Boghog1
NES Member
So I can't afford a optic yet so I currently have a magpul flip up rear sight, I am wondering if I am better off running a carry handle instead of the magpul or is it 6 of 1 ½dz of the other type of thing.
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AR Sights
- Thread starter Boghog1
- Start date
Carry handle gives you more adjustment options, and is probably a bit more robust. LMT makes a rear sight that is the A2 style like the carry handle, just minus the carry handle part: http://www.botachtactical.com/lmtrebaupirs.html
Personally, I would take either the carry handle or the LMT over the Magpul.
Personally, I would take either the carry handle or the LMT over the Magpul.
What are you using for a front sight?
You plan on banging out 400-500 yards?
Boghog1
NES Member
IMHO the AR is a 300yard platform in 5.56, I know you can hit further and that it is accurate but from a ballistic performance the round is at less than optimum speed by the time you get that far out so no, I don't plan on 4-500 yard shots.
Boghog1
NES Member
Yes and the 5.56 can easily hit out that far, paper and terminal performance are two different things reliable fragmentation out that far doesn't happen, that doesn't mean I would want to be hit by a 5.56 at ranges over 300 yards either, if I had my druthers I would take a .308 out to 600 even though the round is capable of doing 1000yrds he asked how far I planned on shooting and in new england the reality is the AR is suited to <300yrd shots and ideally less than 100 yards shots
Boghog1
NES Member
>2700 fps
Then i would stick to the magpul sights you have or maybe a troy flip up. I don't think a carry handle is going to be a huge benefit.
This. Especially since the OP expressed interest in opticifying his rifle in the future, the mapgul for now and troys later will do fine.
He's talking about reliable tumble/fragmentation of 5.56, which doesn't typically happen below 2700fps. Below 2700fps there's a less than 50/50 chance it will do anything other than poke a clean hole. That's why M193 and M855 are loaded so hot.
That doesn't mean anyone would want to be hit by it, we're just saying there's a proven level if effectiveness. When fragmentation occurs 5.56 is a very deadly round and will dump all its energy. Without fragmentation the wound is far less severe and it will take many more shots to put a person down.
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Ahh, I thought we were talking about shooting targets at the range not going to war. Although a .338 Lapua is going less than 2700 fps by 300 yards too, so I guess that's not effective either.
Boghog1
NES Member
the .338 is not the same round, a 12ga slug doesn't go anywhere near 2700fps and I wouldn't want to get hit by one the MOI is different for different calibers.
.338 Lapua creates a much larger wound channel, as it's a much larger round. It is not comparable to .223 in any way. So either you're an idiot who knows very little about ballistics and terminal performance or you're being rude for no reason. I'm not sure it's necessary to get snarky at people who consider using a rifle for its designed purpose, killing things. Not everyone is concerned with poking holes in paper.
Damn, he got you figured out quick didn't he!
FYI dumbass, no 223 ammo aside from the v-max and similar bullets "fragment" on impact. They tend to tumble....m855 even less so....those just poke holes clean through targets.
I'll make you a deal. Put a watermelon up at 600 yards.....and I'll put a .223 through it. With irons. The you shoot it at 100 yards, and tell me which one would be "balistically superior" .....cause I'm pretty sure if you poke a hole clean through someone, they're probably going to stop.
Threads like pics, so here's one. AR-style rear sight (inc'd 600yd adj ring and 2 apertures) but without the full carry handle. This comes stock with the M&P15-22. Might be a cheap sight upgrade until you go scoped.
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So what you're saying is every person ever shot more than once was overkill?
Notice also I never said it couldn't kill someone, just that it's less likely to.
Oh, and on that fragmentation thing you say doesn't happen:
http://bajaarizona.org/fklr/fklr.html
http://www.ak47.net/forums/t_3_16/391647_PRVI_M193_and_Federal_XM193A_fragmentation_test_in_water__with_pics____UPDATE____07_PRVI_test_added.html
You appear to be completely ignorant of the main reason the military moved to the M855, mk318 and mk262. It was all based on inadequate stopping power at distance. But you're obviously right and the people who spend their lives killing people are wrong. Clearly velocity plays no part in stopping power or wound patterns and anyone shot with a .223 round anywhere on their body will drop dead instantly just like in the movies
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
I'll say that I do love how you HP guys gloat about your mad skills and somehow interject and argument about hitting a target at 600 yards as if it has anything at all to do with what we are discussing here for the OP, which was using irons and ballistics 300 yards and in. If you want to sit around and jerk each other off about hitting watermelons at 600 yards please start your own thread.
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Never said it doesn't fragment..l.but the bullet itself isn't designed to fragment. If they wanted fragmentation, they'd move to an actual hollow point....but alas, damned geneva convention.
Mk855 was designed to penetrate armor and similar. Nothing more. Hence why it's called a "penetrator"' and not a "fragmenter"
Not familiar with mk318 , but mk262 (mod 0 and mod 1) are "long range" variations of standard issue ball ammo. They use a 77 grain open tip HPBT "match" bullet for increased accuracy at distances out to 600 yards. Is nearly identical to the ammo high power shooters use for target work from 200-600yds. They are not more "deadly" due to the open tip....as its not a hollow point. It's because of the way the bullet is formed (from base up, instead of from nose down).
Obviously velocity plays a part...but you shoot someone in the arm with a .338lapua, they aren't gonna die any faster than if you used a 5.56. In fact, the 338 uses the same type of open tip HPBT match bullet that the mk262 uses. Its simply a more accurate bullet, that will perform better (balistically) in changing conditions.
Regardless, number of shots and "stopping power" is a retarded arguement. As with any situation, shot placement > caliber. Not quite sure what you don't understand about that. Short of a howitzer, claiming better stopping power at any distance much past 100 yards is a moot point.
Mk855 was designed to penetrate armor and similar. Nothing more. Hence why it's called a "penetrator"' and not a "fragmenter"
Not familiar with mk318 , but mk262 (mod 0 and mod 1) are "long range" variations of standard issue ball ammo. They use a 77 grain open tip HPBT "match" bullet for increased accuracy at distances out to 600 yards. Is nearly identical to the ammo high power shooters use for target work from 200-600yds. They are not more "deadly" due to the open tip....as its not a hollow point. It's because of the way the bullet is formed (from base up, instead of from nose down).
Obviously velocity plays a part...but you shoot someone in the arm with a .338lapua, they aren't gonna die any faster than if you used a 5.56. In fact, the 338 uses the same type of open tip HPBT match bullet that the mk262 uses. Its simply a more accurate bullet, that will perform better (balistically) in changing conditions.
Regardless, number of shots and "stopping power" is a retarded arguement. As with any situation, shot placement > caliber. Not quite sure what you don't understand about that. Short of a howitzer, claiming better stopping power at any distance much past 100 yards is a moot point.
There is also a rumor floating around that M855 was designed with the front being lighter than the rear to help encourage it to tumble in soft targets. I'm not sure how true that is.
Shot placement is important, but its important to remember that bullets do funny things when they hit soft targets. I've also heard good things here and there about heavier HP .223 rounds at distance, but I really don't have anything to substantiate it.
Mike
Shot placement is important, but its important to remember that bullets do funny things when they hit soft targets. I've also heard good things here and there about heavier HP .223 rounds at distance, but I really don't have anything to substantiate it.
Mike
If you're zeroed at 100 yards, you'll need about 15 minutes of angle to get to 600 yards with mk262/black hills/similar.
Count your clicks. It'll be 30 1/2moa clicks or 60 1/4moa clicks. Most carry handles and BUIS's don't have enough elevation to make it to 600 without turning the front sight down
Crazymjb. Of course it's lighter at the front. The bullet is larger in the rear. Don't really need science to substantiate that. But no. The steel penetrator was added to defeat armor on soft targets. Why do you think our guys wear plates in their body armor. It ain't for comfort, thats for sure
Count your clicks. It'll be 30 1/2moa clicks or 60 1/4moa clicks. Most carry handles and BUIS's don't have enough elevation to make it to 600 without turning the front sight down
Crazymjb. Of course it's lighter at the front. The bullet is larger in the rear. Don't really need science to substantiate that. But no. The steel penetrator was added to defeat armor on soft targets. Why do you think our guys wear plates in their body armor. It ain't for comfort, thats for sure
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Hahahaha, awesome. And I thought we were gonna be team honey badgerf'n hilarious. I just got our name for the Creedmoor Cup team match.
Team Watermelon.
B
And no, I wasn't posting about the OPs need to plink, I was more interested in this tidbit
Originally Posted by vellnueve
The Swiss play at 600 yards with a very similar round.
Yes and the 5.56 can easily hit out that far, paper and terminal performance are two different things reliable fragmentation out that far doesn't happen, that doesn't mean I would want to be hit by a 5.56 at ranges over 300 yards either, if I had my druthers I would take a .308 out to 600 even though the round is capable of doing 1000yrds he asked how far I planned on shooting and in new england the reality is the AR is suited to <300yrd shots and ideally less than 100 yards shots
ARs are well suited to shoot accurately out to distance of 600-800 meters, if you know what you're doing. Apparently, you do not.
And high power is far from my only game. Actually, I tend to do fairly well with pistol (uspsa) and shotgun (trap and skeet) as well. Used to dabble in 3gun too, but blasting a 12" circle at 25yards gets old after a while. I found a niche in HP...noticed that it actually took a fair amount of ability and skill to hit MOA targets are fairly long distances. It wasn't "easy". Not to take anything from uspsa or 3gun...shooting super fast takes its own set of skills, but HP was just significantly more satisfying to me.
As for ballistics under 300 yards? There really aren't any. Even with a significant crosswind, you can easily hit a man sized target at 300yds or less with little to no windage correction....although I suppose you would actually need to have experience shooting at 300'yards to know that. Glad I could teach you that little tidbit. If you have any more questions, feel free to send me a PM
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