Anyone casting .223 for AR-15 ?

[NavelOfficer]

I'll get the die flair them.

You may have one already. If you have a Lee sizer die with the tapered decapper (like in their 7.62x39mm and probably others), you can set the die to the point where it slightly flares the case mouth as needed.
Oftentimes, I use a 50 BMG dummy round to put a flare on the mouth (usually 6.5mm and larger) in a pinch.
You could do similarly to your .223 Rem. with any 30 caliber round with a FMJ bullet (anything that has the desired taper to produce a small flare).
Not perfectly precise, but you will run the near-completed round through a FC die (or similar) which will restore any slight imperfections.

 

[MGnoob]

I like the lyman "M" die to flare the case mouth.
The next thing your going to run into is finding the proper crimp.
Out of a bolt gun, it will be less critical.For an AR you need enough crimp to keep the projectile from setting back into the case while feeding.. but if you crimp too much i think youll find your accuracy will drop off.
Its a fine line between too much and not enough.

What accuracy, at what distance where you hoping/expecting to achieve again?
What alloy did you use? Ive been meaning to try harder stuff but I am cheap.

 

[Mr. Gold]

You may have one already. If you have a Lee sizer die with the tapered decapper (like in their 7.62x39mm and probably others), you can set the die to the point where it slightly flares the case mouth as needed.
Oftentimes, I use a 50 BMG dummy round to put a flare on the mouth (usually 6.5mm and larger) in a pinch.
You could do similarly to your .223 Rem. with any 30 caliber round with a FMJ bullet (anything that has the desired taper to produce a small flare).
Not perfectly precise, but you will run the near-completed round through a FC die (or similar) which will restore any slight imperfections.

It's a good advice and I'll make note of it. I did already place the order on Amazon, it's $15 and it does multiple calibers, so far Lee products did stand up to their promise, and if so it's a good tool to have around.

I like the lyman "M" die to flare the case mouth.
The next thing your going to run into is finding the proper crimp.
Out of a bolt gun, it will be less critical.For an AR you need enough crimp to keep the projectile from setting back into the case while feeding.. but if you crimp too much i think youll find your accuracy will drop off.
Its a fine line between too much and not enough.

What accuracy, at what distance where you hoping/expecting to achieve again?
What alloy did you use? Ive been meaning to try harder stuff but I am cheap.

I'm having trouble with the crimp as it is with the factory bullets, so nothing new there

As far as accuracy, my club does not have any more than a 100 meter range, so for that range, I'm not even taking about grouping, if I can nail 90% of shots onto an A4 paper target from prone position- I'd be satisfied.
I can worry about grouping after that.

 

[NavelOfficer]

I hear you. I can't see very sharply with my 2x scope, even at 50 yards, so I'm happy to see any semblance of a group at 50m and 100m (my maximum range onsite). Actually, any hits on a ten-pin target works for me.
It is a gas to shoot reduced cast loads and hear the Bang! ...Ding! (steel plate) after a slight pause.

Now to find a firearm chambered in .35 Rimington Special...

 

[MGnoob]

They are a ton of fun on steel, i hit a 18×30 steel silhouette @ 230 yards with burst out of my m16..
@100 yards.... trying ...ld like to think my good loads hit a 2" group and maybe 4" with some complete misses with some bad batches..

I think there safer to shoot closer at steel and if your shooting your own personal steel targets they dont damage them even as close as 50"(EDIT...lol, please dont shoot at 50 inches, i meant 50 feet )

EDIT
I had posted photos, but threads so old i forgot i had already.I think i removed the duplicates...edit 2 interesting can figure out how to remove thumbnail.. ohh well i tried

 

[Mr. Gold]

Yes, keep rubbing at in everyone. Why ?

My club does not allow metal targets. At any distance. [sad2] This is F'in depressing.

In advanced marksman back in the army (not the US, just to be clear off fake valor), after shooting at cardboard targets from 100 meters for 3 months.

Then we got the M16A3 20" barrel with Trijicon x4 and started shooting metal targets at 600 meters. The first sound of the "plink" then "plink" w/o the need to run 600 meters to the target to see how you did had me thinking "Oh My, this is F'in genius!!"

Well. Not in my club.

 

[mac1911]

On thing about cast is you should be able to hear the bullet smack the target.
Eager to see how you do.
I have been meaning to do cast loads for the 223 in semi auto for a while. So far I have only loaded 223 with H4895 per Hodgdon reduced load instructions.
As for accuracy cast can be very accurate... my 06 cast loads shoot better out of my 1903a3 than my match bullet loads

 

[NavelOfficer]

Yes, keep rubbing at in everyone. Why ?
My club does not allow metal targets. At any distance. [sad2] This is F'in depressing...

Sorry, didn't mean to be a downer for you.
If in SE CT come shoot steel in my backyard. Nothing fancy, but I do have one plate that's about 1'x3' of about 3/4" thickness. It's used as a backstop primarily.
I have .223 Remington frangibles that can be shoot at about one foot. Personally, I'd suggest 3 feet for 7.62x39mm and about ten feet minimum for .308 Winchester, 7.62x54R, 7.5x55mm, .303 British and .30-06 Spfd. (other debris on the steel plate may come back on you).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh3QAvy1_uo

 

[Mr. Gold]

On thing about cast is you should be able to hear the bullet smack the target.
Eager to see how you do.
I have been meaning to do cast loads for the 223 in semi auto for a while. So far I have only loaded 223 with H4895 per Hodgdon reduced load instructions.
As for accuracy cast can be very accurate... my 06 cast loads shoot better out of my 1903a3 than my match bullet loads

Flaring die arrived yesterday.

I'll be honest. With the current political climate I'm a bit hesitant to take a chance on my upper.
But, with gas checks, speed reduced by about 1/3 of NATO standard - what could go wrong ?

I may pucker up and build another upper from none premium parts - just for this test. Money is kinda tight and promised to myself the only think I'll buy would be something I don't already own - in my case a .308 scoped bolt action.

But living under tyranny does make people do silly things you know..

 

[Mr. Gold]

Sorry, didn't mean to be a downer for you.
If in SE CT come shoot steel in my backyard. Nothing fancy, but I do have one plate that's about 1'x3' of about 3/4" thickness. It's used as a backstop primarily.
I have .223 Remington frangibles that can be shoot at about one foot. Personally, I'd suggest 3 feet for 7.62x39mm and about ten feet minimum for .308 Winchester, 7.62x54R, 7.5x55mm, .303 British and .30-06 Spfd. (other debris on the steel plate may come back on you).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh3QAvy1_uo

Do you have a 400 meter backyard ?

I'm kidding. The fact you can shoot in your own backyard.. I can't even...

 

[NavelOfficer]

Do you have a 400 meter backyard ?

I'm kidding. The fact you can shoot in your own backyard.. I can't even...

No, just 100-meters to be practical. I could get 150 meters, but I doubt the cars going by would appreciate it.
Have you considered making jacketed bullets with lead wire and .22 rimfire cases? After all, that's what RCBS (Rock Chucker Bullet Swaging) was initially all about...

 

[Mr. Gold]

Have you considered making jacketed bullets with lead wire and .22 rimfire cases? After all, that's what RCBS (Rock Chucker Bullet Swaging) was initially all about...

Hmm. did not hear about this. Can you tell more ?

 

[mac1911]

Hmm. did not hear about this. Can you tell more ?

http://www.corbins.com/kit-224.htm

 

[Mr. Gold]

http://www.corbins.com/kit-224.htm

Interesting. Will read more.

I have a few ready. Will probably assemble 50 and see how they fire. It really makes me feel great it's going to be pouring tomorrow.

So, Lyman states this load should be 52.3mm OAL. Looks too short to me. I'm setting them to 53.4-53.6mm OAL, it should be fine. Unless anyone would like to tell me I'm very wrong.

They hand cycle through the chamber and out w/o issue.

Just about 400mg (6.1 grain) of 700X dropped in. Starting load is at 350mg so I'm 13% above starting load and well far of max. load of 500mg (7.7 grain).

 

[Mr. Gold]

Okay. Went to the range today.

Fired 50 shots, iron sights, one A4 (8.5x11 inch) paper target at 91 meters (100 yard). Number of shots that made it in were 10 - 20%. Not optimal.

With stock FMJ I'd say a good total average I get is 65%-75%.

Other consideration/conditions: (These are not excuses, I'm just reporting/keeping log for myself).

1. Being in a rush due to sunset, I did not stop every 5 shots or so to scope at the target and see where I'm hitting, seeing hits were drifting right of the target would have made me correct my shots sooner.

2. Lead fouling: None. Nothing in the gas port, gas tube, gas key. I was planning to take pictures, but I'm sure everyone here knows how a perfectly clean AR 15 gas system looks like.
I already had some 63grain FMJ with me, so I shot it down range just for cleaning (and well, fun), but it wasn't even needed.
Obliviously, I'll know better after 1000 rounds fired.

Using Hodgdon 700x, the current powder charge - 400mg(6.1 grain) did not provide enough back thrust to cycle the bolt. I will get close to the maximum charge in the next set, 500mg (7.7grain).

At this point it's good enough in order to prepare 100 rounds for the next test fire, and a good hour in good light for the next run.

 

[mac1911]

Okay. Went to the range today.

Fired 50 shots, iron sights, one A4 (8.5x11 inch) paper target at 91 meters (100 yard). Number of shots that made it in were 10 - 20%. Not optimal.

With stock FMJ I'd say a good total average I get is 65%-75%.

Other consideration/conditions: (These are not excuses, I'm just reporting/keeping log for myself).

1. Being in a rush due to sunset, I did not stop every 5 shots or so to scope at the target and see where I'm hitting, seeing hits were drifting right of the target would have made me correct my shots sooner.

2. Lead fouling: None. Nothing in the gas port, gas tube, gas key. I was planning to take pictures, but I'm sure everyone here knows how a perfectly clean AR 15 gas system looks like.
I already had some 63grain FMJ with me, so I shot it down range just for cleaning (and well, fun), but it wasn't even needed.
Obliviously, I'll know better after 1000 rounds fired.

Using Hodgdon 700x, the current powder charge - 400mg(6.1 grain) did not provide enough back thrust to cycle the bolt. I will get close to the maximum charge in the next set, 500mg (7.7grain).

At this point it's good enough in order to prepare 100 rounds for the next test fire, and a good hour in good light for the next run.

You can use H4895 in reduced loads per Hodgdon web site... I can't copy and past the link for whatever reason at the moment
I did not take good notes but IIRC my H4895 reduced loads cycled my 16" carbine gas system into the mid teens with 55fmj

Lead fouling should be held to a minimum with the correct lube.
I shot 125 rounds of 30-06 through my M1 with cast using range scrap
Gas checked and tumble lubed running them at 38 grains of H4895 cycled and shot darn well... I was keeping them in the black of a SR 1 target

 

[NavelOfficer]

I don't have any clue as to what pressures are generated with pistol powders, but I suspect the maximum limit is more a limit on velocity. I could be way off here, but if you push a plain-base cast bullet too fast, it will be all over the place; hence, no need to push them any faster.
FWIW, the maximum loads with Clays and Trail Boss listed for .223 Remington and .308 Winchester are well below pressure limits for these respective calibers.
Although the load escapes me now, I had shot some 170gr GCSil coated bullets in a Remington Woodsmater .308 (Model 742...?) with Lil' Gun and they cycled just fine. Ditto with my Hakim (27.0g under a 196g FMJ).
With some further testing, I'm sure you'll find a functioning .223 load, if you're determined to do it.

There are those that make .40 caliber JHPs out of spent 9mm brass. I have used .30 Carbine for .357 Magnum and 5.7x28 for 7.62x54R...

 

[Mr. Gold]

Being that I'm using gas checked bullets, I will certainly get closer to the max load.

If I don't find any source against it I may exceed the load, too. For now, I'm good to load 100 more using the max load per Lyman's, for this cartridge and bullet weight.

 

[mac1911]

Being that I'm using gas checked bullets, I will certainly get closer to the max load.

If I don't find any source against it I may exceed the load, too. For now, I'm good to load 100 more using the max load per Lyman's, for this cartridge and bullet weight.

Don't take this as technical data or science. I can only relay some info from a club member who did lots of ammunition and ballistic testing at Aberdeen.
He says 223 with a 45,000 CUP will be about 50,000psi so your pressures will be getting up to max as you push the pistol powders. The lack of gas volume might prevent full 100% function.
I called a friend who's been playing with cast loads and he's using Rx7 and pushing 2200fps functions at about 80% although accuracy is not as good as his 2400 loads which do not cycle the bolt completely...

 

[MGnoob]

Without tuning the gun for reduced loads, i found most of mine to start function 100% of the time anywhere from 2k fps up. It does completely depend on your setup, what powder and load your using and an adjustable gasblock sure helps

IMO, pistol powder really isn't great for semi auto function and in a gas gun with gas rings it will rapidly degrade them.. not a huge deal just got to change them often.

I will say ive made unique cycle an ar...but i dont recommend anyone repeat this test.

I was ging to post earlier that the OP is better off using rifle powder... i think his issue will be he'll be below min. Load data and it will most likely be a dirty load to achieve any kind of accuracy.. aim for 2500 fps and you might be better off coating them than lubing them.

 

[mac1911]

Without tuning the gun for reduced loads, i found most of mine to start function 100% of the time anywhere from 2k fps up. It does completely depend on your setup, what powder and load your using and an adjustable gasblock sure helps

IMO, pistol powder really isn't great for semi auto function and in a gas gun with gas rings it will rapidly degrade them.. not a huge deal just got to change them often.

I will say ive made unique cycle an ar...but i dont recommend anyone repeat this test.

I was ging to post earlier that the OP is better off using rifle powder... i think his issue will be he'll be below min. Load data and it will most likely be a dirty load to achieve any kind of accuracy.. aim for 2500 fps and you might be better off coating them than lubing them.

I would try H4895 , I ran 18 grains with H4895 with 55FMJ and think cast would do well also.
IIRC I think I was right at 2250ish FPS....
I have been working on cast loads for all my rifles and planing on 223 but right now I have 2 other cast loads I want to tool up for.

I'm,running cast loads in one of my garands and she cycles on 37 grains
Accuracy is better than HXP. No crony data yet.

 

[MGnoob]

Mr. gold really has alot of options. When i first started getting into this kind of thing component availiblity was none existent. I resorted to alot of poor practices, like using any powder i could get my hands on and interchanging SP primers with SR primers and vis versa.

If i where to do it again id like to give vagrant or vihtavuori perhaps ARcomp a try .. im curious if i would do better with these powders, but price and availability vary and for less than MOA stuff its probibly a waste of money..reloader15 might be a middle ground...it would also depend how mr gold reloads..
I am a huge fan of ball powders and anything that cant be double tripple charged for saftey reasons.

On a side note.. i can't wait to start casting and reloading for .308 i feel like it will be a walk in the park compared to this .223 stuff. I can only assume the slower volocity when compared to .223 will make higher accuracy more consistantly achievable ...but then again i don't shoot very far and moa isnt really required in a beltfed....LOL. but ill still like to tinker and achieve the best results i can.

 

[Mr. Gold]

Reloaded the next round:

This time with the max allowed by Lyman, 500mg (7.7grain) of Hodgdon 700X (by volume for this powder it's 0.9cc if anyone cares).

39,400 CUP at this point.
633m/s (2080fps).
Not very fast.

I'm playing with the idea (if this one does not preform well), to increase the load by 5% and stop there.

Of course if any lead fouling should appear, the increase is out of the question until alloy composition is reviewed.
We'll see.

 

[mac1911]

Have you been following any of the cast loads in AR 15s threads over on cast boolits.com?

 

[Mr. Gold]

Have you been following any of the cast loads in AR 15s threads over on cast boolits.com?

When I started preparing for this load - yes. Now - Not persistently. Mostly sticking to Lyman's book and information gathered from here, there..

may I ask why ?

 

[Mr. Gold]

Okay, had time to go and shoot them today.

Results are much better. On my own scale (Iron sights, 100 yards at A4 paper size target, how many shots make it in or close), I'd say I'm in the % area of FMJ (65% in) now. Maybe 7% off.

No fouling visible beside some residue on the muzzle brake - not a big deal.

I need to Brinnel test the cast bullets, for many important reasons.

For the next batch I will go above the 500mg(7.7grain) mark, I'm not sure by how much yet, worry not - not too much.

The bolt did not cycle - as expected (although I did secretly hope..)


Pictures part:

Could not ask for a nicer evening:

The good hits:

The not so good hits:

Even hit the clay (it took a few tries though )

Brake:

Port:

Chamber&Tube

 

[mac1911]

Okay, had time to go and shoot them today.

Results are much better. On my own scale (Iron sights, 100 yards at A4 paper size target, how many shots make it in or close), I'd say I'm in the % area of FMJ (65% in) now. Maybe 7% off.

No fouling visible beside some residue on the muzzle brake - not a big deal.

I need to Brinnel test the cast bullets, for many important reasons.

For the next batch I will go above the 500mg(7.7grain) mark, I'm not sure by how much yet, worry not - not too much.

The bolt did not cycle - as expected (although I did secretly hope..)


Pictures part:

Could not ask for a nicer evening:

The good hits:

The not so good hits:

Even hit the clay (it took a few tries though )

Brake:

Port:

Chamber&Tube

It's a start. I didn't try to many pistol powders for my reduced loads but non successfully cycled the bolt.
H4895 did though.

Only other consideration maybe barrel twist is playing on your accuracy.
55gn cast in a fast twist might not be helping.
What I have learned so far is a slowest twist that stabilizes the bullet is all that is needed.
I might order the 22 mold today along with some gas checks.... I'm curious what I can get out of my milspec A2

Note: when I first started with cast it was with a Mosin 762x54r
I was having lots of issues. The old timer who helped me often kept at me. "Did you get all the copper out of the barrel" I kept saying yes.
Now I did clean the barrel but did I really get all the copper out...
Well no because when I finally decided to get that bore clean I used 762 sweets. Nasty stuff but my God did it get some Nast stuff out. I then later cleaned the bore with electrolysis set up....now after my bore was clean it took about 40 shots for the barrel to season. My Morin now will shoot my gallery loads to 2" @ 50 yards and when I ran out of powder I was getting 4-5MOA with my 200 yard load.... there's a lot to consider
When casting for the unconventional.

Also have you slugged your barrel? What are you cast boolits measuring?

I'm,considering this mold
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/produc...ducts_id=88&osCsid=si9fepne1fkfg3pggjs5i9vvs0

 

[Mr. Gold]

It's a start. I didn't try to many pistol powders for my reduced loads but non successfully cycled the bolt.
H4895 did though.

Only other consideration maybe barrel twist is playing on your accuracy.
55gn cast in a fast twist might not be helping.
What I have learned so far is a slowest twist that stabilizes the bullet is all that is needed.
I might order the 22 mold today along with some gas checks.... I'm curious what I can get out of my milspec A2

Note: when I first started with cast it was with a Mosin 762x54r
I was having lots of issues. The old timer who helped me often kept at me. "Did you get all the copper out of the barrel" I kept saying yes.
Now I did clean the barrel but did I really get all the copper out...
Well no because when I finally decided to get that bore clean I used 762 sweets. Nasty stuff but my God did it get some Nast stuff out. I then later cleaned the bore with electrolysis set up....now after my bore was clean it took about 40 shots for the barrel to season. My Morin now will shoot my gallery loads to 2" @ 50 yards and when I ran out of powder I was getting 4-5MOA with my 200 yard load.... there's a lot to consider
When casting for the unconventional.

Also have you slugged your barrel? What are you cast boolits measuring?

I'm,considering this mold
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/produc...ducts_id=88&osCsid=si9fepne1fkfg3pggjs5i9vvs0

As far as accuracy in concerned, I'm all set- considering the goal.

I'm saying that- because I take it that accuracy from this point on is a function of casting perfectly looking bullits and upping the powder charge.

The variables I'll be playing with are: Bullet appearance, Bullet hardness and velocity. The latter two - I need to purchase hardware for.

I haven't slugged the barrel, honestly I did not see a complete need to. The fact it's chambered for 5.56x45mm by a reputable manufacturer gave the information I needed.


As for twist, I'm using a Stag Model 2 upper - it's a 1:9".
55 grain bullits are not a misfit. May not be the best fit - but certainly in the "acceptable" weight class.


Bullit size, out of the mold:

14.47mm long (.569")
5.37mm in diameter (.211")
3.6 grams by weight (55.5 grain)

After adding the gas check, the widest point of the bullit is the base, which goes up to 5.46mm (.214")
------------------------------------------

You're going for the 2 cav mold huh ? All I can say is: 70 pours yielded 420 bullits with the 6 cav mold.
But yes, if I was going for perfection I'd go with the two. In my situation, quantity bests quality. (As long as the quality does not suck).

 

[NavelOfficer]

Bullit size, out of the mold:

14.47mm long (.569")
5.37mm in diameter (.211")
3.6 grams by weight (55.5 grain)

After adding the gas check, the widest point of the bullit is the base, which goes up to 5.46mm (.214")

Are you sure about that diameter?
A .223 Remington bullet should be more like .224" diameter, no (cast or jacketed)?
Check your zero on your micrometer/calipers...

 

[Mr. Gold]

Are you sure about that diameter?
A .223 Remington bullet should be more like .224" diameter, no (cast or jacketed)?
Check your zero on your micrometer/calipers...

I measured other items I know the length/width of. They measured as I expected.

For example the 62 Grain FMJ-BT I have did measure 5.68mm(.224"), as expected.