C&R Purchase from non-LTC holder? (MA)

[willbdavis]

So I have a question for the more knowledgeable here at NES.

I have been approached by someone who is in possession of a handgun in Massachusetts. I am located in Massachusetts. The current owner does not have an LTC. The firearm came down to him from his father who brought it back as a war trophy from WWII. Based on the serial number it looks like it was manufactured in 1935. I have seen the Army paperwork and have a copy.

As a C&R holder am I able to purchase this firearm directly from the seller? Typically MA law requires person-to-person sales to be between LTC/FID holders. Does it make a difference that this is a C&R eligible handgun?

If I am able to purchase this directly from the seller, how do I record it with the Commonwealth?

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Your C+R is basically not recognized whatsoever for any sales or purchases. In MA, the other person needs to have an LTC to sell you his pistol privately, or you take him to an FFL to perform the transfer if he does not have an LTC

 

[mclina]

MA does not recognize C&R licenses. You'll have to do a transfer at a dealer.

 

[92G]

I do not know the correct legal answer but i am interested to hear what the expert folks say.

if i recall there is some cutoff date before which firearms arent required to have LTC? Something like around year 1900? I dont know for sure so will wait again for later post here.

if this were my acquisitiom, personally i would not purchase any gun or serialiazed part from a non-LTC holder. Just my gut instinct given the atmosphere of this lovely nanny state.

 

[MAGG]

def wanna know what the gun is too..so after your legally the owner post it up

 

[Cabinetman]

If I'm not mistaken, ANY firearm built before 1898 is considered and antique and does not need any xfer or ffl interaction or paperwork. Now, whether or not MA recognizes this is up to you MA guys. For all I know a "pike-cannon" from the 1300s would still require an FFL in that state and probably here in CT as well! Good luck finding a serial number on it, however.

Rome

 

[Len-2A Training]

As noted above, MA does not recognize the C&R FFL at all. Thus, all in-state transfers have to be between 2 LTC/FID holders or thru an FFL. Problem with the FFL is proving that a non-EOPS List gun was in MA on/before 10/21/1998 and thus grandfathered. Some refuse, others are reasonable.

In contrast, if you were in ME/NH/etc. and ran into a private citizen (resident of some other state) selling said C&R gun, you could purchase it legally on just your C&R FFL!

 

[browncoat]

This is a rough situation brought about by MAs strange laws. The saddest thing is, if you bought it from him, entered it in your book, and registered it with an FA-10, there would be absolutely no way for MA.gov to know whether you bought it out of state (complying with MA laws) or in state (possibly not?)

 

[jar]

In contrast, if you were in ME/NH/etc. and ran into a private citizen (resident of some other state) selling said C&R gun, you could purchase it legally on just your C&R FFL!

What if he gets the owner to meet him in NH/ME with the gun?

 

[Len-2A Training]

What if he gets the owner to meet him in NH/ME with the gun?

It's an interesting question, to which I don't know the legal answer. Federally it is OK. I'm sure that MA would DIS-approve, but legally??

 

[Terminator03]

Very interesting thread. I have nothing to add, but definitely subbing for more info!

Strictly hypothetical question, but if the op were to exchange cash for said firearm, and put it in his safe, who would know, and when would it EVER become an actual issue unless he ended being raided by the ATF? Even then who could prove that it wasn't already his in the first place? Not proposing anything illegal here, just asking "hypothetically"...

 

[browncoat]

Very interesting thread. I have nothing to add, but definitely subbing for more info!

Strictly hypothetical question, but if the op were to exchange cash for said firearm, and put it in his safe, who would know, and when would it EVER become an actual issue unless he ended being raided by the ATF? Even then who could prove that it wasn't already his in the first place? Not proposing anything illegal here, just asking "hypothetically"...

As a C&R FFL holder, he is obliged to put any C&R firearm in his bound book. He could get in trouble for not putting it in the book, or if he did have it in the book it would show the date he acquired it. A very rare thing for the ATF to visit and check I would think.

 

[92G]

i went through the trouble of acquiring a C&R specifically to do things lawfully.
there's no reason to go through all the paperwork to then just work around it....not to mention as josh points out the C&R means ATF can audit anyone's book.

the interesting question in this thread (at least IMO) is whether 2 MA residents can leave the state of MA to conduct a federally lawful C&R 03FFL exchange. obviously i don't know the answer to this one...and since LenS doesn't know the answer either that kinda brings this C&R-question to the level of "chicken vs. egg".

 

[browncoat]

i went through the trouble of acquiring a C&R specifically to do things lawfully.
there's no reason to go through all the paperwork to then just work around it....not to mention as josh points out the C&R means ATF can audit anyone's book.

the interesting question in this thread (at least IMO) is whether 2 MA residents can leave the state of MA to conduct a federally lawful C&R 03FFL exchange. obviously i don't know the answer to this one...and since LenS doesn't know the answer either that kinda brings this C&R-question to the level of "chicken vs. egg".

The only law that I could see being broken by leaving MA is that the possible seller can't legally leave the state with the pistol, since he can't take the pistol anywhere without an LTC. Otherwise, and maybe LenS could chime in, how could two people in another state possibly violate MA law?

 

[Colt Delta Elite]

It's an interesting question, to which I don't know the legal answer. Federally it is OK. I'm sure that MA would DIS-approve, but legally??

If the seller took gun to out of state FFL who in tern transferred it to the C and R holder Ma would have no say.... I love that lol

 

[92G]

The only law that I could see being broken by leaving MA is that the possible seller can't legally leave the state with the pistol, since he can't take the pistol anywhere without an LTC. Otherwise, and maybe LenS could chime in, how could two people in another state possibly violate MA law?

Ok but leaving the state of MA w a firearm isnt an issue w MA law.
for example, you can bring any firearm to NH or ME assuming its stored lawfully.
the issue at hand is whether the MA statutes would take into account the transaction location.
honestly i doubt anyone would actually be convicted if 2 MA c&R holders did a lawful transaction outside MA. However, as we all know in MA you are guilty until proven otherwise so it just aint worth the trouble IMO (this term massprudence is freaking genius).

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If the seller took gun to out of state FFL who in tern transferred it to the C and R holder Ma would have no say.... I love that lol

The whole point of holding a C&R 03FFL is that you dont need an 01FFL.

so 2 people w C&R going through an 01FFL is like driving your car to the bus-stop

 

[Terminator03]

Ok but leaving the state of MA w a firearm isnt an issue w MA law.
for example, you can bring any firearm to NH or ME assuming its stored lawfully.
the issue at hand is whether the MA statutes would take into account the transaction location.
honestly i doubt anyone would actually be convicted if 2 MA c&R holders did a lawful transaction outside MA. However, as we all know in MA you are guilty until proven otherwise so it just aint worth the trouble IMO (this term massprudence is freaking genius).

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The whole point of holding a C&R 03FFL is that you dont need an 01FFL.

so 2 people w C&R going through an 01FFL is like driving your car to the bus-stop

True, but you are ASSUMING both parties to have a C&R, which doesn't appear to be the case in the OP. He clearly stated that the guy doesn't have an LTC, so why would you think he'd happen to a have a C&R?

 

[Terminator03]

As a C&R FFL holder, he is obliged to put any C&R firearm in his bound book. He could get in trouble for not putting it in the book, or if he did have it in the book it would show the date he acquired it. A very rare thing for the ATF to visit and check I would think.

You actually made me think of a question based on what you say here... Do you need to record C&R eligible firearms even if they were purchased and "registered in MA" PRIOR to acquiring your 03? I was under the impression that only C&R related transactions had to be listed in the book.

 

[92G]

You actually made me think of a question based on what you say here... Do you need to record C&R eligible firearms even if they were purchased and "registered in MA" PRIOR to acquiring your 03? I was under the impression that only C&R related transactions had to be listed in the book.

as i understand only C&R-acquired need to be logged.
in other words, if i acquire a mosin 91/30 from an 01FFL, i do not consider that a C&R 03FFL acquisition.
if i purchase/acquire from someone who is an 03FFL, then i consider it a C&R and log it accordingly.

 

[Terminator03]

as i understand only C&R-acquired need to be logged.
in other words, if i acquire a mosin 91/30 from an 01FFL, i do not consider that a C&R 03FFL acquisition.
if i purchase/acquire from someone who is an 03FFL, then i consider it a C&R and log it accordingly.

Thanks, that is/was my understanding as well, but that post I quoted caused me to rethink that. I am curious about this mainly because I have C&R firearms, but do not yet have my C&R so I was wondering if I automatically have to add them to the book when I get it.

 

[92G]

if someone has any interest in older firearms, it's totally worth getting a C&R even if you don't have immediate need for it.
you never know when some friendly NH/ME C&R will unload a nice M1 garand or enfield for good $$...might as well have the chance to acquire it.

 

[Kevlar]

Your C+R is basically not recognized whatsoever for any sales or purchases. In MA, the other person needs to have an LTC to sell you his pistol privately, or you take him to an FFL to perform the transfer if he does not have an LTC

+1 and done [/thread].

if i recall there is some cutoff date before which firearms arent required to have LTC? Something like around year 1900?

If I'm not mistaken, ANY firearm built before 1898 is considered and antique and does not need any xfer or ffl interaction or paperwork.

Per MA law (MGL 140-121) it's 1899 or prior. Federally (18 USC 921), it's 1898 or prior.

What if he gets the owner to meet him in NH/ME with the gun?

Generally, it is unlawful to transport into one's State of residence a firearm obtained outside one's State of residence.

However, licensees are exempted (18 USC 922(a)(3)), and as such, your suggestion will work legally if the OP transports the current owner and the firearm to a free state and completes the transfer there.

You actually made me think of a question based on what you say here... Do you need to record C&R eligible firearms even if they were purchased and "registered in MA" PRIOR to acquiring your 03? I was under the impression that only C&R related transactions had to be listed in the book.

No, previously owned C&R firearms do not need to be entered into the bound book unless/until it is dispositioned, at which point it must be logged in as a receipt "from private collection", and then logged out as a disposition.

as i understand only C&R-acquired need to be logged. in other words, if i acquire a mosin 91/30 from an 01FFL, i do not consider that a C&R 03FFL acquisition. if i purchase/acquire from someone who is an 03FFL, then i consider it a C&R and log it accordingly.

This is incorrect.

Licensees are required to record ALL C&R acquisitions and dispositions...

(f)Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics.

 

[92G]

i beg to differ with previous post.

if a 01FFL sells me a firearm (e.g. mosin nagant M91/30), you are stating that because this firearm is also on the C&R "list", it was counts as being sold via 2 paths:
1. 01FFL
2. 03FFL.

it's one or the either. there is no reason why the ATF or anybody else would require someone (C&R or not) to acquire a firearm by two independent federally lawful means.\

hopefully LenS will chime in here and set one of us straight (or perhaps both of us hahaha)

 

[45collector]

Exactly, (referencing Kevlar's post) and even if the gun in question doesn't appear on the C&R list, it may still be C&R eligible. Before my father's health declined, he gifted me (on FA10's) several pistols, one of which was a Colt Official Police .38spl that he carried as a LEO many years ago. Research told me it was made in 1958 so I entered it in my bound book.

 

[45collector]

i beg to differ with previous post.

if a 01FFL sells me a firearm (e.g. mosin nagant M91/30), you are stating that because this firearm is also on the C&R "list", it was counts as being sold via 2 paths:
1. 01FFL
2. 03FFL.

it's one or the either. there is no reason why the ATF or anybody else would require someone (C&R or not) to acquire a firearm by two independent federally lawful means.\

The FFL01 doesn't care if you have a C&R or not in that scenario. I see where you're confused on this but it's not "either one or the other". You are dealing with state law and federal law and they don't just automatically go hand-in-hand.

 

[jpm]

i beg to differ with previous post.

if a 01FFL sells me a firearm (e.g. mosin nagant M91/30), you are stating that because this firearm is also on the C&R "list", it was counts as being sold via 2 paths:
1. 01FFL
2. 03FFL.

it's one or the either. there is no reason why the ATF or anybody else would require someone (C&R or not) to acquire a firearm by two independent federally lawful means.

No, its not one or the other. Once you're a licensed collector of curios and relics (aka 03ffl) you must record ALL acquisitions of C&R firearms in your bound book no matter how you got them. E.g. buy a garand from CMP, buy a mosin from unlicensed (no ffl) individual, buy from another C&R, buy from 01ffl, it goes in the book and required an eFA-10.

You don't need to retroactively enter any C&R guns you got before your license though, at least not till you sell them I believe.

 

[TheCrowing]

as i understand only C&R-acquired need to be logged.
in other words, if i acquire a mosin 91/30 from an 01FFL, i do not consider that a C&R 03FFL acquisition.
if i purchase/acquire from someone who is an 03FFL, then i consider it a C&R and log it accordingly.

AND FA/10 it, correct?

 

[Kevlar]

Thanks, that is/was my understanding as well, but that post I quoted caused me to rethink that. I am curious about this mainly because I have C&R firearms, but do not yet have my C&R so I was wondering if I automatically have to add them to the book when I get it.

No, previously owned C&R firearms do not need to be entered into the bound book unless/until it is dispositioned, at which point it must be logged in as a receipt "from private collection", and then logged out as a disposition.

Sorry, I forgot to include the cite...

...when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time such transfer or disposition is made.

AND FA/10 it, correct?

Always, within seven days of entering MA.

 

[drgrant]

MA does not recognize C&R licenses. You'll have to do a transfer at a dealer.

Yeah, or they can both drive into a free state and the C&R holder can accept the gun from him there. Then the C&R holder just logs it into his book and FA-10s it when he comes back, done. (this avoids the breaking the MA law trap for the unlicensed seller (because the sale of the firearm didn't occur in MA ) and a C&R is not prohibited from acquiring (C&R qualified) guns under a residency mismatch situation.

-Mike

 

[92G]

Originally Posted by 27 CFR 478.125(g)
...when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time such transfer or disposition is made.

this is exactly my point. 03FFL pertains to acquisition or transfer of a firearm, not possession.

prior to my getting the C&R, i spoke w a firearms attorney about the 03FFL (he is not in MA, but that's irrelevant because again MA does not recognize the 03FFL).

the way he explained to me and from everything I have read, the 03FFL pertains to acquisition or disposition of firearms that meet 1 of the 3 criteria that anybody can look up. it has nothing to do with possession of firearms. there are absolutely no firearms that become lawful to possess just because i have an 03FFL.

by the logic described above (i.e. logging all C&R firearms regardless of method of acquisition), then every time the ATF releases a new "C&R list" then all 03FFLs must go through their firearm inventory and start adding "acquisitions" to their C&R bound book. this makes no sense.

from my discussion w actual legal counsel, the 03FFL applies only if I acquire from or transfer to another 03FFL. if the firearm comes to me via an 01FFL then my silly little 03FFL is irrelevant from both the perspective of legality and documentation.

of course I could be wrong (this has happened before), but the above is how it was explained to me and my best assessment from reading the actual ATF paperwork.