allen-1
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Atlanta Police Fatally Shoot Black Man in the Back at Wendy's Drive-Thru
- Thread starter Reptile
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Roadglide
NES Member
On the flip side in your opinion do any weak hiring processes contribute to some of these issues. Specifically physical standards required for the job. If you look at a part of that video the cop that had the taser taken away from him got absolutely manhandled by the guy. I fully get it. It’s not easy to subdue someone who doesn’t want to be subdued. But I seem to remember growing up most cops were physically intimidating. I work construction and see some of the details we get and think to myself short of shooting me what the hell is that cop going to do to me or anyone else.
Soundwave
NES Member
"the release of an offender from detention, subject to a period of good behavior under supervision."
I'm not saying it means go directly to jail but I'm pretty sure passing out under the influence behind the wheel of a running vehicle would not be considered good behavior. So yes detain him or whatever. He didn't deserve to die. But I don't blame the cops after he fought,disarmed and then aimed a deadly weapon at them.(per the DA) It's a shit situation but it all goes back to where do you draw the line. The guy was obviously breaking the law AND has a record AND was currently on probation. To me that would mean no leniency just following the law to the letter. Where was he from? Are there travel restrictions while on probation?
Atlanta Police Officer Defends Himself Against a Drunk Criminal.....resisting arrest and shooting a tazer at the officer. The DA just announced (on video) a few weeks ago that a tazer was a deadly weapon. It is also a Georgia law that civilians and officers can defend themselves, with deadly force, against someone if they fear for their life or BODILY HARM.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le2v43bUN84
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le2v43bUN84
Absolutely, I think it plays a factor. I was actually just talking about this a while ago with a guy in my unit. We have some guys and girls on the job that are like 150 pounds (or less) soaking wet. We have other guys that are so out of shape they look like a bag of milk. If I was a criminal and a midget and a fat guy were trying to arrest me I would consider fighting and running.
I'm not a big guy by any means. I'm 5'8" and 220. I need to get that down to about 200 though. I wrestled in high school, was in the Marines for a long time, been in my share of fights, I'm much faster than I look... I can handle myself. One of the guys in my unit is like 6'3 250, he played division 2 linebacker in college and absolutely looks the part. People most definitely react differently when he is around. They rarely ever run from him, they very rarely ever fight and people typically are more compliant when he gives them an order.... So yeah, size matters for sure.
But, it's illegal to discriminate against someone so we have cops that are 5'3 120 and we have others with a 50 inch waist who can't run 25 feet
What's a practical solution, do you think? One which doesn't hurt recruiting and retention and affords some semblance of EO (because that's not going anywhere)? Or is it more of a leadership deficiency?
@Picton I don't have the answer. As you said equal opportunity isn't going anywhere and we can't discriminate. But people most definitely react differently when there is a cop with an intimidating physical presence there. I've seen it many times.
Maybe a reverse affirmative action situation. For every cop hired that's under 5'10" they have to hire 2 that are 6'2" or taller.
I do think we should have an annual physical fitness test though. Some of the guys and girls I work with are disgustingly fat and it really is a safety hazard. If I start chasing someone and my only backup is a fat guy that weighs 293 I'm basically by myself, there is no way he is keeping up with the foot Chase and if and when he shows up he will be useless because he is winded.
Maybe a reverse affirmative action situation. For every cop hired that's under 5'10" they have to hire 2 that are 6'2" or taller.
I do think we should have an annual physical fitness test though. Some of the guys and girls I work with are disgustingly fat and it really is a safety hazard. If I start chasing someone and my only backup is a fat guy that weighs 293 I'm basically by myself, there is no way he is keeping up with the foot Chase and if and when he shows up he will be useless because he is winded.
My concern is that if your union/chain of command/national professional organization doesn't come up with something... then someone else will.
And despite my frequent criticism of the po-po, I'd rather see a good, strong, professional policing organization emerge from this, as opposed to a toadying political underclass like Somerville is about to get. Something that reliably avoids JBT incidents because it knows why it should. But I'm a pessimist by nature.
While it seems unfair to judge everyone by a small number of people it seems in your previous post you do just that. If you go 100% hard because the person you are dealing with may possibly be a violent murderer who plans to kill you how can you complain when the average citizen treats you like you are about to lie, cheat, steal and do whatever you can to ruin their life by abusing the legal system to f*** them over? Some cops will do that, and while my next interaction might be with a guy like you who is not out to ruin me, there is a chance it is the other guy who for whatever reason is out to destroy my life and because he is a cop has every tool available to make that happen.
A fair point. I think the difference is when I do it the person has already made a decision to fight me. So I don't treat everyone I see that way. Only the ones that are trying to fight.
So if I'm talking with any random citizen I'll be more polite and respectful than they are being. If they want to bring the level of respect down to slinging insults and talking shit. I'll bring my level down, but I'll still be more respectful than them.
If someone is resisting I'll use physical force to try and gain control, no punches, kicks etc. Basically compliance techniques to gain control for handcuffing. (This is a conscious decision they made)
If someone starts fighting me (a conscious decision they made) I, because I've had to fight with some very dangerous people in the past, have to assume they are very dangerous so I will try to end the fight as quickly and safely as possible.
If someone doesn't want to risk getting hurt they shouldn't start fighting me. It's pretty simple.
If you want to be the first guy and have a conversation I'll talk to you all day and I'll be more polite to you than you are being to me.
When I first became a military policeman my Staff Sergeant taught me 2 things that have served me VERY well throughout my career there and here.
1. Always start with "sir". Basically meaning I start the politeness immediately, and if the conversation devolves into insults, it's because they brought it there.
2. Ask, tell, make. Meaning if I'm giving an order to someone I ask them first, then tell them, then make them. So if I have to force someone to do something I have always given them 2 chances first.
To date I have had 0 use of force complaints and 1 rudeness complaint... But that was from a Karen so I don't even consider that real.
Roadglide
NES Member
I think you answered your own question. Everything can’t be about discrimination but certain people have made it that way unfortunately. We are in an all around shitty situation as it is because of that. People have gone way too far with it now and your seeing all kinds of effed up things happening because we’ve so far out stretched the meaning of the word. I mean I think any reasonable person can understand if a job requires you to be xy and z in order to properly do the job and your not. Well then you don’t get the job. Is that really what discrimination is? I watched a video of the second cop walking out of some building in plain clothes and all I could think of was beaver cleaver. Unfortunately I don’t think the discrimination mentality isn’t going away any time soon.
That all seems reasonable, I mostly have a gripe with the seeming general attitude from police of "I'm not a bad guy, why are you treating me like I am" and for me anyway it comes down to the threat that a cop who feels like it can ruin someone's life in an instant if they are not given the level of immediate deference they demand. This is not a shot at you or anyone else here, but the amount of power a cop has to destroy someone leaves me in the position of not wanting to interact with them at all. Instead of what might be a polite conversation I am forced to not engage on the off chance that the guy I am speaking to is one of the bad ones. Now that cop who may very well be a perfectly fine person is left thinking "What a douche, why does it seem like everyone hates us?". It adds to the us vs them issues and without some kind of change just makes it harder for the two groups to ever come together.
Agree, some people are just too damn sensitive. When I first joined the Marines I wanted to join the Silent Drill Team. I told my Staff Sergeant. He laughed and told me they would never take me, they only take people that are 6'0" to 6'2" or something like that. This way they all look uniform. Makes sense... I didn't get offended, just kind of shrugged my shoulders and moved on. Some things aren't for everybody.
Can't say I disagree with any of this. I personally don't really let that bother me. Im aware that if people have that attitude towards me it's because of the clothes I'm wearing and not me personally. But I also don't treat people on the street like shit. I don't need anyone to like me. I've got my family, my circle of friends, some people I'm somewhat close with at work... The end. I really don't care if people like me outside of the people I just listed. So if I'm patrolling an area and someone yells "F U Pig!!!" I just laugh and wave at them. If they want to get that upset about some guy they don't know driving by in a car that's an issue they have to deal with
eboos
NES Member
You are officially the smartest mothereffer in the room. I could not agree more.
headednorth
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Yes, Intimidation! I'm sure that's the answer! I know he put me on ignore yesterday, but I'm definitely giving 5811 the "Just Doesnt Get It" award of the day.
SpaceCritter
NES Member
Loot, riot, burn. Apparently that's the winning strategy.
headednorth
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Who knew? All this time I thought we just had to vote and write letters to our Congressman
SpaceCritter
NES Member
Shit, riot loot and burn, you'll get a new federal holiday!Who knew? All this time I thought we just had to vote and write letters to our Congressman
Evadd
NES Member
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was easy to subdue someone. I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who has trained in martial arts, and saw tons of missed opportunities to stop that fight early.
What I think I should have said was something more like, "they should be trained to subdue someone better."
CatSnoutSoup
NES Member
It seems apparent on viewing the video that Officer Brosnan's attempt to deploy his taser was fumbling and ultimately ineffectual, and his effort to target a spot on Brooks to dry stun takes up what seems like an inordinate amount of time in the brief scale of the struggle. He might have had more effect simply dog piling Brooks and locking down his legs as Rolfe had hold of him by the torso.
Arm chair quarterbacking is easy, and I am not saying I would have had the presence of mind to do any better, but when I watch the video I am saying, "Dude stop screwing with the taser and grab him."
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No apologies needed. All good. I agree that more training is needed. A lot more. The problem now is everybody wants to cut funds for the man, so the first thing that always gets chopped is training. Catch 22 for the men and women on the street.
Martial arts and all is fine and dandy, but this isn’t Walker Texas Ranger either. Training in it and actually fighting people that are savages to other humans on a daily basis makes it that much more difficult. They’re trying to kill you, or at least hurt you badly, there’s always a gun involved (yours) and you never know if there’s a knife or another gun on them, and you’re required to try and cuff them without actually even being able to strike them anymore and it comes down to now just shear strength on popo’s part vs shear animalistic street fighting from them. Which is why over the last several years we’ve seen like 6-7 cops all on top of someone. It’s not because they’re pussies or can’t fight (some truly can’t and are pussies) but it’s that no one now wants to be the next a**h*** on the news being filmed punching some knucklehead in the face or balls or whatever to get them to stop fighting, so you’re left having to fight sometimes many people a week, from a solely defensive posture while they have no rules except escape at any cost.
Making it worse these days is the upbringing of a lot of the young cops coming on. They are the generation that was raised on 24hr cartoon channels, video games and computers, a fair bunch of them have never even been in a fight before with another kid from their 6th grade class, nevermind being confronted by a 6’3 250lb ripped ex-con who has already sworn in his own mind that he will kill any SOB that tries to send him back to prison, and now he’s got his hands wrapped around 170lb bookworm that always wanted to be a cop.
These are just a couple of examples of what it’s turning into out there, it’s real life, real fighting and real life or death circumstances.
I agree that the shooting of many unarmed folks (I don’t care what color you are, a**h***s are a**h***s) is becoming far too common. If it was up to me I’d take the gloves off the cops short of lethal force and allow them to actually fight back, and train them to fight, because using kid gloves and losing the upper hand is the driving force behind them panicking and thinking ‘oh f*** I gotta go lethal’ out of fear and panic because this f***ing savage is going to beat my ass, get my gun and kill me.
I’m not ranting here just thinking out loud, I don’t pretend to have all the answers and no matter what they do these days they can’t win.
I still place the blame on police administrators being a bunch of hand wringing desk humps who break into a sweat if you’re not wearing your cover outside the vehicle to the politicians that crush the admin’s balls with fear to cut training, save $$ and follow the agenda or else. It leaves the actual workers handicapped and set up for failure.
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headednorth
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Do you think that a lot of guys going into the academy have an unrealistic idea of what it's like to be a cop? Would some sort of pre-academy, pre- probationary period where they ride along for a month or whatever and get first hand what it's like to be a cop on the street in Dorchester, Chelsea, Brockton, etc at 11pm in August help weed out non hackers who watched too many cop shows growing up?
I know they have some sort of ride along programs but Im thinking similar to needing a certificate before you even apply for a LTC, you need to have X amount of ride along hours before you can apply to the academy. Maybe a good amount of people would get an eye opener and steer themselves into a more appropriate career
I know they have some sort of ride along programs but Im thinking similar to needing a certificate before you even apply for a LTC, you need to have X amount of ride along hours before you can apply to the academy. Maybe a good amount of people would get an eye opener and steer themselves into a more appropriate career
Soundwave
NES Member
I'm not sure how it all works but you still need people to actually solve crimes and not just patrol areas and look intimidating etc... If the person is 4'11" but has Sherlock Holmes skills they should still be allowed to be a detective for example
The standards have dropped lower and lower over the years to make sure that any diversity hires make the cut.
That's not being snide, it's a fact.
Guys that would have washed out are making it through because they had to drop the standards so an out of shape minority female doesn't sue the shit out of the city or state for being racist because they couldn't make the cut.
That's not a racist statement it's the hard truth.
That's not being snide, it's a fact.
Guys that would have washed out are making it through because they had to drop the standards so an out of shape minority female doesn't sue the shit out of the city or state for being racist because they couldn't make the cut.
That's not a racist statement it's the hard truth.
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