Atlanta Police Fatally Shoot Black Man in the Back at Wendy's Drive-Thru

Just so I am clear with some of the positions of you folks. The existing training the police have to go through in the academy is not enough. Any ongoing training is not enough. We agree that most cops are good. It is a small percentage of bad apples. Most if not all cops are not properly trained. We think a Federal database is a good idea.

Not saying I agree or disagree. Just trying to understand the position. Anything else need to be added?
 
Just so I am clear with some of the positions of you folks. The existing training the police have to go through in the academy is not enough. Any ongoing training is not enough. We agree that most cops are good. It is a small percentage of bad apples. Most if not all cops are not properly trained. We think a Federal database is a good idea.

Not saying I agree or disagree. Just trying to understand the position. Anything else need to be added?


No deadly force unless life is at risk, just like you and me.

In fact, in general, I think you'd see a lot of support here for the removal or substantial modification of QI.
 
Sad story all around but doesn't this close the case?

Close the case? No. But it's a pretty good defense for sure. I'm not sure the DA being a massive hypocrite is helpfully, legally, but it certainly helps him optically.

What I find interesting is the DA says that tasers are deadly weapons according to Georgia law. That may be true, though I wasn't able to find it. Maybe it's apart of GA case law not statutory law. What I did find is Georgia Department of Safety classifying it as a less lethal use of force:

10.01.5 Less-Lethal Force

C. Electronic Control Devices Consistent with the Department’s policy of using only that amount of force that reasonably appears necessary in order to effect a detention or an arrest, overcome resistance, control a subject or protect themselves or others from injury, the department authorizes the use of Electronic Control Devices by sworn members who have been trained and certified in their use. 1. Description Electronic Control Devices (ECD) are designed to restrain potentially violent persons, when alternative restraint tactics have been used, are reasonably likely to fail, and/or when it would be unsafe for officers to approach a person to apply restraints.

Usage

a. The ECD may be used when it reasonably appears that it will be the most effective less-lethal response to resistance option, balancing the need to arrest or subdue the person; the likelihood of injury to the person, to innocent bystanders, or law enforcement officers; and officer safety concerns.
b. Use of the ECD should be consistent with policy and training received by the Department.
c. Deployment of an ECD against any person shall be considered a use of less lethal physical force. The ECD is not intended to be used as an alternative to the use of deadly physical force.

If a taser is in fact defined as a deadly weapon per GA law, that creates an interesting catch-22. When cops use it, it's less lethal, but when someone else, it's deadly, and therefore cops can respond with deadly force?

Now I understand the argument. A cop lawfully attempting to arrest someone who is resisting, clearly has a right to defend himself against said person, which is hard to do if you are being tased. The issue I have here, is the cop who shot him wasn't being tased nor was he in range of being tased. In order to use deadly force there has to be "an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others". If being tased is an immediate threat to serious bodily injury, the shooting would be justified. If it is not, despite the suggestions by others that because it could have allowed him to then get the now tased officers gun, that is not an IMMEDIATE threat, and therefore the shooting wouldn't be justified.

The way I see it, this is the crux. Is or isn't being tased an immediate threat to serious bodily injury. Not potential threat. Not any injury. But immediate threat and serious injury.

In any case, I do not see how the shooting would constitute felony murder. If it comes up that the guy died not just because he was shot, but because the cop then punted him in the head and didn't render medical aid, that changes things. But just the shooting in the circumstances seen? No way.
 
Ahhh, that old chestnut again. We all get it, there are good cops. What needs to happen is the good cops need to police their own. Good cops that don't root out the problems on their own force are not really good cops. Since they've never done it on their own then they deserve the reform that's coming their way.

Btw.....you're seeing it happen now. In atlanta, the good cop (non shooter) agreed to provide testimony against the maniac cop (shooter). You think that would have happened if there wasnt the enormous pressure to be transparent we have now?


Ok, a couple things...

1. Do you expect me to know how every other cop in my department performs their job? We have 3 different shifts, we have detectives, narc guys, ordinance guys, SROs.... And the city is broken down into sectors. I closely work with a handful of people and I sometimes come across other cops that work in adjoining areas during my shift. How would you propose I "do something" about a cop that I never see and never talk to, that I don't know is doing anything wrong, because I don't work with them and never see them? Please enlighten me. The fact of the matter is I just don't see wrongdoing by the guys in my unit or the guys that I occasionally see on calls. If a guy on the midnight shift that works a different area of the city beats the crap out of some guy on my day off when I'm in bed sleeping there isn't a damn thing Incan do about that. You seem to think there is, so please tell me the answer.... I mean REALLY tell me what you are thinking here, don't avoid the question, if you have the answer I'm interested.

2. I have never seen anything where I felt the need to report another cop for wrongdoing. That's not because I turn a blind eye, it's because these incidents are few and far between. But they make NATIONAL news, and they are highly publicized. So it gives people like you the impression that cops all over the place are just beating and killing people all the time. I can only influence the people I directly work with, which is a handful of guys, who all do the job the right way. If I see someone using too much force, I'll stop them, and I'll honestly testify as to what happened. If I see someone planting evidence or some other crazy thing I will GLADLY report them to my supervisor. That's really all I can do.

It's a very large country with a whole lot of cops. I work closely with about 5, and I occasionally work with maybe 10 more. That's it, out of all the cops in the world I really only interact with about 15, and they don't do shit they aren't supposed to do. So please, since you seem to think you have all the damn answers, tell me what I can do to stop some psycho cop in Minnesota, who I have never met, from kneeling on a guys neck.

Tell me how I can stop some cop in Texas from planting evidence. Tell me how to stop some cop in Boston from using excessive force. Tell me how to stop a cop in my own department, who works on the other side of the city from doing something I don't see and don't know about.

I'll wait...
 
IMO,

If the guy attempting to use the taser on the one officer constitutes "an immediate threat to serious bodily injury", then the shooting was legally justified.

If the guy attempting to use the taser on the one officer does not constitute "an immediate threat to serious bodily injury", then the shooting was not legally justified, and would be involuntary manslaughter, which in these circumstances, is a misdemeanor.

16-5-3. Involuntary manslaughter
(b) A person commits the offense of involuntary manslaughter in the commission of a lawful act in an unlawful manner when he causes the death of another human being without any intention to do so, by the commission of a lawful act in an unlawful manner likely to cause death or great bodily harm. A person who commits the offense of involuntary manslaughter in the commission of a lawful act in an unlawful manner, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished as for a misdemeanor.

Rereading it, maybe actually voluntary manslaughter.

16-5-2. Voluntary manslaughter
(a) A person commits the offense of voluntary manslaughter when he causes the death of another human being under circumstances which would otherwise be murder and if he acts solely as the result of a sudden, violent, and irresistible passion resulting from serious provocation sufficient to excite such passion in a reasonable person; however, if there should have been an interval between the provocation and the killing sufficient for the voice of reason and humanity to be heard, of which the jury in all cases shall be the judge, the killing shall be attributed to deliberate revenge and be punished as murder.

(b) A person who commits the offense of voluntary manslaughter, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than 20 years.


That's my belief from what I've seen so far, just as it relates to the shooting itself, and nothing that happened afterwards (that I've yet to see video of).
 
I would consider being tased a serious threat.

Is there anyone here who wouldn't shoot someone if they just assaulted you and pointed a taser at you?

I would. I think it was a reasonable reaction by Rolfe. That's why the charges leave me so cynical.
 
...and Charlie's new "certification" legislation says MA cops would immediately lose their certification (thus job, and career) if they fail to stop the bad cops from being bad cops.

Who knows if it passes. But whether it does or not, something similar is definitely in the mail.

We already have a 'failure to intervene' policy... that we can get fired with. This is just politics.
 
I would consider being tased a serious threat.

Is there anyone here who wouldn't shoot someone if they just assaulted you and pointed a taser at you?

I would tend to agree, which begs the question, why then does police policy say A" CEW [taser] deployment is to prevent further escalation of a situation and to minimize injury to the officer, suspect, or a third party"? This is the catch-22 I'm talking about. It is a threat of serious bodily injury or it isn't???
 
I got to be honest and say that here in MA, if someone pointed as taser at me.
That I would not even consider drawing, never mind firing a firearm at them.
They would video it and I would be in jail for a long time.
Less than lethal and I used lethal force.
I would expect to be in prison for ten or more years after the incident.

So taze me all you want.
Our police, DA and judges will crucify us for using deadly force over it!

See we are wrong, no matter even if others aren't charged with it.
A crackhead with a gun pointed at me and I taze him.
I'm going to jail.

Welcome to MA where everything we do that relates to protecting ourselves is illegal, but only if you are a law abiding citizen!
You will be charged with something, no matter what.
That I can guarantee!
 
Lol, to add to my above post, which I forgot to do.

As a cop, once you have dealt with the 3rd person enough times and seen first hand how quickly shit can get out of hand and how dangerous it can you learn from your past experiences. So the next time someone wants to fight me just to put on a show for their friends they are likely to get punched in the face and slammed pretty hard because I don't know if they are person #3 and I want to end this fight quickly before it turns deadly for either of us
Find the 'cop' in this photo...

1592515214427.png

Time to start being selective towards 'Patrolmen'...
 
I think the Atlanta cops that ARE showing up for work are freaking nuts.
Your faced with the very real possibility of rotting in a jail cell no matter how right or wrong you are.
I don't know of a job other than career criminal that's worth it.
Put in an application far far from that shit pit and GTFO.
Let them wallow in it.
 
2. I have never seen anything where I felt the need to report another cop for wrongdoing. That's not because I turn a blind eye, it's because these incidents are few and far between. But they make NATIONAL news, and they are highly publicized. So it gives people like you the impression that cops all over the place are just beating and killing people all the time.

Wrongdoing doesn't just include incidents where a cop beats someone up or kills them. Unlawful traffic stops and detainment, illegal questionings, false citations because they didn't like someones attitude, lying about incidents, scamming OT, false police reports, refusing to take complaints or listen to allegations, threatening witnesses or just being abusive in general towards people are all common examples of wrongdoing. You've never once seen an example of anything like that? Either you have turned a blind eye, you don't actually think those things are wrong, or you work for the most honest police department the country has ever had.
 
2. I have never seen anything where I felt the need to report another cop for wrongdoing. That's not because I turn a blind eye, it's because these incidents are few and far between.

You might not turn a blind eye; you're just blind to whether or not it's wrongdoing. You said yourself that you go hard, first and fast, without even knowing what kind of person you're dealing with.

So the next time someone wants to fight me just to put on a show for their friends they are likely to get punched in the face and slammed pretty hard because I don't know if they are person #3 and I want to end this fight quickly before it turns deadly for either of us
 
No deadly force unless life is at risk, just like you and me.

In fact, in general, I think you'd see a lot of support here for the removal or substantial modification of QI.


So, not unlike people's feelings about gun ownership. More restrictions, required training, federal database and the like. In general I think the public would provide quite a bit of support for those changes. You know, if we can save just one life by getting rid of one bad apple, then it is worth it. Got it. Yup I'm on board. Sweeping changes for cops it is.
 
Find the 'cop' in this photo...

View attachment 366355

Time to start being selective towards 'Patrolmen'...
That's almost 20" height difference, and maybe 150 lbs. At that point, I don't care what the little one has between their legs...

Meanwhile, her lack of gear tells me she's riding a desk, but it's Australia, so who knows?
 
I have a sexist streak, but do believe women can do anything they want to. That doesn't mean they are "best suited" for the job.

Imagine this:

That big ol' Aussie male cop wanted to be a Dental Hygienist, instead of a cop. Are you gonna let him into your mouth with those meat-hooks...?
He may 'want' to be a Dental Hygienist, but he's not 'best-suited' for it...
 
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I have a sexist streak, but do believe women can do anything they want to. That doesn't mean the are "best suited" for the job.

Imagine this:

That big ol' Aussie male cop wanted to be a Dental Hygienist, instead of a cop. Are you gonna let him into your moth with those meat-hooks...?
He may 'want' to be a Dental Hygienist, but he's not 'best-suited' for it...

Whoa whoa whoa........my daughter's fiance is 6'2", trains for strong man competitions and is going to school to be a dental hygienist (not a joke). He will put his hands in your mouth, you will like it, and trust me... you will not say a word. :)
 
So, not unlike people's feelings about gun ownership. More restrictions, required training, federal database and the like. In general I think the public would provide quite a bit of support for those changes. You know, if we can save just one life by getting rid of one bad apple, then it is worth it. Got it. Yup I'm on board. Sweeping changes for cops it is.

Why the snark? I'm just answering your question.

I actually think ending QI alone would go a long way toward improving policing as a whole, and it wouldn't require political grandstanding nor endless policy bullshit that is unlikely to work anyway.

So? End QI. Only that. Just that.
 
Cops should be Gladiators. Just don't fu(k up and enter their 'Ring'...
 
Why the snark? I'm just answering your question.

I actually think ending QI alone would go a long way toward improving policing as a whole, and it wouldn't require political grandstanding nor endless policy bullshit that is unlikely to work anyway.

So? End QI. Only that. Just that.


Sorry man.... not trying to be snarky. I was leading you with my initial post. I knew you would bite.

Seriously though. I am not wrong. It is a slippery slope and really not different form our 2A issues. Our politicians, and the general public, have a propensity to enact rules and laws that have a profound impact on the innocent, just to deal with a few morons. You were just proving my point.
 
Whoa whoa whoa........my daughter's fiance is 6'2", trains for strong man competitions and is going to school to be a dental hygienist (not a joke). He will put his hands in your mouth, you will like it, and trust me... you will not say a word. :)
Nope. Not a chance. I 'shop-around' for my hygienists...

1592517523080.png

"Still shopping..."

1592517737064.png
 
Sorry man.... not trying to be snarky. I was leading you with my initial post. I knew you would bite.

Seriously though. I am not wrong. It is a slippery slope and really not different form our 2A issues. Our politicians, and the general public, have a propensity to enact rules and laws that have a profound impact on the innocent, just to deal with a few morons. You were just proving my point.

LOL. Whatever. I'm not sure I see how ending QI fits any definition of what you're saying, but if you weren't serious to begin with, why bother?
 
I have a sexist streak, but do believe women can do anything they want to. That doesn't mean they are "best suited" for the job.

Imagine this:

That big ol' Aussie male cop wanted to be a Dental Hygienist, instead of a cop. Are you gonna let him into your mouth with those meat-hooks...?
He may 'want' to be a Dental Hygienist, but he's not 'best-suited' for it...
If he started putting his hands in my mouth instead of a hook and mirror, I'd look for a new dentist. But then I'm only a little smaller than him so maybe it'd be a good time?
 
I was late to the party on this thread and just got caught up. I'll throw my 2 cents in and try to be brief about it.

1. I definitely think the cops could/should have gone a different direction other than an arrest. I probably would have tagged his car keys into property and tell him to figure the rest out, but I can't let him drive. That being said I don't know what ATL department policy is, so maybe those cops were doing as instructed. Seeing as how the guy was being compliant and not a dick, I personally probably wouldn't have arrested him. I COULD easily make multiple DUI arrests every week...... I think I have maybe 1 in the past 5 years and that's because the guy hit like 8 parked cars... He made the decision for me there. My requirement is to make sure drunk people don't drive, so I do that.

2. I don't know what GA laws are, but that's a good shoot. (Not considering the people in the cars as the backstop, that's a separate issue). First, yes a taser is less than lethal, but it can and is sometimes lethal. Cops that carry them have to go through lengthy training to even be allowed to carry them. We are not allowed to intentionally shoot someone in the upper chest or head with the taser... Because that can cause death or serious bodily harm. Too close to the heart and brain. Plus those taser probes come out pretty fast. You hit someone just right in the eye and that could be game over. The guy pointed it right at the cops head and fired. And had another cartridge to shoot too. If that were me I probably would have remembered Michael Chesna getting hit with a rock, shot 10 times with his own gun and then an innocent woman getting killed. There's a good chance I shoot that guy as well if I'm in the same situation.... But I also might not. Tough to say when I'm not ACTUALLY there.

3. Drunk driver guy made a series of terrible decisions that lead to him getting shot. Decided to drink more than he could handle, decided to drive drunk, fell asleep in the drive through, decided to fight the cops instead of taking responsibility for his decisions, stole a taser, ran, tried to shoot the cop with the taser, got shot by cops. It seems the convicted felon had a BUNCH of chances to make better decisions and didn't do it. PSGWSP

4. In no way do I think the officer(s) should have been fired as quickly as they were. Maybe they violated department policy and deserved to be fired... I don't know their dept policy. But it was CLEARLY done for political reasons to try and quell the riots.... Didn't work.

5. The felony murder and other charges are a complete joke. In my opinion, and based on what I saw on the video I would have handled that call differently than the cops on scene. But what those cops did was by no means criminal. They MAY have violated dept policy, but they very clearly didn't show up to the call with the intent to kill or hurt anyone.

6. It is my prediction cops all over the country are going to back off. More and more cases of cops getting fired, charged, ambushed etc.... This is NOT good for the many good people that live in cities and high crime areas. There won't be any proactive policing, no officer initiated calls, especially on black people... And cops are probably going to take their time responding to stuff. I'm in no way saying I think that's the right thing to do, because it's not.... But that's what's going to happen. Perfect examples recently are Ferguson and Baltimore. Crime rates there have skyrocketed. This will now likely happen everywhere. So my advice to all of you is avoid known bad areas if you are able to.

For those of you that have a poor opinion of cops I can tell you this. I know, for a FACT that most cops come in to work hoping for a nice easy day with no bullshit. Most cops don't want to have to fight some drunk guy, or chase down some kid who can run like a damn gazelle hopping fences after he broke into a house. Most guys want to come to work, grab a coffee, patrol around, chat with some people in their area, take a few reports, and go home with zero drama that day. I admit there are some hardo type guys on the job that want to get an adrenaline rush and enjoy arresting people... But the great majority of cops are just good people that want a zero bullshit day at work. Sometimes shit goes sideways and you have to rely on instincts, training and experience. Usually when situations go crazy it happens instantly. As another poster mentioned (possibly this thread, maybe a different one) there just isn't enough time and funding for cops to train and re-train in every scenario. Couple that with the fact that over the past few decades cops have been getting sent to way too much stuff like overdoses, loose dogs/animals, civil disputes... That's just more crap on our plates we have to train or learn to handle so it leaves less time for better training on stuff like use of force, firearms, vehicle operation etc.

A lot of times its a no-win situation and guys do the best they can with the best of intentions.

I said I was going to try to be brief, I failed, lol, sorry


This guy was on probation right? You would have let him go and just tagged his keys? Isn't the whole probation thing his second chance?
 
LOL. Whatever. I'm not sure I see how ending QI fits any definition of what you're saying, but if you weren't serious to begin with, why bother?
You really don't get it. That's why we're screwed. You crack one door and you blow the rest of them wide open. Think about it just for one second.
 
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