Buying Ammo from your Buddy? You're going to jail!

Rancho said:
well you know how the AG loves to "interpret"....
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The AG does NOT prosecute residents of MA for anything. It is your local DA (ADA) and police who would do this . . . and yes, I do think that they (at least a few DAs/PDs) might try to get a plea bargain based on this law against a MA subject that they want to crucify.

In preparing my MA gun laws seminar, this is one question that I have to date hesitated to ask the proper authorities wrt their interpretation . . . as I'm not sure that I want to hear their answer. [thinking] Therefore, I will only mention that it is a gray area if asked.
 
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If your buddy sold you a few bricks how would anyone know? Unless his intent is to go into business and sell ammo on the side, buying up his surplus isn't an issue unless you dime him out.
 
50 BMG said:
You dont need case law, it states no person, the club is a person, be it the president, VP etc. Clubs need FFL to store CMP rifles. While I was at Mansfield I tried to get the club to get an FFL to store CMP type rifles. The BOD would hear nothing of it. Said it was to difficult and "risky" There are clubs however who do, Holbrook is one. I only know that because I am a member there and have actually seen the license. They also have a license to sell ammunition because of their trap shooting competitions. Gives the members a break so they can practice more. They received their advise form their attorney. So case law,don't know, I am not a lawyer, and NEVER want to be. But with my experience in running a club and being a member of clubs who do sell ammunition , ya got to have the paper. Or you could pay the price.
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One club I'm a member of sells "a round of trap", which includes the targets and necessary ammo. They quite specifically do *not* sell ammo. They're quite clear about that.
 
45collector said:
So if a buddy and I decide to split 1000 rounds of ammo, and I happen to be the one picking it up, I would be breaking the law by bringing it to him and collecting the predetermined amount of money for the ammo? WTF.
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This is more of what I was thinking. And I'm not talking a case of ammo. I'm talking more like I have a few boxes of 270 that I don't use because I no longer have the firearm.

I guess I now would meet my buddy over in RI and do it there...then I'm no longer selling ammo in MA...I'm selling it in RI where I don't need a license.
 
If your splitting the cost your not selling anything. Your both legal to purchase said ammo. You guys are WAY over thinking this law.

The one thing I could say to that is if you add + .01 penny to the cost of that ammunition when you split it that's where the gray area starts. You could say that any increase on the cost is a sale because there was a profit.
 
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Dirtypacman said:
If your splitting the cost your not selling anything. Your both legal to purchase said ammo. You guys are WAY over thinking this law.

The one thing I could say to that is if you add + .01 penny to the cost of that ammunition when you split it that's where the gray area starts. You could say that any increase on the cost is a sale because there was a profit.
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But are we? If I pay for the ammo because I picked it up...then when I see my buddy, I collect half the cost and hand him the ammo. Technically, I just sold him the other half of the ammo. If I made a profit or not, it doesn't matter...I just sold him half the ammo as I paid for the whole shabang!
 
C-pher said:
But are we? If I pay for the ammo because I picked it up...then when I see my buddy, I collect half the cost and hand him the ammo. Technically, I just sold him the other half of the ammo. If I made a profit or not, it doesn't matter...I just sold him half the ammo as I paid for the whole shabang!
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Do you make a sales receipt for the purchase for your buddy - that constitutes a sale. Money exchanging hands does not, specifically reimbursement would be what I was asking for. I can see why there is a concern but until I see/hear/read about an instance of prosecution for buying your buddy some extra .45 while your out I am not going to over analyze it.

If your buddy loans you $100 so you can pick up a new rifle for yourself does that constitute a straw purchase?
If I then loan that rifle to my friend to go hunting once a month but were both licensed can I then be prosecuted for a straw sale. I would think no on both instances even though it was not "my money" I was buying the rifle with and my buddy actually has the rifle in his possession at times.
 
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[horse][horse]

Can't we just trade? We all used to trade. Either trade with goods, currency or precious metal. I can write up our trade agreement and lay down trade policies between traders.
 
chinalfr said:
[horse][horse]

Can't we just trade? We all used to trade. Either trade with goods, currency or precious metal. I can write up our trade agreement and lay down trade policies between traders.
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I think I will take TRADE for $2000 Alex
May be smart to just start always referring to any ammo exchanges in MA as trades only as no "sales" are allowed.
 
50 BMG said:
Its even worse than that. You have a buddy who has a rifle and or pistol and you have the same one. He/she is having some problems with it ...lets say ejecting the last shell. You also had the same issue. If you repair that firearm you are to have a Gunsmiths license.
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At least on the Federal side this isn't true. Anyone can repair a firearm as long as the owner is in attendance. That said, if someone does it as a business without a license, on a regular basis, the feds will start getting antsy. (like they did with that guy who used to be here that engraved firearms for people, but he didn't have an 01 FFL.... and some ATF type got snippy with him about it, even though the owners were always right there when he did it. )

-Mike
 
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cockpitbob said:
I hate seeing comments like this in this forum There's a big difference between not getting caught and actually obeying the law.
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Ok then have your buddy "give you" the ammo for free. Then pick up the tab at the bar & restaurant afterward. If it's about a financial transaction for the ammo, then don't initiate a financial transaction for the ammo. Skippy, here are 2 bricks of .40 for FREE cause I like you. I'm gonna sell you this 6" paper target for 40 bucks though. [grin] No law broken.
 
Dirtypacman said:
Do you make a sales receipt for the purchase for your buddy - that constitutes a sale. Money exchanging hands does not, specifically reimbursement would be what I was asking for. I can see why there is a concern but until I see/hear/read about an instance of prosecution for buying your buddy some extra .45 while your out I am not going to over analyze it.

If your buddy loans you $100 so you can pick up a new rifle for yourself does that constitute a straw purchase?
If I then loan that rifle to my friend to go hunting once a month but were both licensed can I then be prosecuted for a straw sale. I would think no on both instances even though it was not "my money" I was buying the rifle with and my buddy actually has the rifle in his possession at times.
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Honestly, I don't really care...and I was put aback when I saw this whole topic in a post. I would have never thought of me selling a couple of boxes of ammo to my neighbor as breaking the law. That's why I was confused.

But, from reading what people are saying on here...I'm amazed. I guess that's what I get for growing up in the South.

Hell, I once saw powder at a yard sale. I grabbed it right up...I guess that was another law that was broken as he didn't have a license to sell ammo.
 
Bob-Sig226 said:
Ok then have your buddy "give you" the ammo for free. Then pick up the tab at the bar & restaurant afterward. If it's about a financial transaction for the ammo, then don't initiate a financial transaction for the ammo. Skippy, here are 2 bricks of .40 for FREE cause I like you. I'm gonna sell you this 6" paper target for 40 bucks though. [grin] No law broken.
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libtard judge may not see it that way, in fact any logic would fall unto deaf ears. The bottom line is, every citizen is a criminal, especially those who like guns.
 
Unwrap the tin foil people!!!

140-122B deals with Businesses as is outlined in 140-123.... You need to read the whole Chapter!
 
50 BMG said:
Its even worse than that. You have a buddy who has a rifle and or pistol and you have the same one. He/she is having some problems with it ...lets say ejecting the last shell. You also had the same issue. If you repair that firearm you are to have a Gunsmiths license.
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Blatantly Wrong!!

Under C140-121 the definition of a "gunsmith" is - any person engaged in the Business of repairing..... Etc...
 
C-pher said:
But that reads like it's for a Business. Not a private Citizen....
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I am late to the party but so does the CMR that stan sokolowski was charged under. Look, we have people calling us who are charged with A) crimes that don't exist and B) crimes that the very own police report shows they didn't commit. We have at least two of those right now, and I know of one other who isn't working with us.

That this statute exists is likely enough.
 
Half Cocked said:
Unwrap the tin foil people!!!

140-122B deals with Businesses as is outlined in 140-123.... You need to read the whole Chapter!
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Chapter 140 is expansive and covers a lot of ground from licenses to sell junk to licenses to operate a motel. Both individual type licenses as well as business licenses are covered. I'm not sure that you can necessarily take one section that talks about business licenses and apply it to another section that specifically states "no person shall..."

In any case from what I can see section 123 outlines additional restrictions on licensees - I don't see anything in there that exempts anyone from having to get a license or from being subject to section 122 in the first place. I hope I'm wrong.


Edit: With regard to the definition of "gunsmith," I agree with you 100%.
 
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Half Cocked said:
Unwrap the tin foil people!!!

140-122B deals with Businesses as is outlined in 140-123.... You need to read the whole Chapter!
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I am not so sure the context of the chapter is statutorily binding. I am sure it was meant to apply to businesses and 90% of the PDs would see it that way on any given day, but the second they NEED something to get a guy that violated no law but their sense of right and wrong, they will reach for this. The CMR on ammunition is equally written for and designed to apply to businesses but it is being applied to an individual. I don't trust you colleagues to do the right thing. Too often they have proven they are incapable of it.

Half Cocked said:
Blatantly Wrong!!

Under C140-121 the definition of a "gunsmith" is - any person engaged in the Business of repairing..... Etc...
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Correct here.
 
LenS said:
I know that it was written to deal with businesses selling ammo, but agree that it is poorly written (like most MGL) and "could be interpreted" to apply to mere slaves of PRM. It's a "gray area" without a definitive answer.
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I wonder if this is how Lowell is trying to screw Stan? Speaking of which, any updates?
 
I am not so sure the context of the chapter is statutorily binding. I am sure it was meant to apply to businesses and 90% of the PDs would see it that way on any given day, but the second they NEED something to get a guy that violated no law but their sense of right and wrong, they will reach for this.
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This.

Plus, the distintion of whether or not you actually sell is likely to be superceded by your intent to sell. So you can buy a drawing on a napkin for $200 as a work of art, and a minute later "gift" your buddy 500 rounds of .223, but any court is going to look at your intent and the reasonableness of the transaction and call BS.

Don't get me wrong--I wish anyone who has to use the above logic much luck, as the law desparately needs to be revised. With that said, throw a reasonableness mens rea exception into the mix and I think your case stands a good chance of failure.
 
jasons said:
Chapter 140 is expansive and covers a lot of ground from licenses to sell junk to licenses to operate a motel. Both individual type licenses as well as business licenses are covered. I'm not sure that you can necessarily take one section that talks about business licenses and apply it to another section that specifically states "no person shall..."
.
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It all applies to businesses...... The words "no person shall" is used because the licenses are issued to the "persons".

You can stress about it all you want but when you read the entire firearms laws it is pretty clear to me that it applies to businesses.

I have been wrong/surprised before...... Though
 
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