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Biden DOJ Floats New Rule To Crack Down On Private Gun Sellers

VetteGirlMA said:
Selling just one gun is considered a crime now without a background check? So much for selling those safe queens still in the boxes.
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in an old russian proverb it says - an every sly-smart a**h*** will be f#cked with a cork-screw shaped dick.

the whole confiscation agenda of course needs a measure that would prevent any private sales, when it will begin. otherwise what`s the point?
and it will be no raids - just the IRS imposed new tax of, say, $10K per gun, $100K per offense per each tax year plus penalties, and all guns will be submitted to newly armed IRS personnel purely voluntarily, until your records will be cleared.

it is a war on an every law abiding moron in this country who still works for a paycheck, pays taxes and depends upon ADP to issue a paycheck to the bank.
a solution to that is well known, and it will be truly nasty when most people here will stop dealing with government services and will go into cash only transactions and black market activities, like most of the developing world lives.
 
Junior314 said:
At least she’s elected.

As opposed to some schmuck in the ATF making things up on a whim.
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My point is they're idiots

I don't want that idiot trying to set policy on some concept miles over her head

But i agree the administrative state needs to be gone
 
paul73 said:
in an old russian proverb it says - an every sly-smart a**h*** will be f#cked with a cork-screw shaped dick.

the whole confiscation agenda of course needs a measure that would prevent any private sales, when it will begin. otherwise what`s the point?
and it will be no raids - just the IRS imposed new tax of, say, $10K per gun, $100K per offense per each tax year plus penalties, and all guns will be submitted to newly armed IRS personnel purely voluntarily, until your records will be cleared.

it is a war on an every law abiding moron in this country who still works for a paycheck, pays taxes and depends upon ADP to issue a paycheck to the bank.
a solution to that is well known, and it will be truly nasty when most people here will stop dealing with government services and will go into cash only transactions and black market activities, like most of the developing world lives.
Click to expand...

IRS has spent $10 million on ‘weaponry and gear’ since start of coronavirus pandemic, report says​

Internal Revenue Service purchases reportedly include rifles, tactical shotguns​

The Internal Revenue Service has spent $10 million on "weaponry and gear," including rifles and tactical shotguns, since the start of the coronavirus pandemic, a new report says.
The findings from OpenTheBooks come as the IRS is looking to hire special agents who will carry guns and make arrests, with jobs available in all 50 states, according to a posting on the agency’s website.

"The years 2020 and 2021 were peak years at the IRS for purchasing weaponry and gear. Just since the pandemic started, the IRS has purchased $10 million in weaponry and gear," says the report from OpenTheBooks, which describes itself as a nonprofit, nonpartisan "government watchdog organization."

The purchases are said to include $2.3 million on ammunition, $1.2 million on ballistic shields, $474,000 on Smith & Wesson rifles, $463,000 on Baretta1301 tactical shotguns and $243,000 on body armor vests.

IRS PLANS TO HIRE GUN-CARRYING SPECIAL AGENTS IN ALL 50 STATES
IRS building

Fox Business has reached out to the IRS for comment.

OpenTheBooks says that prior to 2020, the IRS already had "4,500 guns and has stockpiled 5 million rounds of ammunition for use by its 2,159 special agents."
"These figures include 621 pump action and semi-automatic shotguns, 539 long-barrel rifles and 15 submachine guns. The IRS purchased buckshot and slugs for their shotguns," it said. "The rifles are semi-automatic AR-15 (S&W M&P 15) and military-style H&K 416 rifles."


"The organization also said there are "now more federal agents with arrest and firearm authority (200,000) than U.S. Marines (186,000)."


IRS SAYS AMERICANS ARE GETTING $20 BILLION LESS IN TAX REFUNDS THIS YEAR
IRS office

The law enforcement branch of the IRS, known as the Criminal Investigation (CI) division, is hiring for these positions at locations throughout the U.S. IRS special agents within the CI division are the only IRS employees who are authorized by law to carry and use firearms. IRS-CI investigates financial crimes, money laundering, tax-related identity theft and terrorist financing efforts.

Under the posting’s "major duties" section, the IRS says that special agents "[c]arry a firearm; must be prepared to protect him/herself or others from physical attacks at any time and without warning and use firearms in life-threatening situations; must be willing to use force up to and including the use of deadly force."
IRS building

Additionally, IRS-CI special agents must be "willing and able to participate in arrests, execution of search warrants, and other dangerous assignments." The job posting adds that special agents need to maintain "a level of fitness necessary to effectively respond to life-threatening situations on the job."

Would-be special agents with the IRS Criminal Investigation division must be able to pass pre-employment medical and tax exams, in addition to passing a drug test and being legally allowed to possess firearms.

Fox Business’ Eric Revell contributed to this report.


IRS has spent $10 million on ‘weaponry and gear’ since start of coronavirus pandemic, report says | Fox Business
 
I figured this would happen when the IRS changed reporting thresholds for hobby and businesses, effectively categorizing anyone who makes a profit - and even a loss - on a product or service a business. I know the big focus here is background checks, but I actually think it's just as much to do with tax revenue. Background checks are a second order effect, and now you have two agencies jointly able to make charges and develop a case against you.

All the ATF looks at is if you are acting as an unlicensed dealer. However, the IRS could care less if you're a dealer or not. Any money you make (profit) is a form of taxable income. Doesn't matter if you just do it for fun, or if you're a hobbyist. The IRS wants its cut. This is to say, you can be in compliance with the ATF and still likely run foul of the IRS. In a vast majority of cases, people are selling items at a loss. However, in cases where guns are inherited and then sold, where hobby activity turns a profit, when an item is considered a collectible, etc. you can be doing right by the ATF and still be engaging in unlawful reporting of income in the eyes of the IRS.

It's all about money.

Practically, what this new final rule would do, is give the ATF resources via the enforcement portion of the IRS, and vice-versa. It effectively creates a new joint task force.

If you're making a profit on something, hobby or business, the IRS wants a cut. In my opinion, what background checks really do is make sure there is, at the very least, a record of commerce. Because even if you go through a background check, and you don't come across the ATFs radar, that doesn't mean you've still satisfied the requirements of the IRS. Even if it's just a hobby to you, it's still income tax (you just wouldn't pay the self-employment taxes).

Also: just because you don't have a business license, or an LLC, or business insurance etc. doesn't mean you aren't a business, and it doesn't mean you aren't in retail, or gunsmithing, or whatever. Absent all of this, you're still either a hobbyist who earns additional income or a self-employed sole proprietor.
 
safetyfirst2125 said:

IRS has spent $10 million on ‘weaponry and gear’ since start of coronavirus pandemic, report says​

Internal Revenue Service purchases reportedly include rifles, tactical shotguns​

The Internal Revenue Service has spent $10 million on "weaponry and gear," including rifles and tactical shotguns, since the start of the coronavirus pandemic, a new report says.
The findings from OpenTheBooks come as the IRS is looking to hire special agents who will carry guns and make arrests, with jobs available in all 50 states, according to a posting on the agency’s website.

"The years 2020 and 2021 were peak years at the IRS for purchasing weaponry and gear. Just since the pandemic started, the IRS has purchased $10 million in weaponry and gear," says the report from OpenTheBooks, which describes itself as a nonprofit, nonpartisan "government watchdog organization."

The purchases are said to include $2.3 million on ammunition, $1.2 million on ballistic shields, $474,000 on Smith & Wesson rifles, $463,000 on Baretta1301 tactical shotguns and $243,000 on body armor vests.

IRS PLANS TO HIRE GUN-CARRYING SPECIAL AGENTS IN ALL 50 STATES
IRS building

Fox Business has reached out to the IRS for comment.

OpenTheBooks says that prior to 2020, the IRS already had "4,500 guns and has stockpiled 5 million rounds of ammunition for use by its 2,159 special agents."
"These figures include 621 pump action and semi-automatic shotguns, 539 long-barrel rifles and 15 submachine guns. The IRS purchased buckshot and slugs for their shotguns," it said. "The rifles are semi-automatic AR-15 (S&W M&P 15) and military-style H&K 416 rifles."


"The organization also said there are "now more federal agents with arrest and firearm authority (200,000) than U.S. Marines (186,000)."


IRS SAYS AMERICANS ARE GETTING $20 BILLION LESS IN TAX REFUNDS THIS YEAR
IRS office

The law enforcement branch of the IRS, known as the Criminal Investigation (CI) division, is hiring for these positions at locations throughout the U.S. IRS special agents within the CI division are the only IRS employees who are authorized by law to carry and use firearms. IRS-CI investigates financial crimes, money laundering, tax-related identity theft and terrorist financing efforts.

Under the posting’s "major duties" section, the IRS says that special agents "[c]arry a firearm; must be prepared to protect him/herself or others from physical attacks at any time and without warning and use firearms in life-threatening situations; must be willing to use force up to and including the use of deadly force."
IRS building

Additionally, IRS-CI special agents must be "willing and able to participate in arrests, execution of search warrants, and other dangerous assignments." The job posting adds that special agents need to maintain "a level of fitness necessary to effectively respond to life-threatening situations on the job."

Would-be special agents with the IRS Criminal Investigation division must be able to pass pre-employment medical and tax exams, in addition to passing a drug test and being legally allowed to possess firearms.

Fox Business’ Eric Revell contributed to this report.


IRS has spent $10 million on ‘weaponry and gear’ since start of coronavirus pandemic, report says | Fox Business
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Some were crying in another thread about how desperately they need funding to hire new IRS agents and yet…

They seem to have money to kit out all those agents that totally will not be carrying guns with all the best gear.
 
PappyM3 said:
As of last year, Congress changed the definition to remove “livelihood”.

“(Sec. 12002) This section revises the definition of engaged in the business as applicable to a firearms dealer who is required to be federally licensed. Specifically, it provides that a person who sells firearms to predominantly earn a profit (currently, who sells firearms with the principal objective of livelihood and profit) is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms and is therefore required to be federally licensed.”

Republican sellouts helped them creep towards universal background checks. But I can’t find the complete new USC at the moment.
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Not to nitpick, but it says firearms..
So if you only sold one firearm, it would be exempt, right?
 
michaelpelosillc said:
All the ATF looks at is if you are acting as an unlicensed dealer. However, the IRS could care less if you're a dealer or not. Any money you make (profit) is a form of taxable income. Doesn't matter if you just do it for fun, or if you're a hobbyist. The IRS wants its cut. This is to say, you can be in compliance with the ATF and still likely run foul of the IRS. In a vast majority of cases, people are selling items at a loss. However, in cases where guns are inherited and then sold, where hobby activity turns a profit, when an item is considered a collectible, etc. you can be doing right by the ATF and still be engaging in unlawful reporting of income in the eyes of the IRS.
Click to expand...

The bolded part is incorrect.

If you inherit something, its cost basis is its value when you inherit it, not zero. So if you sell you only pay tax on the appreciation since the date you inherited it, not on its total value. What the stuff cost new or what the benefactor paid for it is irrelevant.

e.g.: Your great aunt dies and leaves you her entire $2.3M gun collection. You sell it for $2,300,001. Because the cost basis is $2.3M (the value when she died) you only pay capital gains tax on the $1.

This is true for other assets, too: mutual funds, real estate, cash, cars, etc.

And, the federal exemption for inheritance tax is huge, like $13M per person ($26M for a couple) so the estate won't pay any federal tax unless the estate is very, very large. Massachusetts' estate exemption is relatively small at only $1M, but even then the max bracket for Mass estate taxes is 16% when estates get "pretty big", so it's mostly not an issue for most of us.


Another thing to consider is that if the IRS starts taxing us on every f***ing thing we sell, we'll start to see people classifying everything they sell for less than they paid for it (like at yard sales or craigslist or whatever) as a capital loss. That's going to eat into IRS revenue, and it's a path they don't really want to follow as it'll just make *EVERYONE* angry and reduce revenue. Sella $25k car for $3k? $22k of capital loss to balance out $22k of capital gain in the stock market (or real estate, or whatever)
 
milktree said:
The bolded part is incorrect.

If you inherit something, its cost basis is its value when you inherit it, not zero. So if you sell you only pay tax on the appreciation since the date you inherited it, not on its total value. What the stuff cost new or what the benefactor paid for it is irrelevant.

e.g.: Your great aunt dies and leaves you her entire $2.3M gun collection. You sell it for $2,300,001. Because the cost basis is $2.3M (the value when she died) you only pay capital gains tax on the $1.

This is true for other assets, too: mutual funds, real estate, cash, cars, etc.

And, the federal exemption for inheritance tax is huge, like $13M per person ($26M for a couple) so the estate won't pay any federal tax unless the estate is very, very large. Massachusetts' estate exemption is relatively small at only $1M, but even then the max bracket for Mass estate taxes is 16% when estates get "pretty big", so it's mostly not an issue for most of us.


Another thing to consider is that if the IRS starts taxing us on every f***ing thing we sell, we'll start to see people classifying everything they sell for less than they paid for it (like at yard sales or craigslist or whatever) as a capital loss. That's going to eat into IRS revenue, and it's a path they don't really want to follow as it'll just make *EVERYONE* angry and reduce revenue. Sella $25k car for $3k? $22k of capital loss to balance out $22k of capital gain in the stock market (or real estate, or whatever)
Click to expand...
I agree - didn't word correctly. I meant that the mere act of selling inherited firearms can get a thumbs up from the ATF and a thumbs down from the IRS. In my experience, very few people are aware that any appreciated, realized value on collectibles/antiques are actually taxable. Then again, polite society really doesn't consider a hobby or random sale of something to be considered "income." As far as the IRS taxing everything...when I was a tax preparer, families who inherited jeweler, furniture, etc. were always advised to get it appraised by estate lawyers. I had two families that were ecstatic that the the lot of inherited items had offers, in total, for a few thousand more than the appraised value. Then, we had to tell them that the capital gains, though limited, would still need to be paid.

And the follow-up question was "Can we just say we didn't make anything on the sale?"

And the people who made a few grand doing things like babysitting, house cleaning on the side...it's crazy to have to explain to them that "Yes, you are a business."

In any case, I get the feeling that the whole thing about "enhanced background checks" ultimately comes down to money. Yes, you may be in violation of "Firearms law," but it's all a financial crime (unless you know the private party is a prohibited person, it's to facilitate a straw purchase etc). I'm surprised the ATF hasn't moved to increase the cost of tax stamps in line with inflation.

The good news is, if you get an FFL, a lot of your market place fees/cost of selling are legitimate write offs. So many cases involving people acting like dealers without an FFL happen to live in states where getting an FFL is incredibly easy.
 
michaelpelosillc said:
The good news is, if you get an FFL, a lot of your market place fees/cost of selling are legitimate write offs. So many cases involving people acting like dealers without an FFL happen to live in states where getting an FFL is incredibly easy.
Click to expand...

If Mass. allowed kitchen-table FFLs, I'd have gotten one 20 years ago. :(
 
Mesatchornug said:
This is why the license isn't needed for small amounts but you are expected to self-report on your taxes as a schedule c. That nobody does doesn't change this. In fact, it's why PayPal and eBay need to send 1099s at the end of the year - they're trying to crack down on it.

But "in the business" is a different bar than "buy with the intent of selling for profit"
Click to expand...
Then I have nothing to worry about. I've always lost money if I've gotten rid of anything. That's why Ebay and 1099's annoys me. I've lost money on anything I've sold, so they shouldn't make it look like I've made money (or make me prove that I've lost money, since that takes time, which is money).
jkelly1229 said:
But i agree the administrative state needs to be gone
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I work for the .gov Too many people are making "administative" decisions, instead of looking at the law that is written in black and white. "We don't take that form". (Uh, yes, we do. It's right here in black and white). "Well, that should be listed as (insert item), so you need this license." Umm, no. Look here at the statute - it does NOT require that license, since it doesn't meet the requirements for licensing. Unfortunately, too many "opinions" without looking at what the regs actually say, and zero common sense applied.
milktree said:
Another thing to consider is that if the IRS starts taxing us on every f***ing thing we sell, we'll start to see people classifying everything they sell for less than they paid for it (like at yard sales or craigslist or whatever) as a capital loss. That's going to eat into IRS revenue, and it's a path they don't really want to follow as it'll just make *EVERYONE* angry and reduce revenue. Sella $25k car for $3k? $22k of capital loss to balance out $22k of capital gain in the stock market (or real estate, or whatever)
Click to expand...
"That's the way he wants; well, he gets it". If you're going to send 1099's and I have to prove that I didn't make money, my time, and all of your fees, are going to be added to my loss and you are going to owe me.
 
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Can you imagine how many irs agents are going to be needed to now check everyone who sells more then $600 in online payment platforms and receive 1099's.
 
SBN701 said:
Can you imagine how many irs agents are going to be needed to now check everyone who sells more then $600 in online payment platforms and receive 1099's.
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85,000?

It’s all electronic though. So they take 1099’s against your SSN, electronically check your tax return, if not reported, audit.
 
Mesatchornug said:
At the proposed level? Yes. That's their goal. And that is beyond the pale.

Just saying that buying a gun for the purpose of selling it looks like commerce isn't unreasonable on its face. But who is to know what your purpose was in buying it unless you go around announcing it?
Click to expand...
Don't most people who sell a gun they just recently bought and found they didn't like it end up selling it for less than what they bought it? If so, that "business" is losing money and a business not in business to make a profit isn't business at all.
 
safetyfirst2125 said:
The chilling effect this would have would be nobody would dare sell a gun to anyone and do an ef10 without being an FFL, or risk the knock at the door, and years in jail or at least big time cash in legal fees.

This would effectively kill gunbroker etc
Click to expand...
Many of the sellers on gunbroker are already FFLs. Anyone not an FFL who would want to sell would have to go thru an FFL, the loss being the consignment fee.

Gunbroker would still be around, too many used guns people want to sell and the internet is a huge market.
 
T-Unit said:
Many of the sellers on gunbroker are already FFLs. Anyone not an FFL who would want to sell would have to go thru an FFL, the loss being the consignment fee.

Gunbroker would still be around, too many used guns people want to sell and the internet is a huge market.
Click to expand...
Understood. I’ve used GB, but with this rule change, if it went through, anyone selling would themselves have to be an FFL, not just use an FFL. Or risk jail time.

At least that’s the way it appears.
 
T-Unit said:
Don't most people who sell a gun they just recently bought and found they didn't like it end up selling it for less than what they bought it? If so, that "business" is losing money and a business not in business to make a profit isn't business at all.
Click to expand...
Is that "buying for the purpose of selling"?
 

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