armed citizens assisting police

Supermoto

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When it's a dynamic situation and both parties have arms flailing, you can't tell just because one is on top and the other is on the bottom.

If you resist arrest and cuffing, you will take a beating of some sort. Doesn't make the officer bad if what he's doing is using "reasonable force" to get compliance. YMMV
An arms flailing situation, using reasonable force to gain compliance is not the same as one person not able to defend themselves, YRSMV
 
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I don't care what the hell they teach you, there are certain situations where it is your duty as an American with a spine, to get involved. Some situations transcend law and ccw classes, and what a bleak and ignorant society we would be if they didn't. That said, I'm not so sure how quick I'd come to the rescue of the same person who is enforcing laws that take away my right to defend myself in this state.
At least some people still have some sense of morals and community. It seems like most side with the police being the only ones "professional" enough to do anything. This same thread in a western or southwest shooting community would have a lot more helping hands.

Yeah, it's not up to me to do anything if I see some mutts beating an old guy or trying to rape some woman in the park across the street. That's the job of the government, just like it's the government's job to see to it that they all have nutritious food to eat, safe and minimally-polluting cars to drive, balanced news reports to read, and a tolerant and diverse workplace. [rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes]

Ken
Yep, please leave all that to the professionals.
 
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SemiAutoSam

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OK so let me understand this, if a cop starts to assault another man or woman its reasonable to draw on them, and hold them at gun point until a neutral party arrives to assist ?

That most likely would have lead to bloodshed on the part of the party holding the cop at gun point but IMO would have been reasonable given the situation in the video above.

IE what gives the cop the right to hurt someone no matter what they have allegedly done.
 
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IE what gives the cop the right to hurt someone no matter what they have allegedly done.
nothing gives them the write, they take it....because they know they can get away with it.....because who is a 3rd part officer more likely to believe....you....or the suspect officer.
 
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I’ll try to keep this brief. While in college I worked mall security for beer money. I responded to a call where a PO was apprehending female shoplifters. I arrive and I see an OFF DUTY PO in PLAINCLOTHES (who I recognized) holding onto the arm of a female who is attempting to flee. Another suspect had already escaped. The officer wrestles her to the ground and uses his body weight to hold her down until “the Cavalry” arrives.

The point is any passerby who saw this could very reasonably believe there was some type of assault taking place. Who’s the good guy? Who’s the bad guy?

And before anyone says it, it’s tough to wrestle with a suspect with one hand and hold your credentials in the other.
 

Supermoto

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Who cares, He is just holding her down Now if the undercover cop is on top on an unconscious women, punching her in the face, then you get involved as its easy to determine who the bad guy is.

Its about helping those that can't help themselves.
 
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Well thought out opinion. Truly indicative of your intellectual prowess.
As opposed to yours which is an indication of a lack of intellectual prowess.

I have a problem when people start spewing garbage about how someone should behave when they are a CCW'er. I didn't get licensed to protect the general public... that includes you too. That's not my job. My job is to protect my own and myself.

Feel free to get involved all you like... tuff guy.
 

Kicker96FS

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As opposed to yours which is an indication of a lack of intellectual prowess.

I have a problem when people start spewing garbage about how someone should behave when they are a CCW'er. I didn't get licensed to protect the general public... that includes you too. That's not my job. My job is to protect my own and myself.

Feel free to get involved all you like... tuff guy.
This.
 
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wolf223

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i think the best answer is to point a gun a your own head and tell them both to freeze or your blow your brains out.

the one that "cares" is the good guy. [laugh]
 
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I have a problem when people start spewing garbage about how someone should behave when they are a CCW'er. I didn't get licensed to protect the general public... that includes you too. That's not my job. My job is to protect my own and myself.

Feel free to get involved all you like... tuff guy.
your right, its not your responsibility as an LTC holder to help people.....its your responsibility as a human being....

i honestly fail to see how you could walk past someone being beaten to death and think "man, hope that guys gonna be OK...ah well not my problem".........





As far as a physical altercation w/no weapons present, I would ask the officer if (s)he needed help if it looked like things were going bad. I've wrestled with enough people in lowly security work (often together w/cops arriving) that I don't think much about that kind of thing. As for two idiots on the street fighting, I don't care what is happening to who, I'm not even considering getting involved unless I saw the entire thing start to finish and it was clear that one was totally minding their own business/not willing to fight. Even then you can't truly be sure. I'm not going to court, answering to charges, loosing money and my LTC for idiots fighting on the street at 2am.
were not talking about 2 buffoons having a spat ........most fights end with nothing more than a few bruises....in that case, let the police handle it....

...were talking where someone is being beaten and its pretty obvious that they are going to be killed.
 
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About 15 years ago in Chinatown at Moonvilla, well after 2am on a weeknight, a HUGE 10+ person melee broke out. Im talking glasses/bottles/chairs getting broke over people heads, guys hitting girls, etc. 1 cop was on detail and was getting tossed around. The workers all fled into the kitchen to hide. My buddy and myself, fresh from working at a bar and full of liquid courage jumped in to help and cleaned house with the cop. I had mace on me at the time and had a blast, pun intended. This went on for 5+ minutes before BPD finally arrived to help all of us out. After the dust and glass settled one guy was stabbed and a few were knocked out cold. The motorcycle cop bought us a couple beers and thanked us for helping. Nobody pulled a gun and everything was handled with hands, feet, billy clubs, and mace. Good times
 
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I will remember what the cops have done in the past working for the gov being just glorified tax collectors at the barrel of a gun.
For someone in his posts seems to be such a stallwart of the individual and of individual rights, you sure do pass judgment on the individual--and in this case also exact your own form of punishment via inaction--based upon the percieved acts of OTHERS similar to him.

I view everyone as individuals with their own freewill. I do not cast aspersions and judgments upon others based upon whatever class, group, or profession of which they may be apart, particularly when actions resulting from said judgment are in the realm of life and death.

I'm sorry some people have had such a bad expeirience with jack-booted thugs--who by they way, are forced to carry out orders issued by their superiors that have been adjudicated legal by Constitutional tribunals.
In MA, likely backup is only a few minutes away and they will also react to what they see upon arrival!

My personal take on this all depends on PRECISE CIRCUMSTANCES involved and can't be generalized.
Agreed. I work in a town in the eastern part of the state where, becuase of the way the roads are laid out combined with the density of the population and overnight manning posture, my backup could easily be 15 minutes out. Even if you happen to be one of 12 cops on the road in a town that's 4 square miles, if everyone else is tied up on other stuff, backup is still a ways out--and all that assuming you can get to your radio to yell for help while you're rolling around with the d-bag.

I know of a few situations where citizens have helped out and it has been most certainly appreciated. About 15 years ago, one of my colleauges in my department stopped a driver he suspected was intoxicated. The driver--who was loaded on PCP--got out and THREW him, an officer easily 220 lbs. PLUS, over the roof of the stopped car. A passing motorist who happened to see this stopped and the two of them were able to handle the guy until others arrived. Had it not been for the motorist, my department might very well have another name on the D.C. Memorial.

Any decision you make will indeed be completely fact-specific. Safe to say however, if you see some guy beating the ever-loving bejesus out of a cop at roadside, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

The thing that pisses me off is that I blame this not on spinelessness, but on the fact we live in a state where our elected officials have gone on record as prefering to "discourage people from self-help". This has created this atmosphere of "not my problem" and "I don't wanna get involved".

And for those who say you have no duty to help--legally, you're 100% correct. But morally, you couldn't be more wrong.
 

Kicker96FS

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Good Morning everyone. So every now and then i'll read a NRA publication...and sometimes there would be an article about how an armed citizen assisted the police with their duties... and it seems like every event has taken place either out west or in the south...my question would be, has anything like that ever happened up in Mass? and if it did happen, was there any rewards or recourse against the armed citizen? and another question...if you did see a police officer in need of assistance and you were carrying at the time what would you do?

some examples http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/officers_peril.htm

The above is the OP.


your right, its not your responsibility as an LTC holder to help people.....its your responsibility as a human being....

i honestly fail to see how you could walk past someone being beaten to death and think "man, hope that guys gonna be OK...ah well not my problem".........

Were not talking about 2 buffoons having a spat ........most fights end with nothing more than a few bruises....in that case, let the police handle it....

...were talking where someone is being beaten and its pretty obvious that they are going to be killed.


I do not see, anyplace in the OP, anything about someone being "beaten to death". The only thing asked was if the cop was in need of help, did not say what kind of help. no elaboration, just "help". Help like what you may ask, like writing a ticket to an unruly person? Who knows?

This thread has blow the OP out of place and morphed into a "WTF is the matter with you!?" thing because people read into the "Assistance" the cop needed, then changed into general help of anyone, mostly being beat to death.

This seems to be the norm here and I have based my answers solely on the OP and the OP alone, not blowing it into some horrible nightmare I might dream up that I become the "hero" of the day.

Just saying, keep it in perspective and re-read the OP and not all the knee jerk reactions of the day dreamers.
 

garandman

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I think southern cops are less militant than the ones here in the NE//)
[rofl][rofl]


I dont think the answer to this question depends on whether you have an LTC or not or are armed at the time or not.

I see it as a very, very unlikely situation that I would ever need to draw a firearm to help a police officer, especially in the northeast. From living other places, our police are mostly "action" and very little talk compared to many other places. The odds of somebody getting the drop on them to the point of me needing to use a firearm because they are unable are just about zero. It would have to be one hell of a dire situation for the officer for me to even think of producing a firearm, like he's disabled and alive and some perp is about to run him over or something. .
Given that something like 95% of police officers never fire their weapon during their career, I think the odds are infinitesimal.
 
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I do not see, anyplace in the OP, anything about someone being "beaten to death". The only thing asked was if the cop was in need of help, did not say what kind of help. no elaboration, just "help". Help like what you may ask, like writing a ticket to an unruly person? Who knows?

This thread has blow the OP out of place and morphed into a "WTF is the matter with you!?" thing because people read into the "Assistance" the cop needed, then changed into general help of anyone, mostly being beat to death.

This seems to be the norm here and I have based my answers solely on the OP and the OP alone, not blowing it into some horrible nightmare I might dream up that I become the "hero" of the day.

Just saying, keep it in perspective and re-read the OP and not all the knee jerk reactions of the day dreamers.
read the link in the OP




The Post, Houston, TX
In the finest tradition of armed citizens who take on crime in their communities, Texan Travis Neel helped save a wounded Harris County deputy sheriff's life. Witnessing the shooting by one of a trio of Houston gang members after a traffic stop just west of Houston, Neel--who was on his way to his pistol range--pulled his gun and fired, driving the officer's assailants away. An off-duty sheriff's deputy also came on the scene and joined Neel in covering the deputy, whose life was saved by his body armor. The trio was captured after a manhunt.



The Daily Commercial, Leesburg, FL
Vincent McCarthy wasn't afraid to lend a hand when he noticed a police officer struggling with a man and woman at the side of the road. He tried to help subdue the man who was kicking the officer in the face. Despite McCarthy's warnings, when the man pressed his assault, the tour boat captain shot him once in the leg with a pistol he is licensed to carry and stopped the attack. Neither the officer nor McCarthy were seriously injured.



The Observer, Charlotte, NC
A North Myrtle Beach, N.C., citizen was credited by the city's public safety director with possibly saving the life of Police Officer Richard Jernick. Jernick had pulled over a suspected bank robber's car after a chase, when the suspect charged the cruiser and pointed a gun at the officer, who was still behind the wheel. At that point authorities said, the robbery suspect saw that James Beach, a semi-retired electrician who had joined the pursuit, had a pistol pointed at him. Startled, the robber ran for his car, and Officer Jernick was able to shoot and wound him.
 

Spanz

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Do we have to point out that all 3 of those examples are from "free" states, where society AND the aurthorities support concealed carry, and the laws are written accordingly. A DA like Marcia Coakley would never get elected there.
 
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I do not see, anyplace in the OP, anything about someone being "beaten to death". The only thing asked was if the cop was in need of help, did not say what kind of help. no elaboration, just "help". Help like what you may ask, like writing a ticket to an unruly person? Who knows?
This is an invalid argument and you know it. Because everyone here knows that you're not pulling your gun unless it is a situation in which great bodily harm is about to befall someone, and the OP specifically referred to the armed citizen.
 
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