Biden DOJ Floats New Rule To Crack Down On Private Gun Sellers

[safetyfirst2125]

Prob dupe but just in case…this sounds insane

Biden DOJ Floats New Rule To Crack Down On Private Gun Sellers | The Daily Caller

Biden DOJ Floats New Rule To Crack Down On Private Gun Sellers

The DOJ released an intent of proposed rulemaking Thursday that would increase regulations for gun sellers, according to a press release from the agency.

dailycaller.com

View: https://x.com/natlgunrights/status/1697319984626634956?s=46&t=bv1C9X-IfKErpXk7VC470g

 

[MGnoob]

Ya I just read that.
It drives me insane because I have no problem. Getting an FFL out of my home though I don’t wanna shell out money for a building. That’s never gonna get used.
But the feds or state combined won’t let me do that. But now they’re saying I’m a gun dealer if I sell a gun talk about having it both ways.

 

[MGnoob]

“[E]ven a single firearm transaction or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence (e.g., where a person represents to others a willingness to acquire more firearms for resale or offers more firearms for sale), may require a license”

That’s as clear as mud and can be enforced. Anyway, they want the difference is I already on all my Guns I’m not buying anymore.
If you’re acquiring them to sell them than it’s a problem? that doesn’t even make you a gun dealer by any definition unless you already have a buyer lined up before you acquire it..?

Anyway, the shame is the wording is I would apply for my FFL, and then sue the feds and the state for not issuing me one… but at the end of it it says “may require” so I guess it’s totally up to the ATF to determine that
That’s not a law it’s tyranny

 

[The Anchor]

Watching the guns and gadgets video on it now, just more mud they can sling at you.

 

[Junior314]

The administrative state is/will be the death of this country.

 

[MGnoob]

I like this comment on the article I’m gonna start using that one

“Saw a movie once where only cops and the army had guns, it was called Schindler's List.”

 

[hunt4riches]

I like this comment on the article I’m gonna start using that one

“Saw a movie once where only cops and the army had guns, it was called Schindler's List.”

Schindler's List 2: Canada

 

[Mesatchornug]

If you’re acquiring them to sell them than it’s a problem? that doesn’t even make you a gun dealer by any definition unless you already have a buyer lined up before you acquire it..?

Buying something for the purpose of selling it is pretty much definitional retail. You're thinking of straw purchases when you add the need for a prearranged buyer.

Which is not to say I support their interpretation. Just that this isn't where they're losing the plot. The idea that one sale could require a FFL?

 

[safetyfirst2125]

The idea that one sale could require a FFL?

wouldn’t this effectively ban private sales?

 

[Mesatchornug]

wouldn’t this effectively ban private sales?

At the proposed level? Yes. That's their goal. And that is beyond the pale.

Just saying that buying a gun for the purpose of selling it looks like commerce isn't unreasonable on its face. But who is to know what your purpose was in buying it unless you go around announcing it?

 

[gerrycaruso]

Biden is a senile a**h*** who in his infrequent lucid moments, is doing his best to destroy this country.

 

[milktree]

Buying something for the purpose of selling it is pretty much definitional retail. You're thinking of straw purchases when you add the need for a prearranged buyer.

No, it’s not.

If you happen to see a good deal on a bunch of Hummels at a yard sale, you buy a bunch and sell them for a profit, that doesn’t make you “in the business of buying and selling Hummels”

If it was, everyone who bought and sold anything on FacePlant marketplace, eBay, or Craigslist would need to have s business license.

It’s well understood that normal people occasionally buy and sell things and sometimes make a profit who are not in the business of running a second hand store.

Hell, if “sell for a profit” was the barrier to entry, anyone who bought and sold stocks would be stockbrokers.

 

[Mesatchornug]

No, it’s not.

If you happen to see a good deal on a bunch of Hummels at a yard sale, you buy a bunch and sell them for a profit, that doesn’t make you “in the business of buying and selling Hummels”

If it was, everyone who bought and sold anything on FacePlant marketplace, eBay, or Craigslist would need to have s business license.

It’s well understood that normal people occasionally buy and sell things and sometimes make a profit who are not in the business of running a second hand store.

Hell, if “sell for a profit” was the barrier to entry, anyone who bought and sold stocks would be stockbrokers.

This is why the license isn't needed for small amounts but you are expected to self-report on your taxes as a schedule c. That nobody does doesn't change this. In fact, it's why PayPal and eBay need to send 1099s at the end of the year - they're trying to crack down on it.

But "in the business" is a different bar than "buy with the intent of selling for profit"

 

[milktree]

This is why the license isn't needed for small amounts but you are expected to self-report on your taxes as a schedule c. That nobody does doesn't change this.

Except that’s not true.

A schedule C is required if you’re “in the business of…”

Occasional sales don’t rise to that bar.

If you’re regularly buying and selling for a profit, it’s a business. If not, it’s not.

There are specific exemptions for lots of commerce-like things: (e.g. yard sales)

You are not required to collect sales tax or pay self-employment tax or get a business license on occasional sales.

Even the ATF’s FFL03 rules say it’s perfectly fine to buy several of a particular gun and sell the ones you don’t want as long as you’re “curating your collection”.

 

[safetyfirst2125]

The chilling effect this would have would be nobody would dare sell a gun to anyone and do an ef10 without being an FFL, or risk the knock at the door, and years in jail or at least big time cash in legal fees.

This would effectively kill gunbroker etc

 

[TJ4]

Wasn’t this nonsense one of the provisions of the proposed HD 4420 bill? Maybe something similar in it?

 

[Mesatchornug]

Except that’s not true.

A schedule C is required if you’re “in the business of…”

Occasional sales don’t rise to that bar.

If you’re regularly buying and selling for a profit, it’s s business. If not, it’s not.

There are specific exemptions for lots of commerce-like things: (e.g. yard sales)

You are not required to collect sales tax or pay self-employment tax or get a business license on occasional sales.

Even the ATF’s FFL03 rules say it’s perfectly fine to buy several of a particular gun and sell the ones you don’t want s as long as you’re “curating your collection”.

Sure. Yard sales are almost always selling at a loss. I agree that occasional activity doesn't rise to being in the business.

And that's the point of the distinction. When does it become "in the business"?

FTATF is trying to say even one time, because Trump empowered them to arbitrarily reinterpret everything and Biden is running as fast and far with that ball as he can.

We agree they're wrong with that. It doesn't change the simple fact that buying for the purpose of selling for profit is core business activity. We just agree, as a society, that there's a minimum bar for it to become a business.

Which is why I started that post with "basically" or "pretty much" or whatever weasel word I used.

 

[pastera]

No, it’s not.

If you happen to see a good deal on a bunch of Hummels at a yard sale, you buy a bunch and sell them for a profit, that doesn’t make you “in the business of buying and selling Hummels”

If it was, everyone who bought and sold anything on FacePlant marketplace, eBay, or Craigslist would need to have s business license.

It’s well understood that normal people occasionally buy and sell things and sometimes make a profit who are not in the business of running a second hand store.

Hell, if “sell for a profit” was the barrier to entry, anyone who bought and sold stocks would be stockbrokers.

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”

Under the current definition a single transaction that has the principle objective of profit does not elevate to requiring a license - therefore it's not illegal to buy a gun you have little interest in but know that it is seriously under priced with the intention of flipping it, especially if it's to fund the purchase of an addition to your collection.

Under the new rule, who knows... I have several inherited pieces, if I were inclined to sell then several have appreciated in value from when I received them. Is that profit? I guess it depends on whether the investigator got laid the night before.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Wasn’t this nonsense one of the provisions of the proposed HD 4420 bill? Maybe something similar in it?

Many proposed bills require all private sales to use FFLs.

 

[jkelly1229]

The single biggest failure of scotus was not to slap down chevron during the vax mandate ruling

 

[safetyfirst2125]

The single biggest failure of scotus was not to slap down chevron during the vax mandate ruling

The moment we allowed federal agencies to write new “rules” that could imprison Americans without passing new laws we lost this fight.

 

[jkelly1229]

The moment we allowed federal agencies to write new “rules” that could imprison Americans without passing new laws we lost this fight.

It kinda made sense I'm going to give those folks a pass

Like it's tough to be an expert on everything so let's hire experts

But it just didn't work obv

 

[safetyfirst2125]

It kinda made sense I'm going to give those folks a pass

Like it's tough to be an expert on everything so let's hire experts

But it just didn't work obv

In my opinion any “rule” change that affects Americans should be first passed by Congress, ratified by the Senate and signed or vetoed by the President.

We’d have MUCH less insanity and Congress would be busy with that crap and less time to think up new ways to screw us.

 

[PappyM3]

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

Under the current definition a single transaction that has the principle objective of profit does not elevate to requiring a license - therefore it's not illegal to buy a gun you have little interest in but know that it is seriously under priced with the intention of flipping it, especially if it's to fund the purchase of an addition to your collection.

Under the new rule, who knows... I have several inherited pieces, if I were inclined to sell then several have appreciated in value from when I received them. Is that profit? I guess it depends on whether the investigator got laid the night before.

As of last year, Congress changed the definition to remove “livelihood”.

“(Sec. 12002) This section revises the definition of engaged in the business as applicable to a firearms dealer who is required to be federally licensed. Specifically, it provides that a person who sells firearms to predominantly earn a profit (currently, who sells firearms with the principal objective of livelihood and profit) is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms and is therefore required to be federally licensed.”

Republican sellouts helped them creep towards universal background checks. But I can’t find the complete new USC at the moment.

 

[Buck F]

But who is to know what your purpose was in buying it unless you go around announcing it?

The ATF will determine the purpose on a case by case basis, of course.

 

[pastera]

As of last year, Congress changed the definition to remove “livelihood”.

“(Sec. 12002) This section revises the definition of engaged in the business as applicable to a firearms dealer who is required to be federally licensed. Specifically, it provides that a person who sells firearms to predominantly earn a profit (currently, who sells firearms with the principal objective of livelihood and profit) is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms and is therefore required to be federally licensed.”

Republican sellouts helped them creep towards universal background checks. But I can’t find the complete new USC at the moment.

This will get adjudicated by the courts to mean essentially what the current rule is since the only historically analogous regulation on firearms sales was the requirement of proofing (safety)
It won't go away because of commerce clause BS, but it will be seriously watered down from what they are trying to do (universal background checks leading to a complete registration).

 

[VetteGirlMA]

Selling just one gun is considered a crime now without a background check? So much for selling those safe queens still in the boxes.

 

[jkelly1229]

In my opinion any “rule” change that affects Americans should be first passed by Congress, ratified by the Senate and signed or vetoed by the President.

We’d have MUCH less insanity and Congress would be busy with that crap and less time to think up new ways to screw us.

I agree now after seeing how much the administrative state sucks

However lol... imagine aoc sitting on a security commitee trying too understand any of that lol

 

[Palladin]

Just joined GOA

 

[paul73]

wouldn’t this effectively ban private sales

sky is the limit of what can be done, if you remove all prejudice. just accept as a fact that there are no laws anymore and whole executive branch efficiently ignores whatever supreme court says.
goal justifies the means.