Budget AR parts quality.

[Uzi2]

I've felt PSAs that didn't wobble, either, but it's a common affectation on a lot of cheaper stuff. Of course how much a given person is willing to tolerate
it varies. I've seen some rifles you probably could have jammed a few playing cards between the upper and lower without even trying. Mind you, the guns probably work fine, it's just stupid.

-Mike

If these guns were meant to be tight, tight, tight, there would be a different design on the pins. They are supposed to have some room so the pins can be pushed out easily, not having to be driven out with a punch and hammer.

The Accuwedge was designed to minimize a loose fitting upper and lower and they work well. Lots of precision shooters use them because even they have rifles that have play and are trying to minimize it.

 

[Mountain]

Regarding the upper/lower tolerance wobble, a #7 O-ring pushed to the base of the front upper trunnion will take up any slack. I've assembled 1/2 MOA AR's and used that trick, works as good or better than an accuwedge but will eventually break. Dirt cheap to replace.

More or less like @Stape mentioned, a good barrel, BCG, and trigger / FCG is really all you need. I've built off of Anderson, Spikes, Seekins, Radical, and Windham components with accessories from a variety of sources. Never had a problem with any of it unless I caused the problem. I like the high end stuff well enough and like to see folks shooting it, but nobody's Bravo or DD will outperform my mixmaster AR-bominations. Not saying I'm special, just saying that spending the money on key components gets the job done. Anything else is user preference / ego.

Get a Compass Lake or White Oak barrel, a JP BCG, and Geissele trigger and the rest just needs to be solid, not fancy. At that point, if you didn't bungle the assembly you'll have something that will outperform the most pricey billet boutique AR at 1/2 the cost. Save even more dinero via using a Criterion or Ballistic Advantage barrel.

 

[teamRR]

Regarding the upper/lower tolerance wobble, a #7 O-ring pushed to the base of the front upper trunnion will take up any slack. I've assembled 1/2 MOA AR's and used that trick, works as good or better than an accuwedge but will eventually break.

Just a point, use an Aero enhanced lower and they give you a way to tension it via an an adjustable screw. Isn't "top of the line" either but has a nice integrated trigger guard, a little better made with features Anderson or PSA doesn't have - for an extra $30 or so.

 

[CA139]

Let me preface this with saying I’m not an AR guy. I don’t have a dog in the fight. I’m just wondering what the consensus is on NES. I’m sure it’s skewed and most people won’t read the question and will give an answer completely unrelated.

I have some buddies that love ARs and love to build uppers and fawn over all of the high end parts manufacturers at the same time shitting all over the PSA, Anderson and Delta parts saying that they’re junk and will fail etc.
Now I’m not talking about shitty light weight handguards and flimsy sights but the heart of the rifle. The uppers, lowers, “mil spec” triggers and BCG etc.

How much of this is true? How much of this is hearsay or the fact that there are tons of people assembling bubba rifles from inexpensive parts that know nothing about how the machine works. So when they don’t balance the rifle out right and shear off a gas key they blame the inferior product and not their lack of understanding?
Maybe they’re better off with some high end over built part that can withstand their stupidity.

Or is it just that these low quality parts are actually sold with the possibility of harm coming to the owner?

Never had a problem with PSA but when I shot at the nation's busiest range, Battlefield Las Vegas they told me that PSA makes the longest lasting AR's out there. Not the most accurate of course but was told by one of their armorers that their parts and rifles last about 1.5-2x as long as the next competitors.

 

[Uzi2]

Regarding the upper/lower tolerance wobble, a #7 O-ring pushed to the base of the front upper trunnion will take up any slack. I've assembled 1/2 MOA AR's and used that trick, works as good or better than an accuwedge but will eventually break. Dirt cheap to replace.

More or less like @Stape mentioned, a good barrel, BCG, and trigger / FCG is really all you need. I've built off of Anderson, Spikes, Seekins, Radical, and Windham components with accessories from a variety of sources. Never had a problem with any of it unless I caused the problem. I like the high end stuff well enough and like to see folks shooting it, but nobody's Bravo or DD will outperform my mixmaster AR-bominations. Not saying I'm special, just saying that spending the money on key components gets the job done. Anything else is user preference / ego.

Get a Compass Lake or White Oak barrel, a JP BCG, and Geissele trigger and the rest just needs to be solid, not fancy. At that point, if you didn't bungle the assembly you'll have something that will outperform the most pricey billet boutique AR at 1/2 the cost. Save even more dinero via using a Criterion or Ballistic Advantage barrel.

Thanks for the O ring reminder, I just dug these out of my parts bin I forgot I had them. I don't know what # they are but they work to tighten up any play.

 

[Mountain]

Just a point, use an Aero enhanced lower and they give you a way to tension it via an an adjustable screw. Isn't "top of the line" either but has a nice integrated trigger guard, a little better made with features Anderson or PSA doesn't have - for an extra $30 or so.

Oh yeah, forgot about those. That would be a nice feature. My 6.5 Man-bun (Creedmoor) is built on an Aero upper & lower combo. Integral trigger guard but no tensioning screw.

 

[teamRR]

Oh yeah, forgot about those. That would be a nice feature. My 6.5 Man-bun (Creedmoor) is built on an Aero upper & lower combo. Integral trigger guard but no tensioning screw.

I never needed to use the screws but I almost think the M5s may have them too. Totally are not noticeable but take a look next time you have the upper off.

 

[Reptile]

I recently bought a bunch of lower receiver parts.

I use high end triggers, selectors, bolt releases and a few other parts.

The rest of the tiny parts I get at Brownells.

I buy only the best small parts which means I only buy Colt parts.

A tiny pin that is the size of a grain of rice will cost you $4.00.

If I'm going to build an AR, it's going to have the absolute finest parts money can buy.

If you are on a budget and will buy anything labeled "mil-spec" that's fine but I would not bet my life on it.

Here is a complete kit of lower parts...

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...-kits/lower-receiver-parts-kit-prod27064.aspx

 

[NHKevin]

Never had a problem with PSA but when I shot at the nation's busiest range, Battlefield Las Vegas they told me that PSA makes the longest lasting AR's out there. Not the most accurate of course but was told by one of their armorers that their parts and rifles last about 1.5-2x as long as the next competitors.

Horses for courses.
What works well for one mission isn't going to be ideal for a different mission.

 

[Uzi2]

I recently bought a bunch of lower receiver parts.

I use high end triggers, selectors, bolt releases and a few other parts.

The rest of the tiny parts I get at Brownells.

I buy only the best small parts which means I only buy Colt parts.

A tiny pin that is the size of a grain of rice will cost you $4.00.

If I'm going to build an AR, it's going to have the absolute finest parts money can buy.

If you are on a budget and will buy anything labeled "mil-spec" that's fine but I would not bet my life on it.

Here is a complete kit of lower parts...

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...-kits/lower-receiver-parts-kit-prod27064.aspx

I'd bet my life on any gun that I've built.....and none of them are Colts or Colt parts. I refuse to pay ridiculous premiums for a marketed brand name.

Will not pay for the pony.

 

[Reptile]

I'd bet my life on any gun that I've built.....and none of them are Colts or Colt parts. I refuse to pay ridiculous premiums for a marketed brand name.

Will not pay for the pony.

I trust Colt and Brownells to give me their best parts.

You'll never know if the 1 cents parts are out of spec.

Those tiny parts don't say "Colt" like a lower receiver.

I am very persnickety so I don't trust many other lower kits.

There is lots of talk on m4carbine.net about crappy lower parts kits.

 

[CA139]

Horses for courses.
What works well for one mission isn't going to be ideal for a different mission.

The info I got was with regards to round count. From what the armorer said the receivers never tended to crack, and you could go that many more rounds through the barrels without keyholing, as well as how long you could go without replacing firing pin and BCG.

Honestly with how affordable so many reputable and quality parts are, as well as the outstanding warranties I am seeing less and less reason to build your own. 5 years ago a friend of mine built a couple AR's (a -15 and a -10) for what seemed like staggering sums, I am talking like $2,000-$3,000 for the whole package each. His thinking was to use the highest quality parts possible and that you couldn't get diamond plated, match grade, one hole group at 1,000 yards everything at any price. And if you could it would be much more expensive.

I am no expert, but for example one of his builds was a Grendel with a "Satern" barrel. Supposedly that was the best 3-4 years ago. Now there's even better and you can get an upper with superior parts for just over $500 which is guaranteed to 1/2 MOA at 500y and most barrels are even better with match ammo. Likewise I still have his spec sheet on the AR-10 he built because for a while he kept harassing me to build my own. Fulton Armory now makes something even better and their base model is better than what his nearly $3000 build was just a few short years ago for ~$1,500 out the door, shipped to your FFL.

I think he likes that so much he wanted to do it with me but I don't have the time and more importantly I don't want to deal with all the aggravation of a gun not working and troubleshooting when the factory options are so varied, and so good! Furthermore I am kind of afraid of a home built gun, what if I needed it for self defense or God forbid a family member or other friend had a problem with it with death or injury resulting? These companies even proof test their uppers! Whatever little savings don't seem that economical in light of the inexpensive, and amazing offerings out there on the market, and the protection they provide legally.

 

[Bt74]

I'd bet my life on any gun that I've built.....and none of them are Colts or Colt parts. I refuse to pay ridiculous premiums for a marketed brand name.

Will not pay for the pony.

But....but you HAVE to pay huge money or the parts are no good. That's why the AR snobs won't buy the same part on sale.

 

[uwaeve]

Here's some gun nerds talking about AR qc.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9uApV0IfbU

 

[jpdopes]

Never had a problem with PSA but when I shot at the nation's busiest range, Battlefield Las Vegas they told me that PSA makes the longest lasting AR's out there. Not the most accurate of course but was told by one of their armorers that their parts and rifles last about 1.5-2x as long as the next competitors.

The owner of Battlefield Las Vegas started this thread on ar15.com in which he talks about failure rates of their guns of various brands.. He answers questions throughout and has high praise for PSA. It's a very long but fascinating read. 99.9% of the ARs in this country will never see round counts like theirs but it does illustrate PSA is indeed producing durable parts. High round count AR/M4's (over 100,000 rounds) and how they have handled on our range - AR15.COM

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The owner of Battlefield Las Vegas started this thread on ar15.com in which he talks about failure rates of their guns of various brands.. He answers questions throughout and has high praise for PSA. It's a very long but fascinating read. 99.9% of the ARs in this country will never see round counts like theirs but it does illustrate PSA is indeed producing durable parts. High round count AR/M4's (over 100,000 rounds) and how they have handled on our range - AR15.COM

I think they're obviously capable of producing good parts, but the point about QC is will yours be one of the good ones?

 

[PD7]

[QUOTE=" I recommend checking out School of the American Rifle for some good info about what makes certain parts better than others."[/QUOTE]

This.

I started following him on Facebook and watch every video he posts there. It's an excellent resource and he knows his stuff. He has a bunch of obscure gauges (not just go/no go) and surprisingly finds a ton of things out of spec with even tier 1 companies parts. I was very surprised to see how many "top tier" parts are out of spec.

He runs classes where the students bring in whatever parts they purchased from any and all manufactures so he's able to see a wide field of parts.

 

[pupchow]

Anderson LPK in Aero blem lower. Trigger is not Scottish. Not a huge disappointment (low cost build) but I'll have to spend quality time massaging it.

 

[mac1911]

Let me preface this with saying I’m not an AR guy. I don’t have a dog in the fight. I’m just wondering what the consensus is on NES. I’m sure it’s skewed and most people won’t read the question and will give an answer completely unrelated.

I have some buddies that love ARs and love to build uppers and fawn over all of the high end parts manufacturers at the same time shitting all over the PSA, Anderson and Delta parts saying that they’re junk and will fail etc.
Now I’m not talking about shitty light weight handguards and flimsy sights but the heart of the rifle. The uppers, lowers, “mil spec” triggers and BCG etc.

How much of this is true? How much of this is hearsay or the fact that there are tons of people assembling bubba rifles from inexpensive parts that know nothing about how the machine works. So when they don’t balance the rifle out right and shear off a gas key they blame the inferior product and not their lack of understanding?
Maybe they’re better off with some high end over built part that can withstand their stupidity.

Or is it just that these low quality parts are actually sold with the possibility of harm coming to the owner?

I will say this
If we are talking about mil spec
If the manufactures make the parts to meet specifications then your only paying for a name.

There are budget parts that will use materials or alloys that are not mil spec or unsafe but wont hold up to wear as well.

After that the expense in parts should and is related to quality control.
If company A says they check every part and have a tight pass fail tolerance and scrap all the fails vs Company B makes 1000 units checks 20 and if less than 4 fail they ship them all?
My thoughts are mil spec is mil spec the government goes to the lowest bidder and who can get the number of units in X amount of tine for the lowest price. The M16 family of arms is stilll in military use because its low cost and does what the US military wants it to do.
Is it the best , no . Is it the worst ,no . Its good enough for what they want at a price point they are willing to pay.

Now if you get into fancy alloy and super tight tolerance specs you will pay more.
For ARs I dont see the point.
A good barrel and bolt goes a long way even in a $29 blemished anderson upper.

 

[Dennis in MA]

At my present rate, I won’t shoot 100k rounds thru ALL of my guns in my lifetime. Lol

 

[sschevy]

I literally have a box full of "budget parts" in my shop that have been removed from peoples guns after failing, even have a few video comparisons of the differences

its your money , spend it as you wish but in my experience its not worth the minimal savings with the crap I've seen

 

[mac1911]

Never had a problem with PSA but when I shot at the nation's busiest range, Battlefield Las Vegas they told me that PSA makes the longest lasting AR's out there. Not the most accurate of course but was told by one of their armorers that their parts and rifles last about 1.5-2x as long as the next competitors.

who is the next competitor, if there wont say there getting paid to PSA

 

[mac1911]

I literally have a box full of "budget parts" in my shop that have been removed from peoples guns after failing, even have a few video comparisons of the differences

its your money , spend it as you wish but in my experience its not worth the minimal savings with the crap I've seen

This happens, i think what gets lost in the "build it yourself" is you should be trying to find the best possible deal on known good parts.
I purchased alot of parts on group buys. Most have been name brand quality stuff for a very good discount.

 

[sschevy]

This happens, i think what gets lost in the "build it yourself" is you should be trying to find the best possible deal on known good parts.
I purchased alot of parts on group buys. Most have been name brand quality stuff for a very good discount.

I agree with you , not all quality parts are expensive but cheap parts are exactly that.... cheap

I myself would rather spend the extra $20 to get a bolt that is MPI and HP tested over one that is not considering there’s literally a explosion happening next to my face every time I pull the trigger

 

[sschevy]

who is the next competitor, if there wont say there getting paid to PSA

This statement contradicts a published, page long interview, with the owner of that range

He goes through what brands work and what fails in the article and nowhere is PSA mentioned , actually he does trash a few manufacturers but doesn’t out the by name (Anderson being one of the obvious nameless manufacturers)

 

[CA139]

who is the next competitor, if there wont say there getting paid to PSA

I don't remember although he mentioned a lot. I am no expert because I got into the Assault Rifles late in the game but he said the rest are all pretty much similar.

Remember this is a 25 year old Armorer that took our group out to the desert to shoot a bunch of stuff for the afternoon. I don't think he was in the position to be paid. Never say never but it was very off the cuff and informal and it wasn't management or official.

And yes, most people will never get to the round counts they do.

 

[CrackPot]

I don't remember although he mentioned a lot. I am no expert because I got into the Assault Rifles late in the game but he said the rest are all pretty much similar.

Cool. What NFA assault rifles did you purchase? I have never taken the dive into the ever increasing prices of the full auto NFA assault rifle market. (M16, M4, full auto AK47, etc)

Or did you mean modern sporting rifles, semi auto rifles built in the Armalite 15 (armalite model 15 is what AR-15 stands for) pattern?

 

[Dennis in MA]

I literally have a box full of "budget parts" in my shop that have been removed from peoples guns after failing, even have a few video comparisons of the differences

its your money , spend it as you wish but in my experience its not worth the minimal savings with the crap I've seen

I'd like to know which were junk. And what specific parts. I'm not doubting your blanket statement, but I'd like to get an idea of what has failed in the past. To help the little guys.

I don't remember although he mentioned a lot. I am no expert because I got into the Assault Rifles late in the game but he said the rest are all pretty much similar.

Remember this is a 25 year old Armorer that took our group out to the desert to shoot a bunch of stuff for the afternoon. I don't think he was in the position to be paid. Never say never but it was very off the cuff and informal and it wasn't management or official.

And yes, most people will never get to the round counts they do.

Wait. A 25yo armorer is telling you what is what on AR's. Not a 25yr veteran, but a 25yo armorer???? Again, I'm not looking for a fight, but I don't trust the 25yo armorer. The immense likelihood is that he's parroting what mgmt says. MOST people take a LONG time to form their own opinions versus the ones spoon-fed to them.

My point is that you could totally BS a 25yo armorer. Short of having some pretty good stats on the individual guns and tracking it over time, it's really just a "feeling" that is reinforced every time they notice a gun that has a long time between service and another of another make that has a problem. ("See? That Chevy is in the shop. They're trash. I've had 3 Fords and not one of them has even had an oil change in 50 years!")

My FURTHER point is that there is zero chance that PSA makes the best best best and "all the rest" are pretty much equal. That's the Magic Grits argument. (3 degrees befoah top dead cennah)

 

[Remote Camper]

Then there there is always the “ YOU’RE NOT IN BATTLE” argument I give all the elitists out there.
Parts durability is one thing, but then there is the fact that most people can’t SEE a 1000 meter target let alone hit one.

There are some parts that just don’t matter if you spend $69 or $200.

I have broken down AR parts to what can be customized. The answer is Everything but 12.

AR-15 elitists are worse than Massachusetts liberals.

 

[CA139]

Cool. What NFA assault rifles did you purchase? I have never taken the dive into the ever increasing prices of the full auto NFA assault rifle market. (M16, M4, full auto AK47, etc)

Or did you mean modern sporting rifles, semi auto rifles built in the Armalite 15 (armalite model 15 is what AR-15 stands for) pattern?

I don't own any assault weapons yet but was thinking of buying an AR and an AK before they get banned. AK prices have skyrocketed in recent years, wish I had bought one years ago but AR prices have dropped precipitously.