www.ctvnews.ca

Park's homemade staircase leads to pointless city hall bureaucracy: Keenan

City’s estimate that replacement steps will cost between $65,000 and $150,000 just seems way out of whack.

www.thestar.com

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tom-riley-park-stairs-rebuilt-1.4227365

Never mind, AHM!

 

[whatluck]

government makes everything so much more complicated than it has to be. All Canada has to do is 1 of 2 things. Either just go out and buy $8000 Glock 17s or 19s, or buy a few copies of several pistols and a metric crap ton of ammo and have a good weekend shooting them. Find out which one works best of the ones you chose then buy 8000 of them.

Problem solved.

but when you do it this way unelected bureaucrats don't get to justify their pensions and lobbyists don't get to have their sex and coke parties with underage kids

 

[Golddiggie]

Considering how they screwed up BACON, what did you expect??

 

[Picton]

"Other ranks" don't get sidearms?

I doubt the Canadians are that much different from the Americans, who issue pistols to a TINY fraction of the army. The vast majority of people in the army won't ever touch a pistol, and there's almost no doctrine that supports their training and use in anything other than an emergency capacity. I'd imagine it's even more deemphasized in the Navy or the Air Force, though I don't really know.

As I've posted here before: among soldiers, pistols are an afterthought. Most civilian gun owners know (and care) a WHOLE lot more about pistols than almost anyone in the service.

WWII vintage Brownings are worth….?

Many, if not most of them are probably Inglis, which are worth even more than Brownings.

 

[Dench]

Why not just buy the new FN highpowers? Would be minimal retraining, etc.