Armor Piercing 30-06

[FireMedic102]

In my manual that came with my CMP Garand, it lists "M2 Armor Piercing" as a mil-spec ammo for the M1. Is this something that can purchased, or is it illegal? I have no need for it, I am just curious.

 

[Twigg]

If you can find it, get it. lawfull to own.
Some ranges have restrictions on its use though.

 

[hunter46spring]

I believe it is the infamous black tipped 30-06 (top 1/4" of bullet dipped in black paint)

 

[55_grain]

What the previous two posters said. It has 166 grain projectiles with a black tip. You'll see occasional boxes of 1940's and 50's vintage at stores, and there was some re-mfg'd by Talon using pulldown components. Not illegal to own. (I don't know about Boston restrictions). I'd be wary of gunshow vendors selling black-tipped "AP" loose or re-packed on stripper clips; black paint is cheap. A "magnet test" won't necessarily be useful, as many milsurp .30 non-AP rounds have a steel jacket that will attract a magnet, too.

55_grain

 

[drgrant]

It's not illegal. You can pick it up at gun shows all the time. You can also find the AP bullets at the shows, if you want, for reloading. (I agree with 55_grain, though.. buyer beware.... some AP out there is "fake". ) Best way to ferret this out is see if whatever else the guy is selling is legit. I remember at one show there was a guy that had cans of .308 milsurp, he said it was from IMI.... I must've sifted through that ammo can for 10 minutes and I couldn't find one IMI headstamped cartridge. It looked like commercial reloads. Those are the guys to stay away from.

-Mike

 

[SemiAutoSam]

I have 50-100 rounds of the FN AP cartridges left.

This is the last of this ammo.

$100.00 for 50 rounds, or $200.00 for 100 rounds.

Can not included only shown for info.

Im selling this Ammo for a friend and to make it easy on me and him I will ask for cash or a totally blank USPS Money order.

Ammo will be shipped cheapest easiest way, buyer will pay for shipping.

 

[50 BMG]

It's not illegal. You can pick it up at gun shows all the time. You can also find the AP bullets at the shows, if you want, for reloading. (I agree with 55_grain, though.. buyer beware.... some AP out there is "fake". ) Best way to ferret this out is see if whatever else the guy is selling is legit. I remember at one show there was a guy that had cans of .308 milsurp, he said it was from IMI.... I must've sifted through that ammo can for 10 minutes and I couldn't find one IMI headstamped cartridge. It looked like commercial reloads. Those are the guys to stay away from.

-Mike

I was told by another mod on this site that armor piercing ammo was illegal to own in the state of Ma. Is that not true? Good news for Ma. folks if it is OK to own.

I picked up a case at the Manchester show which was from CMP. The seller was walking around with the ammo can unopened and thought it was ball ammo. His dad had passed away and he found it in the garage.

 

[garandman]

In my manual that came with my CMP Garand, it lists "M2 Armor Piercing" as a mil-spec ammo for the M1. Is this something that can purchased, or is it illegal? I have no need for it, I am just curious.

It's quite impressive on engine blocks and the like. It's equally impressive on range fittings, concrete, etc so most ranges that I've been to don't allow it.

According to one source I found, it's illegal in Alabama, Alaska, California, Connecticut, Florida, Kentucky, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, and part of Maryland. But there is no reference to the laws.

 

[drgrant]

I was told by another mod on this site that armor piercing ammo was illegal to own in the state of Ma.

I've never seen anything in MGL to indicate that AP is illegal here. Federally speaking things like M2, M855, etc, are exempt anyways at that
level. I doubt many states ban or regulate it at all, in reality.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

It's quite impressive on engine blocks and the like. It's equally impressive on range fittings, concrete, etc so most ranges that I've been to don't allow it.

According to one source I found, it's illegal in Alabama, Alaska, California, Connecticut, Florida, Kentucky, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, and part of Maryland. But there is no reference to the laws.

At least in the case of MA it's likely wrong. That kinda sounds like the list out of a cheaper than dirt or sportsman's guide catalog.

-Mike

 

[jpattersonnh]

At least in the case of MA it's likely wrong. That kinda sounds like the list out of a cheaper than dirt or sportsman's guide catalog.

-Mike

It is legal in Ma. Wow, I never thought I would say that! Most of the "newer" stuff was 1950's St Louis arsenal. In the '50's St Louis only produced special ammo. I do beleive they were the only one.

 

[50 BMG]

I've never seen anything in MGL to indicate that AP is illegal here. Federally speaking things like M2, M855, etc, are exempt anyways at that
level. I doubt many states ban or regulate it at all, in reality.

-Mike

That's great news Mike. Folks at the shows who sell it sometimes tell folks from Ma. they cant buy it. Due to the crazy regulations in Ma. some dealers just play everything really safe. I guess you cant blame them.

 

[WILDCATT]

ARMOR

is not the pistol ammo and not rifle ammo banned.thats dcm/cmp ammo and exempt.I have a couple cans its very accurate.

 

[calsdad]

I spent some time reading up on the AP ammo in 30.06 just recently - and from what I read here is my understanding:

Armor Piercing (AP) is illegal for civilians to own in any caliber that is considered a "pistol" caliber.

Because there are AR platform based pistols (I believe there is some history around Olympic coming out with the AR based pistols back in the 90's - therefore instantly making .223 in AP instantly civilian illegal) - and I guess at one point a "pistol" was actually produced in .308, civilians cannot own .223 or .308 (or 7.62x51 or 5.56x45) in AP.

Because 30.06 has only ever been a rifle cartridge - AP is still civilian legal to own. I believe this only applies to federal law though, I do not know if the individual states ban AP ammo for rifles.

That being said - if anybody knows where to pick some of this up, I would love to add some to my stash.

 

[calsdad]

Found this on another forum:

1. Federal Law and Armor Piercing Ammunition

by James O. Bardwell ([email protected])

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHAT IS AP AMMO, BY FEDERAL LAW?

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (ATF)]

Note the following things from the definition:

1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
>From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does.

3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
or should be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(8)
(with exceptions for making/importing for law enforcement, export, or R&D).
No additional restrictions, except as listed below. This applies
not only to holders of type 10 and 11 FFL's, but also type 7 and 8
FFL's (makers and importers of guns other than DD's), as well as
holders of a type 06 FFL (maker of ammo other than for DD's).

If you are a licensed dealer, manufacturer, importer or collector:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo without keeping a record of the sale, similar
to the bound book record for firearm sales. (18 USC sec. 922(b)(5)).
No additional restriction, except on dealers as noted below.
The records required to kept on sale or delivery of AP ammo need only
be kept for two years, not twenty years, like firearm records. See
27 CFR sec. 178.121, and 27 CFR sec. 178.125.

18 USC sec. 923(e) allows the revocation of a dealer's FFL
for willfully transferring AP ammo, with exceptions for sales to law
enforcement and so on. This is dealers only; holders of a collector
FFL (type 03) may willfully transfer AP ammo if they wish, but must comply
with the record keeping noted above.

Some states also regulate or prohibit armor piercing ammo, and these
laws may bear no relation to how the federal law works. For state
laws, check locally. The following states regulate AP ammo,
to my knowledge, but the definition of AP ammo and sort of
regulation may (and likely does) deviate widely from the federal
approach. NV, OK, RI, VA, AL, NY, NJ, IL, IN, KS, LA, MN, FL, PA, TX, NC.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The former statute: 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B) - "The term 'armor
piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which
may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding
the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination
of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required
by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes,
a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the
Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes,
including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

 

[BigLickShooter]

I am confused. Based on this thread, most 30-06 ammo will not pierce armor? So FMJ rounds do not penetrate or pierce armor? Hard to believe...

 

[drgrant]

I spent some time reading up on the AP ammo in 30.06 just recently - and from what I read here is my understanding:

Armor Piercing (AP) is illegal for civilians to own in any caliber that is considered a "pistol" caliber.

This is a woefully inadequate analysis of the laws regarding AP ammo.

For example, all that old norinco steel core 7.62 x 39 is legal to own, but dealers generally cannot sell it (although its pretty much gone, making the point moot anyways) because it was banned from import because it got declared as AP when the morons at olympic arms came out with their OA93 in 7.62 x 39.

Some types of ammo are specifically exempted by the feds, too, for example, M-855 ball. There are likely others as well.

-Mike