MisterHappy
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OP - By "antique" do you mean an old-timey unit that uses fixed cartridges, or black powder muzzle-loader?
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IMHO and IANAL you’re asking for future life long following problems but you do you.No, I am under 21.
does that mean "carry", as in tote around from point a to point b unloaded or "carry" fully loaded on ones person concealed? "carry" can be defined with a broad brush, no?the Supreme Judicial Court declared that "A person does not need a license to carry a firearm made before 1900".
The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:
(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
(16)The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B)any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
If we're just doing the thought exercise, there's an important bit many are missing. (Bolding mine)
General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 121
malegislature.gov
18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions
www.law.cornell.edu
So it's not enough to find a (repro) firearm chambered in e.g. 45LC; it has to have been manufactured in or before 1899. (1898, if one's being mindful of the feds.) Someone who can afford to purchase (and carry) an historic artifact, might be positioned to afford to move out of MA or to sue for an unrestricted license.
Of course, now I've been nerd-sniped. So I took a look at a couple recently closed auctions at Rock Island. February 18 seems to have had a pretty good selection of antique revolvers. For a little north of $2K (plus fees, etc) one could have bought one of three pairs of Colt Double Action revolver: one in 45LC and match in 41 Colt. Of those, two of the three in 45LC are sufficiently old. They rate as Good or Fair condition due to wear, age, parts replacement, rebluing, etc.
Unless the buyer is a gunsmith, they'll want to find one who specializes in antiques to make sure everything is of the level of mechanical health appropriate for a firearm they intend to train with and carry. Then they're going to want to start reloading (or only ever buy powderpuff cowboy loads) to ensure they never blow it up in their hands. And they'll want to think about the whole carry on an empty cylinder thing.
So not impossible to find oneself in legal possession of a firearm-adjacent device in case they needed it; they would only have to prepare for the legal fallout if it ever came to that. Worth it? I think that's better left to the reader...
Even JMB's own 1911 prototype isn't old enough to apply. Whether an antique is legally a firearm doesn't change that it's a weapon. Holding up a liquor store is definitionally illegal.So...if you hold up a liquor store with one, will the charges not include a weapon enhancement? Will the court see it as a less deadly item because of the age? The fact that many of these firearms have modern day replicas making it somewhat a moot point. Carry a classic 1911 in that manner and expect not to have major problems?
Depends how much you have set aside for the legal issues if it turns to crap.
Thinking on this more - and I'd expect a lawyer or FFL to have more reliable thoughts on this - the buyer really has to be following the 1898 date.it has to have been manufactured in or before 1899. (1898, if one's being mindful of the feds.)
Even JMB's own 1911 prototype isn't old enough to apply. Whether an antique is legally a firearm doesn't change that it's a weapon. Holding up a liquor store is definitionally illegal.
This comment adds nothing to the conversation, which is (at this point) a brain tickler about the intersection of arcane legal definitions and real life practice.
Thinking on this more - and I'd expect a lawyer or FFL to have more reliable thoughts on this - the buyer really has to be following the 1898 date.
Federally, it appears that an 1899-manuf. item must be transferred as a firearm; for a revolver, this means by an FFL in their state of residence. Since one must be 21 to get their C&R (and is subject to ATF BG check) our theoretical buyer can't use that wallhack.
Unless they get really lucky, and stumble on a pre-1899 in some estate sale in MA, it seems like they're limited to the federal definition.
Sounds good in theory, but...Your FID Card can now be revoked at the issuing CLEO’s discretion. If that happens, it’s pretty much a slam dunk denial when you apply for an LTC
I don't know if my FID could be simply revoked for committing no crimes. Unlike an LTC, I believe FID is shall-issue, so they would need to find some legitimate legal reason unless they want to get sued.In my case, I would likely attempt to get an unrestricted LTC before I would carry an antique weapon. I would only consider carrying an antique if I was unable to get an unrestricted license.
No, I don't think muzzle loaded firearms are practical in the modern age. I am talking about double action revolvers or potentially the early semi-automatic pistols that came out in the 1890s (i.e C96).OP - By "antique" do you mean an old-timey unit that uses fixed cartridges, or black powder muzzle-loader?
Fair points around the legal issues, but I feel like a lot of your practical issues aren't as problematic as they may seem:"STAND AND DELIVER!"
View attachment 593077
There's quite a lot of both legal and practical issues with carrying an antique handgun. Especially for someone on a presumably tight budget at a young age.
First, if you're interacting with the constabulary (hey, let's stick with a theme here), you've done something that's legally problematic regardless of whether you're carrying a flintlock or a Glock.
Second, you're making quite a lot of assumptions based around any charges brought being "dropped." What if there's more charges than just unlicensed carrying? Those aren't going away simply because you carried an antique. Also, a lot of prosecutors or defense attorneys simply don't know the law surrounding antique guns, so definitely don't assume the charges will magically disappear on demand. Further, I highly doubt the cops will simply not arrest you again if there's a repeat issue - see point the first, why are you interacting with them? I would never make any assumptions about the legal system - your case might die at arraignment, or it might go all the way to the SJC or beyond. Are you up for that? Are you hiring your own counsel or going with CPCS?
Third, as others have mentioned, there's the suitability issue. If you've done something to get yourself criminally charged, especially in relation to anything with guns, the police may deny your LTC application based on suitability, and the case law strongly favors police discretion here. Further, if you move to another state and apply for a carry permit there, you might have to explain all this, and that might not be an easy conversation.
Those are some of the legal issues. Never make assumptions about the legal system. If you do make any assumptions, assume it'll be an expensive, time-consuming, dehumanizing process.
Let's turn to the practical problems.
Holsters. Most antique handguns are black powder and big. They were not designed for concealed carry. Meaning holster choices are big, bulky, impractical for concealment, and more oriented towards reenactors, hobbyists, and people wanting to cosplay as a cowboy (or some other 19th Century character) on weekends. This leads back to legal issue one, that is, why are you involved with the police - if we imagine the typical "man with a gun!" phone call, old timey holsters aren't helping in that situation.
That being said, however, there were concealeable handguns developed during the 19th Century, such as the British Bulldog revolvers, derringers, smaller pepperboxes, and very, very early production FN 1899 semi-autos. Again, though, holster options are going to be limited and not ideal.
Ammo. Black powder is a totally different world than the very convenient convenience of the self-contained smokeless powder cartridge. You're making your own ammo every time, especially if you're looking at pre-cartridge guns like flintlock or percussion single shot pistols. I'm going to be blunt here - I think that if you had any exposure to the ins and outs of black powder guns, you wouldn't be considering this idea, also because of...
The question of actually defending yourself with a black powder handgun. Ignoring early smokeless semi-autos for the moment, because I doubt an under-21 year old has the cash to buy an antique C96 or FN 1899 or Borchardt or Luger, plus holster, and then actually train with it, let's assume you're carrying either (a) a black powder flintlock or percussion single or double shot pistol; or (b) a black powder revolver.
You're probably totally screwed up against anyone else with any other type of gun, except for maybe a .22 pocket pistol like a Jennings. In a you versus melee or unarmed opponent, you might actually get a shot off, but these guns are extremely slow to get into action (compare a Glock to a percussion pistol, one involves no extra movement, the other involves pulling back the hammer and putting a cap on the nipple), moisture sensitive (unless you're carrying a centerfire cartridge revolver), and extremely slow to reload ("excuse me Mr. Knife-wielding criminal, please wait as I load another round/reload my cylinder, this'll take approximately thirty to sixty seconds.") Seriously, watch some videos about how slowwwwwwww these guns are to reload.
But ah! "I only need one shot!" you say, or "six for sure!" Guess what. Find me an instructor who teaches "Defensive Black Powder Handgun 101" classes. I want to see those split times with a Colt SAA or a US M1842 percussion pistol. Simply put, these aren't practical defensive tools in the 21st Century, or for most of the 20th Century, either.
Go out and buy a traditional flintlock or percussion muzzloading rifle and learn how complicated these guns are to use. The most typical black powder user out there today - the deer or bear muzzleloader hunter - uses a gun that's so far removed from the 19th Century that it isn't funny. Most use black powder substitutes, optics, and inline firing mechanisms, because of how outdated flintlock and percussion guns are.
These kinds of discussions come up here and there in two contexts: people under 21 trying to carry in Mass, and Polish (in Poland, to be clear) people trying to carry any sort of handgun. The reason for that is quirks in the gun laws. These aren't practical solutions to self-defense.
There's my two cents at 4am. If you're legitimately concerned about your safety, buy a folding knife or multitool with a knife, and take a class in how to use a knife defensively.
I admire your optimism.The theory was that if it is legal without much grey area (especially given that MA's own courts have ruled on this specific thing), the first encounter with my town's police might be problematic, but if I can get the charges dropped once I likely won't have similar issues with my town again. Sure maybe every now and then there could be a small headache for a bit, but once I succeed for the first time, that precedence ideally will make those experiences not as bad.
Fair points around the legal issues, but I feel like a lot of your practical issues aren't as problematic as they may seem:
1. If I'm on a budget, there are a lot of double-action revolvers that are still relatively small I have found being sold. If I'm not on a budget, there are occasionally semi-auto pistols like a C96 that are available for 5k-10k and from the videos I've seen, using a stripper clip with the Mauser seems relatively easy?
2. Regarding ammunition, I disagree that I would need to make my own. There are still sellers that make blackpowder cartridges I have found on Google.
3. "compare a Glock to a percussion pistol, one involves no extra movement, the other involves pulling back the hammer and putting a cap on the nipple" - I would not be using a percussion revolver, I agree that would be dumb. Pre-1899 double action revolvers wouldn't have this problem.
4. "Seriously, watch some videos about how slowwwwwwww these guns are to reload." - You are correct that some of these revolvers are painfully slow to reload, but not all of them. An example includes break-open revolvers which you can still reload in a pretty fast manner. I believe there might be some speedloader options as well if I want to be even faster.
5. "Go out and buy a traditional flintlock or percussion muzzloading rifle and learn how complicated these guns are to use." - Again I completely agree these would not be practical in modern day use. I would not buy a muzzle loaded or flintlock anything.
Thanks for the detailed notes though.
Right, for all this to actually be doable, it can't be a repro, like say an Italian or Brazilian cowboy gun clone. And if we stick with Colt, Colt didn't begin testing the Double Action Army for smokeless until 1905.
We're talking about literal antiques here - how many informed and knowledgeable gun guys are going to shoot smokeless through a black powder designed revolver? Doesn't look like many on the Colt forum:
Shooting modern ammo in first generation SAA
Again, I've conceal-carried my Webley MkI loaded up with Trail Boss. Mostly for kicks and grins, but I did it. It would have done just fine if I'd needed it, I suppose.
That's the kind of thing that, IF the OP is correct (that's a big "if"), would be totally kosher. I still don't think it's a wise idea for a fellow with a FID.
Hay guyz...I would never make any assumptions about the legal system - your case might die at arraignment, or it might go all the way to the SJC or beyond. Are you up for that? Are you hiring your own counsel or going with CPCS?
Puh-leeze.MA law is s silly. I can strap on a 4 foot katana and be legal, but a three inch knife with a double edge is illegal.
I just flashed on the Bull Run's Nine-Step Program.I’ll take my Colt 1860 Army for a night out in the local tavern.
On 8-Feb'18, a Mass. appeals court issued a "persuasive but non-binding" decisionSo...if you hold up a liquor store with one, will the charges not include a weapon enhancement? Will the court see it as a less deadly item because of the age? ...
Those are rookie opinions.Under 21s are crippled WRT handguns. ... The sooner people accept the above vs engaging in furious sabre dance level mental masturbation exercises, the easier things get. Trying to wallhack the system at this level is admirable but ultimately futile
Was it a pre-1898 MkI? I know I'm being pedantic here, but there's a difference between a revolver built in 1895 and one from 1950. And that's before we get into finding anyone that'll sell commercial .455 Webley ammo. (Buffalo Bore has some, but you're not getting it on TSUSA)Again, I've conceal-carried my Webley MkI loaded up with Trail Boss. Mostly for kicks and grins, but I did it. It would have done just fine if I'd needed it, I suppose.
That's the kind of thing that, IF the OP is correct (that's a big "if"), would be totally kosher. I still don't think it's a wise idea for a fellow with a FID.