another transport question regarding multpile weapons and owners

[chiefsaj]

I've looked and not found annswer to this one.
My friends and I are going to the range. My gun is being transported within the limits of the law (I believe, anyway) unloaded and locked in a case, since we are in a truck with no trunk.

Theirs are not, just loose in a bag, my bag as a matter of fact, which maybe another problem now that I think about it.

As the driver, am I liable for their weapons? Or is each individual responsible for their respective weapon?

 

[MACGYVR]

just lock them in a case for gods sake

should not even be asking this question.
it is the law in mass. How hard is it? Gonna risk your ltc and jail because your friends wont spring $20 for a locked case?

Some people just amaze me.

Of course if you live in NH, then you are all fine and i retract my comments.

 

[M1911]

I've looked and not found annswer to this one.
My friends and I are going to the range. My gun is being transported within the limits of the law (I believe, anyway) unloaded and locked in a case, since we are in a truck with no trunk.

Theirs are not, just loose in a bag, my bag as a matter of fact, which maybe another problem now that I think about it.

As the driver, am I liable for their weapons? Or is each individual responsible for their respective weapon?

I am assuming that you are in MA.

It would not surprise me if everyone in the vehicle was arrested in that sort of situation -- arrest them all and let the DA sort it out. You know that what your friends are doing is illegal. While the law is BS, why would you want to be a party to that? It just isn't worth the risk. Tell your buddy that he can get a gun case or he can walk.

 

[Titan]

Why on earth would you comply with the law by locking up your own gun(s) and then expose yourself to legal jeopardy anyway, because of the actions of 'friends'?

 

[chiefsaj]

You guys are too much, nice friendly forum, simply a question. Obviously, I'm asking the question because I was uncomfortable with it but it seemed a little gray with ownership and the whole direct control debate, it just happened yesterday and I'm looking into it. It was more of a legal question that a request for opinions.

1911, thanks for the civil reply.

 

[MACGYVR]

There is no grey area in the law on this. Direct control is on your person. Otherwise lock it up.

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

You guys are too much, nice friendly forum, simply a question. Obviously, I'm asking the question because I was uncomfortable with it but it seemed a little gray with ownership and the whole direct control debate, it just happened yesterday and I'm looking into it. It was more of a legal question that a request for opinions.

1911, thanks for the civil reply.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Legally, all of you would be in jeopardy. I would expect the driver (especially if he supplied the non-compliant bag) to be held to a higher level of scrutiny than the actual gun owners.

Locked per MGL is the only way to go. Can be a soft case/bag, as long as it is locked and out of reach of driver/passengers (as much as possible in the given vehicle).

 

[Titan]

You guys are too much, nice friendly forum, simply a question. Obviously, I'm asking the question because I was uncomfortable with it but it seemed a little gray with ownership and the whole direct control debate, it just happened yesterday and I'm looking into it. It was more of a legal question that a request for opinions.

1911, thanks for the civil reply.

It would be great if we didn't have a storage law, but since we do, it's you obligation as a gun owner to know what it requires.

If you don't like the tone of some of the responses, it might be because this isn't the first thread where a question was asked about something for which the answers were obvious.

Under what circumstance did you think it might be okay to transport some rifles that weren't legally stored? Did you imagine that the driver (who owned the bags they were in) would escape liability? Really?

 

[chiefsaj]

As I was afraid, thanks Len. Frankly, I didnt even know they put them in my bag until we arrived, much to my shagrin. We debated, rather heatedly as to the legalities. I'm often accused of being paranoid and over cautious about most things in life, for that reason I was treading lightly with my friends without definitive proof.

End of story, i was right and I get it, thanks guys.

PS Macgyver I agree with you, as I tend to error on the side of caution. However, based on my reading many threads debating the isuue and as yopu quoted :

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

It doesnt specifically state what direct control is. Again, I understand in a holster, on my hip satisfies all. But that is not stated.

 

[M1911]

It doesnt specifically state what direct control is. Again, I understand in a holster, on my hip satisfies all. But that is not stated.

Unfortunately, "direct control" is not defined in that statute (or in the definitions section, MGL chapter 140 Section 121 either). Furthermore, case law isn't very clear on the definition of "direct control" either. Certainly on your hip is direct control, but beyond that is anybodies guess.

 

[MisterHappy]

IANAL, but the "direct control" issue is part of the wonderful obscurity of the Mass laws.

IIRC, if you have a gunin your glove compartment, that's not under your direct control; if you have weed in your glove compartment, it IS under your direct control.....

A while back in Framingham, a car was pulled over and searched. There was a handgun found in a "concealed" compartment in the car (possibly the console, but the paper was not overly specific) and all occupants were arrested on "unlicensed posession" charges.....

YMMV, but the Word of the Day is CYA!

 

[jdubois]

I think the question is really one of constructive possession. Did you have both knowledge of and intent to control those firearms? If so, you were in possession of them. Their plain visibility makes it undeniable that you had knowledge of them. But you could argue that because those guns were the property of, and in the vicinity and control of, the other passengers in the car, you clearly did not have intent to control them, and so you were not in possession of them.

But I share the sentiment of the above posters. I just simply wouldn't want to be involved in such a situation. Anybody not following firearm laws (as stupid as some of them are) would not be allowed in my car.

A couple of interesting cases on the matter:

COMMONWEALTH vs. JOSHUA COTTO, 2007
(Marijuana stop. Passenger claimed he did not have possession of the handgun that was under the seat in front of him. Trooper saw him fiddling with his foot under the seat. He lost the case)

COMMONWEALTH vs. SOLOMON BROWN, 1988
(Stolen vehicle. Driver claimed he did not have knowledge of the handguns under the passenger's seat, and that the passenger had possession of them. He won the case)

 

[yanici]

I believe it needs to be a large capacity rifle or shotgun that needs a locked case.

 

[M1911]

I believe it needs to be a large capacity rifle or shotgun that needs a locked case.

And handguns carried on a class B (handguns carried on a class A is unclear to me). Non-large capacity long guns do not need to be locked up. But I would never expect your average police officer (or even an ADA) to understand that subtlety of the law. Nor would I want to get into a legal battle about whether a particular long gun was large or non-large capacity. It just isn't worth it.

 

[chiefsaj]

If you don't like the tone of some of the responses, it might be because this isn't the first thread where a question was asked about something for which the answers were obvious.
None of the countless threads I researched addressed multiple weapons with multiple licenses, hence the question.

it's you obligation as a gun owner to know what it requires.

And that's what I'm trying to do here with the folks who are interested in helping, not slamming.

JDUBOIS and Len and 1911, thanks.

For the record, they were handguns, not long guns.

 

[M1911]

For the record, they were handguns, not long guns.

Unfortunately, that section of the law is one of the most poorly written sections of the law. Here is the law in question. Note that the word "firearm" effectively means a handgun in this section:

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

So if you are carrying a loaded handgun, it must be under your direct control. But what if you have a Class A and are transporting an unloaded handgun that is not under your direct control? Does it need to be locked up? Paragraph (b) seems to me to imply that, but others disagree.

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

If they have a class B, then the handguns MUST be locked up. That's clear.

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

Large capacity long guns must be locked up. Non-large capacity long guns don't need to be locked up, but as I said above, I would not count on your average police officer to know this or to reliably recognize the difference between large capacity and non-large capacity.

My recommendation is to take the most conservative approach -- if it isn't on your person, then put it in a locked case or locked trunk. Note that while trigger locks are suitable for storage, they do not meet the statute for transport.

Full text of the statute is here: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131c

 

[MACGYVR]

CYA is the law of the land in Mass.

What the law says, means, does is irrelevant.

The fact is you are in living in a prison state. You do everything possible to make it look like you are trying to comply with laws known and unknown.
Even going above an beyond the requirements of the law.

check, double check before transporting any firearms, ammunition etc

 

[tigersplint]

And handguns carried on a class B (handguns carried on a class A is unclear to me). Non-large capacity long guns do not need to be locked up. But I would never expect your average police officer (or even an ADA) to understand that subtlety of the law. Nor would I want to get into a legal battle about whether a particular long gun was large or non-large capacity. It just isn't worth it.

You are correct, arguing with the arresting officer on the side of the road is not the proper forum. If you undoubtedly know you are following the law with a non-large capacity rifle or shotgun, comply, then consult an attourney.

 

[tigersplint]

check, double check before transporting any firearms, ammunition etc

why would you need to lock up ammo?

 

[M1911]

why would you need to lock up ammo?

I am not aware of any statute in MA that requires you to lock up your ammo while transporting it.

 

[MACGYVR]

why would you need to lock up ammo?

I never said that. You are putting words in my mouth.

Nothing in that post says anything about locks.

It is about complying with the laws and going an extra step if needed to CYA.


Just make sure everything is properly packed and accounted for. Thats all I am saying.

 

[terraformer]

I think the question is really one of constructive possession. Did you have both knowledge of and intent to control those firearms? If so, you were in possession of them. Their plain visibility makes it undeniable that you had knowledge of them. But you could argue that because those guns were the property of, and in the vicinity and control of, the other passengers in the car, you clearly did not have intent to control them, and so you were not in possession of them.

But I share the sentiment of the above posters. I just simply wouldn't want to be involved in such a situation. Anybody not following firearm laws (as stupid as some of them are) would not be allowed in my car.

A couple of interesting cases on the matter:

COMMONWEALTH vs. JOSHUA COTTO, 2007
(Marijuana stop. Passenger claimed he did not have possession of the handgun that was under the seat in front of him. Trooper saw him fiddling with his foot under the seat. He lost the case)

COMMONWEALTH vs. SOLOMON BROWN, 1988
(Stolen vehicle. Driver claimed he did not have knowledge of the handguns under the passenger's seat, and that the passenger had possession of them. He won the case)

FYI: Mass has a constructive possession statute. It has been used in district court cases to squeeze innocent drivers for all sorts of things. It could be used here.

And Macgyver, why don't you take it elsewhere...

 

[MACGYVR]

And Macgyver, why don't you take it elsewhere...

You can take it elsewhere.
The thread was addressing his circumstance. Not the legal mumbo jumbo and case law. I quoted the MGL to show their was no gray area in his circumstance.

Keeping the law off your ass involves common sense.

Case law arguments only apply when you have been arrested and are standing trial and trying to dig yourself out of prison time.

 

[jdubois]

FYI: Mass has a constructive possession statute. It has been used in district court cases to squeeze innocent drivers for all sorts of things. It could be used here.

Are you talking about C 278 § 9? Yes, it exists, but to convict based on it you still must meet the common law definition of constructive possession, that one has not only knowledge of but also ability and intention to exercise dominion and control over the property. This is what I was discussing when I mentioned he'd have to either show he didn't have knowledge (impossible) or didn't have control (more plausible).

 

[jdubois]

And Macgyver, why don't you take it elsewhere...

You can take it elsewhere.

This thread is an interesting topic. Let's not ruin it...

 

[terraformer]

Are you talking about C 278 § 9? Yes, it exists, but to convict based on it you still must meet the common law definition of constructive possession, that one has not only knowledge of but also ability and intention to exercise dominion and control over the property. This is what I was discussing when I mentioned he'd have to either show he didn't have knowledge (impossible) or didn't have control (more plausible).

Yes, that's the one. Anything in the passenger compartment is going to fall inside it. In new bedford a conviction was had on two people in the front two seats where the property was in the back. It's too easy to gain convictions on this that I would not play around. Though if anyone with an unrestricted license gets a transport charge, call comm2A.

 

[tigersplint]

I never said that. You are putting words in my mouth.

Nothing in that post says anything about locks.

It is about complying with the laws and going an extra step if needed to CYA.


Just make sure everything is properly packed and accounted for. Thats all I am saying.

Ok, note taken, with that being said,

Storage laws for ammo in a vehicle differ from storage laws in your house. There is no transportation law on the books that requires ammo to be in a locked secured container, otherwise everytime you bought ammo from a dealer they would have to issue you a secure locked container. Just something that you don't need to go an extra step for.

 

[tigersplint]

Unfortunately, that section of the law is one of the most poorly written sections of the law. Here is the law in question. Note that the word "firearm" effectively means a handgun in this section:


So if you are carrying a loaded handgun, it must be under your direct control. But what if you have a Class A and are transporting an unloaded handgun that is not under your direct control? Does it need to be locked up? Paragraph (b) seems to me to imply that, but others disagree.


If they have a class B, then the handguns MUST be locked up. That's clear.


Large capacity long guns must be locked up. Non-large capacity long guns don't need to be locked up, but as I said above, I would not count on your average police officer to know this or to reliably recognize the difference between large capacity and non-large capacity.

My recommendation is to take the most conservative approach -- if it isn't on your person, then put it in a locked case or locked trunk. Note that while trigger locks are suitable for storage, they do not meet the statute for transport.

Full text of the statute is here: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131c

Check out section B. Does that not cover both Large and non-large capacity? In regards to being stored or kept by owner. And wouldn't a locked trunk be a stored container? And then "under control of" comes into question, not direct control.


Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

(b) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a firearm, rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon, by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000 or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and in the case of a large capacity weapon or machine gun, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131l

 

[M1911]

Check out section B. Does that not cover both Large and non-large capacity?

I'm not sure what you are asking. Paragraph (b) of MGL Chapter 140 Section 131c reads:

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

Note that the word "firearm" in this paragraph effectively means "handgun." This paragraph does not cover rifles or shotguns. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 121 which contains the definition of the word "firearm":

“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

In regards to being stored or kept by owner. And wouldn't a locked trunk be a stored container?

Again, you've lost me. I don't know what you are asking.

 

[tigersplint]

I'm not sure what you are asking. Paragraph (b) of MGL Chapter 140 Section 131c reads:



Note that the word "firearm" in this paragraph effectively means "handgun." This paragraph does not cover rifles or shotguns. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 121 which contains the definition of the word "firearm":



http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121


Again, you've lost me. I don't know what you are asking.

My apologies if that was not clear. It was directed to the MGL that was in my post. Section 131L(b.)

(b) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a firearm, rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon, by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000 or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and in the case of a large capacity weapon or machine gun, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment