MisterHappy
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OP - By "antique" do you mean an old-timey unit that uses fixed cartridges, or black powder muzzle-loader?
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Can I concealed carry antique weapons without an LTC (or with a restricted LTC)?
- Thread starter Zinose
- Start date
BTSDOG
NES Member
First things first, go GREEN. Then play around with the young ladies in your agegroup until you hit that magic "21". Get your ltc, dump the girls so you can spend all your dollars on the guns.....![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
D
Deleted member 67409
"STAND AND DELIVER!"
There's quite a lot of both legal and practical issues with carrying an antique handgun. Especially for someone on a presumably tight budget at a young age.
First, if you're interacting with the constabulary (hey, let's stick with a theme here), you've done something that's legally problematic regardless of whether you're carrying a flintlock or a Glock.
Second, you're making quite a lot of assumptions based around any charges brought being "dropped." What if there's more charges than just unlicensed carrying? Those aren't going away simply because you carried an antique. Also, a lot of prosecutors or defense attorneys simply don't know the law surrounding antique guns, so definitely don't assume the charges will magically disappear on demand. Further, I highly doubt the cops will simply not arrest you again if there's a repeat issue - see point the first, why are you interacting with them? I would never make any assumptions about the legal system - your case might die at arraignment, or it might go all the way to the SJC or beyond. Are you up for that? Are you hiring your own counsel or going with CPCS?
Third, as others have mentioned, there's the suitability issue. If you've done something to get yourself criminally charged, especially in relation to anything with guns, the police may deny your LTC application based on suitability, and the case law strongly favors police discretion here. Further, if you move to another state and apply for a carry permit there, you might have to explain all this, and that might not be an easy conversation.
Those are some of the legal issues. Never make assumptions about the legal system. If you do make any assumptions, assume it'll be an expensive, time-consuming, dehumanizing process.
Let's turn to the practical problems.
Holsters. Most antique handguns are black powder and big. They were not designed for concealed carry. Meaning holster choices are big, bulky, impractical for concealment, and more oriented towards reenactors, hobbyists, and people wanting to cosplay as a cowboy (or some other 19th Century character) on weekends. This leads back to legal issue one, that is, why are you involved with the police - if we imagine the typical "man with a gun!" phone call, old timey holsters aren't helping in that situation.
That being said, however, there were concealeable handguns developed during the 19th Century, such as the British Bulldog revolvers, derringers, smaller pepperboxes, and very, very early production FN 1899 semi-autos. Again, though, holster options are going to be limited and not ideal.
Ammo. Black powder is a totally different world than the very convenient convenience of the self-contained smokeless powder cartridge. You're making your own ammo every time, especially if you're looking at pre-cartridge guns like flintlock or percussion single shot pistols. I'm going to be blunt here - I think that if you had any exposure to the ins and outs of black powder guns, you wouldn't be considering this idea, also because of...
The question of actually defending yourself with a black powder handgun. Ignoring early smokeless semi-autos for the moment, because I doubt an under-21 year old has the cash to buy an antique C96 or FN 1899 or Borchardt or Luger, plus holster, and then actually train with it, let's assume you're carrying either (a) a black powder flintlock or percussion single or double shot pistol; or (b) a black powder revolver.
You're probably totally screwed up against anyone else with any other type of gun, except for maybe a .22 pocket pistol like a Jennings. In a you versus melee or unarmed opponent, you might actually get a shot off, but these guns are extremely slow to get into action (compare a Glock to a percussion pistol, one involves no extra movement, the other involves pulling back the hammer and putting a cap on the nipple), moisture sensitive (unless you're carrying a centerfire cartridge revolver), and extremely slow to reload ("excuse me Mr. Knife-wielding criminal, please wait as I load another round/reload my cylinder, this'll take approximately thirty to sixty seconds.") Seriously, watch some videos about how slowwwwwwww these guns are to reload.
But ah! "I only need one shot!" you say, or "six for sure!" Guess what. Find me an instructor who teaches "Defensive Black Powder Handgun 101" classes. I want to see those split times with a Colt SAA or a US M1842 percussion pistol. Simply put, these aren't practical defensive tools in the 21st Century, or for most of the 20th Century, either.
Go out and buy a traditional flintlock or percussion muzzloading rifle and learn how complicated these guns are to use. The most typical black powder user out there today - the deer or bear muzzleloader hunter - uses a gun that's so far removed from the 19th Century that it isn't funny. Most use black powder substitutes, optics, and inline firing mechanisms, because of how outdated flintlock and percussion guns are.
These kinds of discussions come up here and there in two contexts: people under 21 trying to carry in Mass, and Polish (in Poland, to be clear) people trying to carry any sort of handgun. The reason for that is quirks in the gun laws. These aren't practical solutions to self-defense.
There's my two cents at 4am. If you're legitimately concerned about your safety, buy a folding knife or multitool with a knife, and take a class in how to use a knife defensively.
There's quite a lot of both legal and practical issues with carrying an antique handgun. Especially for someone on a presumably tight budget at a young age.
First, if you're interacting with the constabulary (hey, let's stick with a theme here), you've done something that's legally problematic regardless of whether you're carrying a flintlock or a Glock.
Second, you're making quite a lot of assumptions based around any charges brought being "dropped." What if there's more charges than just unlicensed carrying? Those aren't going away simply because you carried an antique. Also, a lot of prosecutors or defense attorneys simply don't know the law surrounding antique guns, so definitely don't assume the charges will magically disappear on demand. Further, I highly doubt the cops will simply not arrest you again if there's a repeat issue - see point the first, why are you interacting with them? I would never make any assumptions about the legal system - your case might die at arraignment, or it might go all the way to the SJC or beyond. Are you up for that? Are you hiring your own counsel or going with CPCS?
Third, as others have mentioned, there's the suitability issue. If you've done something to get yourself criminally charged, especially in relation to anything with guns, the police may deny your LTC application based on suitability, and the case law strongly favors police discretion here. Further, if you move to another state and apply for a carry permit there, you might have to explain all this, and that might not be an easy conversation.
Those are some of the legal issues. Never make assumptions about the legal system. If you do make any assumptions, assume it'll be an expensive, time-consuming, dehumanizing process.
Let's turn to the practical problems.
Holsters. Most antique handguns are black powder and big. They were not designed for concealed carry. Meaning holster choices are big, bulky, impractical for concealment, and more oriented towards reenactors, hobbyists, and people wanting to cosplay as a cowboy (or some other 19th Century character) on weekends. This leads back to legal issue one, that is, why are you involved with the police - if we imagine the typical "man with a gun!" phone call, old timey holsters aren't helping in that situation.
That being said, however, there were concealeable handguns developed during the 19th Century, such as the British Bulldog revolvers, derringers, smaller pepperboxes, and very, very early production FN 1899 semi-autos. Again, though, holster options are going to be limited and not ideal.
Ammo. Black powder is a totally different world than the very convenient convenience of the self-contained smokeless powder cartridge. You're making your own ammo every time, especially if you're looking at pre-cartridge guns like flintlock or percussion single shot pistols. I'm going to be blunt here - I think that if you had any exposure to the ins and outs of black powder guns, you wouldn't be considering this idea, also because of...
The question of actually defending yourself with a black powder handgun. Ignoring early smokeless semi-autos for the moment, because I doubt an under-21 year old has the cash to buy an antique C96 or FN 1899 or Borchardt or Luger, plus holster, and then actually train with it, let's assume you're carrying either (a) a black powder flintlock or percussion single or double shot pistol; or (b) a black powder revolver.
You're probably totally screwed up against anyone else with any other type of gun, except for maybe a .22 pocket pistol like a Jennings. In a you versus melee or unarmed opponent, you might actually get a shot off, but these guns are extremely slow to get into action (compare a Glock to a percussion pistol, one involves no extra movement, the other involves pulling back the hammer and putting a cap on the nipple), moisture sensitive (unless you're carrying a centerfire cartridge revolver), and extremely slow to reload ("excuse me Mr. Knife-wielding criminal, please wait as I load another round/reload my cylinder, this'll take approximately thirty to sixty seconds.") Seriously, watch some videos about how slowwwwwwww these guns are to reload.
But ah! "I only need one shot!" you say, or "six for sure!" Guess what. Find me an instructor who teaches "Defensive Black Powder Handgun 101" classes. I want to see those split times with a Colt SAA or a US M1842 percussion pistol. Simply put, these aren't practical defensive tools in the 21st Century, or for most of the 20th Century, either.
Go out and buy a traditional flintlock or percussion muzzloading rifle and learn how complicated these guns are to use. The most typical black powder user out there today - the deer or bear muzzleloader hunter - uses a gun that's so far removed from the 19th Century that it isn't funny. Most use black powder substitutes, optics, and inline firing mechanisms, because of how outdated flintlock and percussion guns are.
These kinds of discussions come up here and there in two contexts: people under 21 trying to carry in Mass, and Polish (in Poland, to be clear) people trying to carry any sort of handgun. The reason for that is quirks in the gun laws. These aren't practical solutions to self-defense.
There's my two cents at 4am. If you're legitimately concerned about your safety, buy a folding knife or multitool with a knife, and take a class in how to use a knife defensively.
In God We Trust
NES Member
MA law is s silly. I can strap on a 4 foot katana and be legal, but a three inch knife with a double edge is illegal.
Cops also enjoy jamming up teenagers for some reason. I wouldn’t do it
Cops also enjoy jamming up teenagers for some reason. I wouldn’t do it
allen-1
NES Member
Asaltweapon
NES Member
IMHO and IANAL you’re asking for future life long following problems but you do you.
I'd stick to mace and a knife if I. We're concerned for my safety rather than risking an arrest.
Never know what life may throw you down the line from a job requiring a security clearance to applying for an LTC. I wouldn't have wanted to discuss a firearms charge in an interview for a clearance.
Never know what life may throw you down the line from a job requiring a security clearance to applying for an LTC. I wouldn't have wanted to discuss a firearms charge in an interview for a clearance.
mousegunguy
NES Member
Not that I’m sayin do it but..
I do not feel the least bit under armed when I carry my 58 NMA or ROA percussion revolvers. .44 round ball has plenty of thump.
It’s easy (6-7 seconds) to change out an old cylinder and pop in a new fully loaded cylinder.
If you miss what you shootin at you still may catch it on fire and if that fails you’ve still got a great club.
There are smaller options like the 62 police or the pocket guns. Also naa make the companion line of percussion revolvers.
The biggest issues for me is transportation. They need to be unloaded. That means no cap which seals the cone and keeps your powder dry. Plus it’s fiddly to keep taken the caps off and putting back on.
So when I do carry them it’s usually when I’m out in my woods.
They can also be somewhat moisture sensitive if not sealed correctly and Fiddlin with the caps to transport doesn’t help.
But still don’t do it !
I do not feel the least bit under armed when I carry my 58 NMA or ROA percussion revolvers. .44 round ball has plenty of thump.
It’s easy (6-7 seconds) to change out an old cylinder and pop in a new fully loaded cylinder.
If you miss what you shootin at you still may catch it on fire and if that fails you’ve still got a great club.
There are smaller options like the 62 police or the pocket guns. Also naa make the companion line of percussion revolvers.
The biggest issues for me is transportation. They need to be unloaded. That means no cap which seals the cone and keeps your powder dry. Plus it’s fiddly to keep taken the caps off and putting back on.
So when I do carry them it’s usually when I’m out in my woods.
They can also be somewhat moisture sensitive if not sealed correctly and Fiddlin with the caps to transport doesn’t help.
But still don’t do it !
greencobra
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does that mean "carry", as in tote around from point a to point b unloaded or "carry" fully loaded on ones person concealed? "carry" can be defined with a broad brush, no?
Mesatchornug
NES Member
If we're just doing the thought exercise, there's an important bit many are missing. (Bolding mine)
malegislature.gov
www.law.cornell.edu
So it's not enough to find a (repro) firearm chambered in e.g. 45LC; it has to have been manufactured in or before 1899. (1898, if one's being mindful of the feds.) Someone who can afford to purchase (and carry) an historic artifact, might be positioned to afford to move out of MA or to sue for an unrestricted license.
Of course, now I've been nerd-sniped. So I took a look at a couple recently closed auctions at Rock Island. February 18 seems to have had a pretty good selection of antique revolvers. For a little north of $2K (plus fees, etc) one could have bought one of three pairs of Colt Double Action revolver: one in 45LC and match in 41 Colt. Of those, two of the three in 45LC are sufficiently old. They rate as Good or Fair condition due to wear, age, parts replacement, rebluing, etc.
Unless the buyer is a gunsmith, they'll want to find one who specializes in antiques to make sure everything is of the level of mechanical health appropriate for a firearm they intend to train with and carry. Then they're going to want to start reloading (or only ever buy powderpuff cowboy loads) to ensure they never blow it up in their hands. And they'll want to think about the whole carry on an empty cylinder thing.
So not impossible to find oneself in legal possession of a firearm-adjacent device in case they needed it; they would only have to prepare for the legal fallout if it ever came to that. Worth it? I think that's better left to the reader...
General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 121
malegislature.gov
18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions
So it's not enough to find a (repro) firearm chambered in e.g. 45LC; it has to have been manufactured in or before 1899. (1898, if one's being mindful of the feds.) Someone who can afford to purchase (and carry) an historic artifact, might be positioned to afford to move out of MA or to sue for an unrestricted license.
Of course, now I've been nerd-sniped. So I took a look at a couple recently closed auctions at Rock Island. February 18 seems to have had a pretty good selection of antique revolvers. For a little north of $2K (plus fees, etc) one could have bought one of three pairs of Colt Double Action revolver: one in 45LC and match in 41 Colt. Of those, two of the three in 45LC are sufficiently old. They rate as Good or Fair condition due to wear, age, parts replacement, rebluing, etc.
Unless the buyer is a gunsmith, they'll want to find one who specializes in antiques to make sure everything is of the level of mechanical health appropriate for a firearm they intend to train with and carry. Then they're going to want to start reloading (or only ever buy powderpuff cowboy loads) to ensure they never blow it up in their hands. And they'll want to think about the whole carry on an empty cylinder thing.
So not impossible to find oneself in legal possession of a firearm-adjacent device in case they needed it; they would only have to prepare for the legal fallout if it ever came to that. Worth it? I think that's better left to the reader...
So...if you hold up a liquor store with one, will the charges not include a weapon enhancement? Will the court see it as a less deadly item because of the age? The fact that many of these firearms have modern day replicas making it somewhat a moot point. Carry a classic 1911 in that manner and expect not to have major problems?
Depends how much you have set aside for the legal issues if it turns to crap.
Depends how much you have set aside for the legal issues if it turns to crap.
D
Deleted member 67409
If we're just doing the thought exercise, there's an important bit many are missing. (Bolding mine)
General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 121
18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions
So it's not enough to find a (repro) firearm chambered in e.g. 45LC; it has to have been manufactured in or before 1899. (1898, if one's being mindful of the feds.) Someone who can afford to purchase (and carry) an historic artifact, might be positioned to afford to move out of MA or to sue for an unrestricted license.
Of course, now I've been nerd-sniped. So I took a look at a couple recently closed auctions at Rock Island. February 18 seems to have had a pretty good selection of antique revolvers. For a little north of $2K (plus fees, etc) one could have bought one of three pairs of Colt Double Action revolver: one in 45LC and match in 41 Colt. Of those, two of the three in 45LC are sufficiently old. They rate as Good or Fair condition due to wear, age, parts replacement, rebluing, etc.
Unless the buyer is a gunsmith, they'll want to find one who specializes in antiques to make sure everything is of the level of mechanical health appropriate for a firearm they intend to train with and carry. Then they're going to want to start reloading (or only ever buy powderpuff cowboy loads) to ensure they never blow it up in their hands. And they'll want to think about the whole carry on an empty cylinder thing.
So not impossible to find oneself in legal possession of a firearm-adjacent device in case they needed it; they would only have to prepare for the legal fallout if it ever came to that. Worth it? I think that's better left to the reader...
Right, for all this to actually be doable, it can't be a repro, like say an Italian or Brazilian cowboy gun clone. And if we stick with Colt, Colt didn't begin testing the Double Action Army for smokeless until 1905.
We're talking about literal antiques here - how many informed and knowledgeable gun guys are going to shoot smokeless through a black powder designed revolver? Doesn't look like many on the Colt forum:
Shooting modern ammo in first generation SAA
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Even JMB's own 1911 prototype isn't old enough to apply. Whether an antique is legally a firearm doesn't change that it's a weapon. Holding up a liquor store is definitionally illegal.
This comment adds nothing to the conversation, which is (at this point) a brain tickler about the intersection of arcane legal definitions and real life practice.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Thinking on this more - and I'd expect a lawyer or FFL to have more reliable thoughts on this - the buyer really has to be following the 1898 date.
Federally, it appears that an 1899-manuf. item must be transferred as a firearm; for a revolver, this means by an FFL in their state of residence. Since one must be 21 to get their C&R (and is subject to ATF BG check) our theoretical buyer can't use that wallhack.
Unless they get really lucky, and stumble on a pre-1899 in some estate sale in MA, it seems like they're limited to the federal definition.
D
Deleted member 67409
That's the thing, though, there is no intersection between the legal issue and the practicality.
The only guns that are remotely practical for the purpose of "EDC carry with an antique" are C96s and two categories of revolvers: 7.5mm and 8mm early smokeless revolvers from places like Switzerland, France, Japan, Sweden, Norway, and Russia.
Let's just remove the Nagants (Russia, Norway, and Sweden) from consideration because of how stupidly slow they are to reload.
About fifty seconds lol
I don't know how much faster a M1892 Lebel or M1882 Swiss Ordnance is to reload than a Nagant, but let's say those are faster and less likely to get OP killed in the streets.
The options I can think of that are safe to use with smokeless and not useless are the C96, Type 26, M1892 Lebel, and M1882 Swiss Ordnance lol, and none of those are actually easy to *use*
The thing about the 1899 versus 1898 date is that it practically doesn't matter in terms of being able to buy a gun. For instance, I looked up when Lugers and Webley MkIVs came out - 1899 - but the only examples from 1899 were trials guns. Like say a $57,500 Swiss/British trials Luger.
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I don't know if my FID could be simply revoked for committing no crimes. Unlike an LTC, I believe FID is shall-issue, so they would need to find some legitimate legal reason unless they want to get sued.
No, I don't think muzzle loaded firearms are practical in the modern age. I am talking about double action revolvers or potentially the early semi-automatic pistols that came out in the 1890s (i.e C96).
Fair points around the legal issues, but I feel like a lot of your practical issues aren't as problematic as they may seem:
1. If I'm on a budget, there are a lot of double-action revolvers that are still relatively small I have found being sold. If I'm not on a budget, there are occasionally semi-auto pistols like a C96 that are available for 5k-10k and from the videos I've seen, using a stripper clip with the Mauser seems relatively easy?
2. Regarding ammunition, I disagree that I would need to make my own. There are still sellers that make blackpowder cartridges I have found on Google.
3. "compare a Glock to a percussion pistol, one involves no extra movement, the other involves pulling back the hammer and putting a cap on the nipple" - I would not be using a percussion revolver, I agree that would be dumb. Pre-1899 double action revolvers wouldn't have this problem.
4. "Seriously, watch some videos about how slowwwwwwww these guns are to reload." - You are correct that some of these revolvers are painfully slow to reload, but not all of them. An example includes break-open revolvers which you can still reload in a pretty fast manner. I believe there might be some speedloader options as well if I want to be even faster.
5. "Go out and buy a traditional flintlock or percussion muzzloading rifle and learn how complicated these guns are to use." - Again I completely agree these would not be practical in modern day use. I would not buy a muzzle loaded or flintlock anything.
Thanks for the detailed notes though.
There is case law somewhere where a PP dude got shafted carrying an antique pistol, judge basically said "you still need an LTC to carry even BP pistol"
I wouldn't risk it to carry some shitpistol. Especially if this is just an age thing.
I wouldn't risk it to carry some shitpistol. Especially if this is just an age thing.
namedpipes
NES Member
D
Deleted member 67409
First, stripper clips are the worst way to reload a modern gun. Especially on a C96 because the clip holds the bolt back from slamming into your thumb. Watch these videos I link to below. Also, spending $5,000 to $10,000 is absolutely insane on an EDC carry gun. The typical carry gun is more like $350 to $1,000. Remember, if you get charged, the gun is going into an evidence locker where it won't be maintained, will probably be let to rust, and might even be stolen. A lot of the time, when a gun gets taken as evidence, the owner doesn't get it back ever.
Second, most ammo sellers from outside Mass aren't going to sell you ammo. Read the shipping details and terms and conditions before making any plans.
Third, fourth, and fifth, see post no. 48 where I mention specifically which revolvers would be (a) safe to use with smokeless powder; and (b) were historically viable as defensive weapons based on their military provenance. And all of the ones I mentioned were replaced as main military service handguns by WW1. The Type 26 stuck around for longer because it was a second-standard handgun and the Japanese military required officers to purchase their own guns. Edit 1: the M1892 Lebel remained the French official handgun after WW1 but was de facto replaced by the Ruby and a litany of other semi-auto pistols during the war; France would move towards semi-autos by 1939, 1940.
Using one of these guns for EDC in 2022 is quite frankly nonsensical. None of them have practical holster options that allow good concealment. All of them shoot very hard to find and expensive ammo. These types of guns are for collectors to shoot occasionally at a range, not to actually use for self-defense. Don't believe me? Take a Type 26 to the SIG Academy and see how well you do.
I wouldn't seriously consider anything black powder because of how corrosive it is and hard to find real black powder ammo is in Mass. It simply doesn't make sense from a monetary or self-defense point of view to buy say an antique SAA, then get a handloading press to make black powder .45 Colt, and then carry the thing in 2022.
Edit 2: let's talk about the SAA specifically for a second. Jeff Cooper of 1911 fame was a gun guy when he was younger and he asked famous handgunners at the time what he should carry as his personal handgun going into the Pacific as a young Marines officer. The answer he got from the crusty old guys of the time was the Colt SAA. He bought one, carried it for about a minute in combat, and then dumped it ASAP in exchange for a 1911. He discussed this in his "Commentaries." I realize you don't have lawful access to a more modern gun, but you need to understand how dated these old black powder guns are. That's why I suggested buying a muzzleloader: to understand the kinks of shooting a black powder gun.
Last edited by a moderator:
Again, I've conceal-carried my Webley MkI loaded up with Trail Boss. Mostly for kicks and grins, but I did it. It would have done just fine if I'd needed it, I suppose.
That's the kind of thing that, IF the OP is correct (that's a big "if"), would be totally kosher. I still don't think it's a wise idea for a fellow with a FID.
D
Deleted member 67409
You and I both know its possible to carry old black powder revolvers. But it takes so much additional leg work to do that it simply isn't a logical choice for the vast majority of people. Milsurp collectors like us do it for fun and its because its what we know and have. But we know its not something that can withstand rational thinking.
AHM
NES Member
Hay guyz...
...for someone between ages 18 and 21,
which is more expensive?
- Hiring a full-time bodyguard with a legal gun,
- -or-
- The legal bill for appealing a criminal conviction to the SJC?
Puh-leeze.
I just flashed on the Bull Run's Nine-Step Program.
![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
On 8-Feb'18, a Mass. appeals court issued a "persuasive but non-binding" decision
that pepper spray is a "dangerous weapon".
What do you think they will say about an antique firearm?
Under 21s are crippled WRT handguns.
The only way an under 21 is going to legally carry is if they live in a free state and they get gifted stuff or they're buying private sale. And in some free states even that may still be perilous.
The sooner people accept the above vs engaging in furious sabre dance level
View: https://youtu.be/gqg3l3r_DRI
mental masturbation exercises, the easier things get. Trying to wallhack the system at this level is admirable but ultimately futile
The only way an under 21 is going to legally carry is if they live in a free state and they get gifted stuff or they're buying private sale. And in some free states even that may still be perilous.
The sooner people accept the above vs engaging in furious sabre dance level
View: https://youtu.be/gqg3l3r_DRI
mental masturbation exercises, the easier things get. Trying to wallhack the system at this level is admirable but ultimately futile
AHM
NES Member
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Was it a pre-1898 MkI? I know I'm being pedantic here, but there's a difference between a revolver built in 1895 and one from 1950. And that's before we get into finding anyone that'll sell commercial .455 Webley ammo. (Buffalo Bore has some, but you're not getting it on TSUSA)
