C&R Purchase from non-LTC holder? (MA)

[browncoat]

Originally Posted by 27 CFR 478.125(g)
...when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time such transfer or disposition is made.

this is exactly my point. 03FFL pertains to acquisition or transfer of a firearm, not possession.

prior to my getting the C&R, i spoke w a firearms attorney about the 03FFL (he is not in MA, but that's irrelevant because again MA does not recognize the 03FFL).

the way he explained to me and from everything I have read, the 03FFL pertains to acquisition or disposition of firearms that meet 1 of the 3 criteria that anybody can look up. it has nothing to do with possession of firearms. there are absolutely no firearms that become lawful to possess just because i have an 03FFL.

by the logic described above (i.e. logging all C&R firearms regardless of method of acquisition), then every time the ATF releases a new "C&R list" then all 03FFLs must go through their firearm inventory and start adding "acquisitions" to their C&R bound book. this makes no sense.

from my discussion w actual legal counsel, the 03FFL applies only if I acquire from or transfer to another 03FFL. if the firearm comes to me via an 01FFL then my silly little 03FFL is irrelevant from both the perspective of legality and documentation.

of course I could be wrong (this has happened before), but the above is how it was explained to me and my best assessment from reading the actual ATF paperwork.

Check out http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.8.1.6&idno=27

Particularly, look at (f). It doesn't matter how the C&R gun is acquired, it must be logged in the bound book.

Also, see this letter from the ATF http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=20879

 

[invaliduser]

Yeah, or they can both drive into a free state and the C&R holder can accept the gun from him there. Then the C&R holder just logs it into his book and FA-10s it when he comes back, done. (this avoids the breaking the MA law trap for the unlicensed seller (because the sale of the firearm didn't occur in MA ) and a C&R is not prohibited from acquiring (C&R qualified) guns under a residency mismatch situation.

-Mike

Don't you still have to list where/who it came from?

 

[Kevlar]

Don't you still have to list where/who it came from?

Federally, yes, all required info must be logged in the bound-book.

On a State level, no. Firearms acquired outside of MA merely require a FA-10 submitted as "Registration" with no source ("Seller") info.

 

[xcom]

.

 

[TheCrowing]

No, firearms acquired outside of MA merely require a FA-10 submitted as "Registration" with no source ("Seller") info.

Hypothetically, what happens if you don't within 7 days? You have to throw them in the ocean?

 

[browncoat]

Hypothetically, what happens if you don't within 7 days? You have to throw them in the ocean?

Hypothetically, I think the statute of limitations is 6 years, and because it isn't registration, there is no penalty for having an unregistered firearm.

 

[drgrant]

Don't you still have to list where/who it came from?

Yes, in your BB entry, but nothing else.

-Mike

 

[invaliduser]

Yep in the bound book was where I meant
So the bound book would reflect that you got it from a MA resident because of their name and address but in reality the deal happened outside of MA

 

[Kevlar]

Yep in the bound book was where I meant

Sorry, I misunderstood your question and clarified my previous post.

So the bound book would reflect that you got it from a MA resident because of their name and address but in reality the deal happened outside of MA

Correct.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The only law that I could see being broken by leaving MA is that the possible seller can't legally leave the state with the pistol, since he can't take the pistol anywhere without an LTC. Otherwise, and maybe LenS could chime in, how could two people in another state possibly violate MA law?

If the seller does NOT have a MA LTC, they would need to travel with the gun AND a person who is licensed . . . this is true no matter where the gun is being transported to.

If the seller took gun to out of state FFL who in tern transferred it to the C and R holder Ma would have no say.... I love that lol

Don't bet that MA won't make noise. Legally they SHOULD have no authority across a border but they do indeed try to reach those nasty tentacles everywhere.

True, but you are ASSUMING both parties to have a C&R, which doesn't appear to be the case in the OP. He clearly stated that the guy doesn't have an LTC, so why would you think he'd happen to a have a C&R?

WRONG! A C&R FFL federally allows you to buy any C&R gun from ANYONE, licensed or not (by the state or the feds), anywhere in the USA.

as i understand only C&R-acquired need to be logged.
in other words, if i acquire a mosin 91/30 from an 01FFL, i do not consider that a C&R 03FFL acquisition.
if i purchase/acquire from someone who is an 03FFL, then i consider it a C&R and log it accordingly.

BATFE would DISAGREE with you rather vehemently. Read the conditions of holding a C&R FFL. It is the gun that demands what you must do or not, NOT how or where you obtained it.

If obtained PRIOR to being licensed, you do not enter it in the BB until you go to sell it, again regardless of who or where you sell it to.

Generally, it is unlawful to transport into one's State of residence a firearm obtained outside one's State of residence.

Citation please! I am NOT aware of any law against "transport" of any gun (other than NFA) from one state to another. Loaning a handgun for other than "sporting purposes" is illegal, but that is it.

No, its not one or the other. Once you're a licensed collector of curios and relics (aka 03ffl) you must record ALL acquisitions of C&R firearms in your bound book no matter how you got them. E.g. buy a garand from CMP, buy a mosin from unlicensed (no ffl) individual, buy from another C&R, buy from 01ffl, it goes in the book and required an eFA-10.

You don't need to retroactively enter any C&R guns you got before your license though, at least not till you sell them I believe.

You are correct. This is all federal. State requires FA-10s regardless of where/how you got a gun.

 

[invaliduser]

Wait so what I'm understanding from this is you can purchase it from the unlicensed individual in MA and do the FA-10 yourself and record into your bound book.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Wait so what I'm understanding from this is you can purchase it from the unlicensed individual in MA and do the FA-10 yourself and record into your bound book.

Nope, due to MGL. Feds wouldn't care, as that is how it is done in Free America.

 

[invaliduser]

Goddamnit this stupid place.

 

[Kevlar]

Generally, it is unlawful to transport into one's State of residence a firearm obtained outside one's State of residence.

Citation please! I am NOT aware of any law against "transport" of any gun (other than NFA) from one state to another. Loaning a handgun for other than "sporting purposes" is illegal, but that is it.

.

(a) It shall be unlawful—

<snip>

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State...

 

[Len-2A Training]

.

I think that we are on the same page, but your wording isn't concise enough IMNSHO.

18 USC 922 (a)(3) basically means that you can't have a gun shipped to him/buy from out of state without involving an FFL (any state for long guns, home state only for handguns).

Using the term "transport" leads to a misunderstanding of what you were trying to say.

 

[Ezra]

Back to the original OP. Since they can't do a FTF transaction with FA10, one option is to use an MA dealer. One of the exemptions that allow FFL's to sell off-list guns is if they were owned prior to 1998 (example: pre-ban glocks). Does the firearms need to be legally owned the entire time prior to 1998(or after)? Maybe the owner of this handgun legally owned this back in the 50's/60's with whatever license they had at the time, and he didn't renew.

If you can't find an MA dealer to do the transfer, I would think you can both travel up to NH together (or seller/gun with another LTC-A holder of his choice), and do the transfer there. Seller sells gun to dealer. Buyer purchases from dealer using C&R because its out of state.

 

[The5thDentist]

1. drive to NH
2. do transfer
3. stock up on cheap cigs and alcohol
4. winning

 

[mojo3691]

A licensed FFL holder can aquire a firearm from any lawful source. As a C&R FFL holder (type 03 FFL) you can take possession of this firearm and enter it into you aquisition and disposition record book with the name, address and identifying information of the seller along with the model, type, caliber and serial number of the firearm. There is no FA-10 because it is on your license, not to you as an individual. If there is some state ordinance that affects your FFL (like New York or California) than go to a type 01 FFL with him and the gun, The other FFL takes possession of the gun and then transfers it to you.

 

[jpm]

A licensed FFL holder can aquire a firearm from any lawful source. As a C&R FFL holder (type 03 FFL) you can take possession of this firearm and enter it into you aquisition and disposition record book with the name, address and identifying information of the seller along with the model, type, caliber and serial number of the firearm. There is no FA-10 because it is on your license, not to you as an individual[/QUOTE]

No, you have to do an FA-10 on it when you acquire it (within 7 days) if you're a MA resident.

 

[shotgunwilly870]

Could it hurt just to enter any C&R you have? If you put down ones that you acquired from a dealer they would probably not give you as hard a time if you didn't list something at all

 

[Len-2A Training]

A licensed FFL holder can aquire a firearm from any lawful source. As a C&R FFL holder (type 03 FFL) you can take possession of this firearm and enter it into you aquisition and disposition record book with the name, address and identifying information of the seller along with the model, type, caliber and serial number of the firearm. There is no FA-10 because it is on your license, not to you as an individual. If there is some state ordinance that affects your FFL (like New York or California) than go to a type 01 FFL with him and the gun, The other FFL takes possession of the gun and then transfers it to you.

What you are recommending violates a number of MA laws.

What you state is true ONLY as far as the Feds are concerned . . . but one must obey both Federal and State laws or be willing to suffer the consequences.

 

[Terminator03]

Wow, as informative as this thread is, it makes my head hurt and realize yet again why I need to get out of this damned state! Ugh!

 

[pavlin]

my brain just exploded