Ammo thru the internet to MA??

[MidKnight]

Once again I'm going to ask all of you here a pretty newbie question.

Can I order ammo thru the internet to my apartment in MA?? What's involved in doing so? I've heard many people say that they can't, and some say that they have found a site or two that will.

I live in Quincy and I have to travel to Four Seasons, the Walmart in Danvers, or Dicks in North Attleboro if I want to buy ammo. It's crazy. Can't find any place closer! I only want .22 and 9mm (perhaps 8mm mauser when that finally makes its way back to me from relatives).

Please let me know how all of you get your ammo... thru the internet or any local offerings that I might be interested in. Thanks!!!

 

[Len-2A Training]

NO PUBLIC REPLIES LISTING INTERNET SELLERS ALLOWED!
USE PM OR EMAIL ONLY, AND ONLY TO PEOPLE YOU KNOW.

Please refer to "Search" button above. We've discussed this numerous times, even in past week.

Bottom line is that the AG does NOT want anyone selling into MA (it is NOT illegal if they request a copy of your LTC and DL), he has setup "sting operations" and found sloppy sellers who didn't request anything more than a credit card number and mailing address. He threatened them with lawsuits and most out of state dealers refuse to do business with MA residents for fear of the AG. The AG/CHSB folks do lurk in forums/eLists to glean info they can use to shut down dealers who will sell into MA, thus the admonition above (we don't want to burn the few folks that will work with us).

If you have LTC, it is NOT illegal for you to mail-order ammo. It is just exceedingly difficult to find dealers who will do business with you.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

MA Ammo Sales

The legal question with MA ammo sales is "where does the sale occur"? Under the FOB concept, the sale takes place at the address of the vendor and is concluded when the package is dropped off with a common carrier.

The AG is taking a different view, and concluding that the sale to a MA individual is actually taking place in the state of Massachusetts. Although this logic may or may not be legally sound, the seller is left with one of three choices: Pay the requested $5,000 settlement; prepare for trial; or ignore it and face the consequences of a default judgement. As a result, most vendors conclude that the risk/benefit of pursing MA sales just isn't worth it. I've even seen vendors that allow split billing/shipment addresses, but will refuse any sale if either address is in MA.

If the law concludes that the sale has taken place in MA, the seller is required to hold a "MA License to Sell Ammunition", and it is a violation to sell ammunition without such a license even if the recipient holds a MA LTC (assuming he does not also have an ammunition sales license, as I believe the law allows such sellers to buy from entities without such a license - otherwise, only MA manufactured ammo would be available).

If anyone has VERIFIABLE information that , assuming the law finds a mail orer sale took place in MA, it is legal to sell to someone with an LTC but without a "License to Sell Ammunition", please let me know. I am currently doing a consulting project for a ammunition manufacturer (bullets and loaded ammo) which is also a distributor for a name brand ammo line, and I will be glad to bring VERIFIABLE information to their attention. Sorry, "assertions" don't cut it. I am not a lawyer and cannot give them legal advice, but I could refer them to an authorative information source.

In the meantime, I've been having my evaluation samples of new products in development sent to a full service MA firearms dealer who checks my LTC and then transfers them to me.

 

[MidKnight]

Wow. Thanks for all that information. And sorry about the 'search' thing. My searching skills still suck on forums. I'll make a better go if it again before starting another newbie thread. My fault.

Now I have a new question: why is the AG so against MA residents buying ammo off of the web?

Bottom line is that the AG does NOT want anyone selling into MA

I can get if they are selling illegally (by not asking for LTC), but it sounds like he's just out to stop all ammo sales into the state. Has he explained his mentality on this issue?

Also, can I buy ammo out of state and transport it in state or is that against the law too? (I have a LTC-A).

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Ammo

Back in the days of "literacy tests", "poll taxes" and "grandfather clauses" to decide who could vote, givernment officials could offer a plausible explaination for each of these laws, however, the only underlying theory which coherently and consistently described each of those activities as part of a larger picture was the desire to prevent blacks from voting.

The AG's actions on ammo sales; safe handguns; etc. may be similarly explained as part of a larger picture. There is a plausible rationale for each action when examined in isolation, however, the only operational theory which knits it all together with a single, concise, explaination is the desire to reduce or eleminate civilian firearms posession.

 

[FPrice]

Has he explained his mentality on this issue?

This is a case where actions speak louder than words. To answer the question directly, NO. I do not believe he has explained his mentality. (I'm not sure if anyone has been able to ask the question directly). But the actions of the AG's office over the past few years has been to make private ownership of firearms in the Commonwealth as onerous and as difficult as possible, From raising the fee for firearms licenses to restricting the types of handguns available through the AG's "consumer protection" guidelines to going after out-of-state vendors with questionable tactics and interference with interstate commerce he has attacked the honest citizens of the Commonwealth.

The bottom line seems to be that he does not trust you or any of the rest of us "commoners" with firearms. Too often those who are "connected" seem get a pass, but the ordinary citizen is penalized.

 

[jacobtowne]

Well, I'd surely welcome a PM from anyone who knows of out-of-state vendors willing to ship to an LTC 03FFL.
JT

 

[Len-2A Training]

Rob, a serious question . . . How do you get a job like that? I'd love to be able to make money on my ability/desire to research tough questions and get answers for folks!

MidKnight, it is perfectly legal for you to buy ammo out of state and transport it back here, as long as you have your LTC.

If the AG's issue was really the sloppy dealers who request no proof that someone can own ammo, he could have addressed his sting operation to ONLY THAT and made it clear in his consent decrees that all sales MUST request the LTC copy. Instead he took the "no sales to MA" approach. I was told by GOAL (Nancy, when this first went down) that the AG's "opinion" was that NO SALES could be made into MA . . . not to individuals, not to dealers, not to distributors, not to Police Departments! However, the AG (wisely) chose only to screw the small folks. If he ever prohibited the PDs from getting ammo (requiring the PD to send an officer out of state while on duty to pickup ammo), his political career would be over in less than a heartbeat . . . and he knew it!

 

[Len-2A Training]

A couple of generic responses that I will share here:

- With the current price of fuel, expect S/H charges to start increasing at a rate where your order no longer saves you money buying mail-order! All the carriers (except USPS and ammo can't be shipped via USPS) have "fuel surcharge" clauses that allow them to slide these charges up as they determine a need and this will be happening all over the place!

- I have found when I want some ammo, talking to Carl at Four Seasons, I have gotten deals that are very competitive to ordering mail-order (when S/H costs get weighed in). I have also got some good deals on Korean M1 Carbine ammo at Collectors in Stoneham.

- So, I honestly haven't ordered any ammo mail-order in probably 3-4 years.

- The major mail-order places you sent your C&R FFL to may publicly state "no MA sales" but you can try talking with a Supervisor and see if they will accept your LTC and DL copies along with your C&R FFL as acceptable for an "exception" to their published policy. Some may do this for you, at least I have had a few tell me that they will do so, because it DOES meet MGLs for ammo purchases. Ditto for hi-cap pre-ban mags.

 

[Moderator]

Len,

Not to challenge your wisdom, but do you think in your opinion that the price of ammo at our favorite gun stores will go up as well. I mean even if they have a distributor that brings it directly to them there is a use of fuel.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'm sure that FS and every other shop will be paying more for ammo, guns and everything else that they/we buy!

That said, when you buy many pallets of product at one time, the charge/unit is a lot lower than when you or I buy 1K of ammo shipped to us.

For a long time now, many online/catalog dealers make their real profit margin on S/H! Many have been charging outrageous rates to ship. When real costs go up, watch out!

- Botach charged me $10 to ship 1# package of 123 batteries a year or so ago. They called me and told me that my battery order was "very heavy". I had no yard-stick to determine that this was pure BS until I got my order and looked at the shipping label (1#)! When I complained after the fact, they ignored me and never responded.

- I ordered ~$300 of various items from CDT ~5 years ago. Part of the order was 10 .50 cal empty ammo cans. After I placed the order they called me and told me that the ammo cans were "very heavy" and whacked me with a $40 Surcharge (S/H)! Turned out that the "good price" on ammo cans ended up costing me more than buying them locally. Had I known upfront I would not have ordered them from CDT.

 

[KMaurer]

One of the things that's interesting about the AG's position on ammunition sales (from a legal viewpoint, not from the viewpoint of a shooter) is that several years back another AG tried pushing a similar interpretation/distortion of the law nad ran into somebody who was willing to fight back. I don't recall who the AG was (it might have been Scott Harshbarger) but he and the DoR decided that Cumo's should have collected and forwarded sales tax for all the appliances they sold to Massachusetts residents in the Salem, NH store. Since Cuomo's did enough business to make the fight worth it, they refused, claiming that they had no business nexus in MA. The AG argued that, becuase they delivered the appliances to customers' homes in MA that they had such a nexus. Cuomo claimed that they didn't deliver, but that a legally separate business entity (Cumo's Appliance Delivery?) did. In the end the SJC agreed with Cuomo's that there was no business nexus in MA. The only difference here is (1) that the sales are done via the internet, and more importantly (2) there's never enough sales volume involved to make it worth while for an individual seller to take the issue to court. There's also the seeming bias of Massachusetts courts against anything involving guns.

Ken

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Rob, a serious question . . . How do you get a job like that? I'd love to be able to make money on my ability/desire to research tough questions and get answers for folks!

Len - I'll be glad to fill you in on all the specifics when the project is done, but this is one I'm doing for free. I was so appreciative of the absolutely wonderful response I got from this company when I asked them to add a set of new products to their offerings as part of a "drop ship ammo to major USPSA matches" program I am working on that I agreed to do their on-line commerce system as a thank-you. They've offered to compensate me, but I'm a director of USPSA so I won't accept compensation while I am also representing USPSA in a business deal.

But, the short answer to your question is:

1. Find a gun or gun related company which needs your services

2. Offer to work for merchandise

3. Offer an unconditional "pay me nothing unless you like what you get" guarantee.

4. Deal only with people who value their reputation as much as you value yours.

5. Do it for fun, because if you work out the effective hourly rate - even if you get all sorts of guns - you'll find it doesn't compare to a "real job".

---------------------
What the "drop ship" ammo program is about:

One big problem competitors at large USPSA/IPSC matches are having is ammo. 11lbs isn't that much, and is just a drop in the bucket if you're going to a 3-gun match. This program will allow competitors to mail-order ammo on-line, and it will be waiting for them at the match.

In fact, the biggest problem at the Ecuador match was ammo. Ammo for Indonesia 2008 will also be a challange, but I'm only working on solving the problem domestically.

Rob

 

[Len-2A Training]

Rob,

Very interesting, thanks!