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ADs and NDs, share your tales of woe

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lhonda

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This was written by an, ahem, very close friend of mine.

Anyone here care to share their own, er, I mean, a friend's tale...?

Leighton


I'll begin. Let me start by saying that I fully recognize the gross negligence of my actions, and should (and most certainly do) thank my lucky stars that no one was hurt. It was a valuable lesson, and now years later, confess I still do feel awful about it, although these days I am a bit more prone to snicker about it --but only because I was very lucky. It could have ended tragically. So, I'm not looking for a lesson in handgun safety. I've donned my lava suit and freely admit my stupidity, so please, save the hatred, but after thinking about another post, thought I'd share this and see if anyone else has a story they're willing to tell.

It was my first revolver, a S&W stainless M 66 in .357 mag. I loved it, and took it to the range and elsewhere to shoot as often as I could. One day, I had trouble hitting the target. This was unusual, as I had become confortable with it, and usually shot it fairly well. Problem was that this day I was shooting low and left, consistently. Anyway, displeased, I went home and had it nagging at me. I don't recall anymore if I spoke on the phone with a shooting bud or read about it on the web, but I got it into my head that it was not a problem of mechanical nature, but rather that it was something in my technique that had changed.

So, after dinner (I was living with my then girlfriend at the time, who was of Mexican descent and a newly minted attorney) I began thinking that I'd spend some time dry-firing it to see if I was pulling the shot, both SA and DA. Naturally, I checked very carefully to ensure that it was empty, and proceeded to dry-fire away at a stain on a brick in the heavy fireplace we had in the LR. Having been unable to determine if that was the problem, I continued for about a half hour, controlling my breathing and paying close attention to my squeeze, stance, etc. Still, I could find nothing definitive about my technique that would readily explain the problem, and began getting a bit frustrated. I ended up putting the revolver away and flipping on the tube.

At some point (probably during a commercial), I began obsessing again about my shooting, so back out comes the thing, and after another careful unload and inspection, I'm off to the races again. This went on and on, but to try to facilitate my analysis of the problem, decided I needed a more specific target to concentrate on. Coincidentally, one of my GF's favorite possessions was conveniently displayed in the fireplace...It was a very old, very intricately hand-carved wax ballet dancer type thing, weighing maybe 5-7 pounds. As it was late and she was already upstairs in bed, I figured there'd be no harm in aiming at this thing the dancer had around her chest, some sort of small, one inch medallion on a small chain.

Long story shorter, at some point I got sleepy and decided to head back up to bed, and loaded up the thing, as it was at the time my bedroom persuader (for intruders, not the GF ) . I then went to get a drink of water or somesuch, and sat back down on the couch to smoke a last butt before retiring.

Well, what did I do then before walking upstairs but pick the old girl one last time to run just a dozen more practice dry-fires through her, as she was sitting there next to the holster, all safe and unloaded. I checked. Didn't I?

I took careful aim, and proceeded to carefullly pull the trig...BAM! I about had a heart attack, and with a sickening realization remembered that I had just reloaded the thing before getting my drink of water.

The girl came down the stairs screaming, only to find me and the living room covered in a greasy white wax. Her precious heirloom was gone from the mid-chest up, and there I stood, murder weapon in hand. After receiving a tongue lashing to make a lesser man cry (and rightly so) I told her to go back upstairs, and told her that I'd clean up (at this point she hadn't yet figured out that I'd assasinated her favorite childhood doll--that initial tirade was kids' stuff compared to what I got later). Anyway, the round had gone right through the dancer's medallion, and hit a brick flush, but not before splattering the dancer's anatomy *everywhere*, including in my hair. I found the 158 grain semi wadcutter sitting in the fireplace, the grooves filled with wax, looking just like it was ready to be loaded, a few minutes later.

I still have that bullet as a testament to my own stupidity and negligence. Thank Heaven to Mergatroid that I observed at least one 'safety' measure, and hadn't chosen a spot on the wall/sheetrock instead, as I was living in a densely populated area of the city then.

So, anybody else feel like sharing? I *know* I'm not the only one here who has displayed a great knack for doing something horribly dumb and potentially dangerous, and got lucky.

Anyway 'twere a lesson I'll keep with me always, if nothing else! I don't do any dryfiring indoors anymore. Ever.
 
I'm new enough at this stuff that I haven't had an AD or ND happen to me and, God willing, I hope I never do. However, I was in a room with a guy once who had an ND, and it still scares me to think about it.

This was back in grad school in Arizona, I was close friends with a married couple and we often got together for beers and dinner. For reasons that I no longer recall, Paul decided to show me a .22 rifle he had in his room. He picked up the gun and I remember thinking it was uncool that he didn't verify that it was unloaded. I was immediately on edge as he was swinging it around and thankful that he hadn't swept me with the muzzle, because he was really acting careless with the gun. Then, BANG, it went off and he sent a round into the ceiling. I told hom to put the gun down and I got the hell out of there. I'll never forget that.
 
lhonda said:
So, I'm not looking for a lesson in handgun safety. I've donned my lava suit and freely admit my stupidity, so please, save the hatred, .
Click to expand...

Hey Leighton, the older I've gotten the more that I've learned to live by the words "There by the grace of God go I".
Thanks for sharing the story and everyone can learn from it. I'm very happy that no one was injured. I personally know of 4 AD's by 4 co-workers. 2 resulted in injuries to themselves. Accidents happen especially if we let them.
Jon
 
<knock on wood> I haven't had one....yet. My father educated me on the word "yet" - Y E T - You're Eligable Too. I hope I never do have one, but I never say never. :)
 
the closest I've come to an AD is while on the range. I had the gun pointed downrange and was getting ready to aim and shoot... when the gun went off.

Yup. Finger on the trigger. At least I remembered to have it down range before that sneaky finger got into the trigger guard.

I try not to repeat that. :-/

Ross
 
You know, I could add a near miss too.

I managed to actually break the bolt on my AR-15. It took me a little while to figure out why the ammo was getting stuck cock-eyed out of the ejection port. Some cartridges were feeding some weren't. I took out the mag to check the rifle, and as I always do after pulling out the mag on a semi-auto I pointed downrange and dryfired. I'd been having so much trouble with the gun and had just pulled a cartridge out of the ejection port so I wasn't expecting the gun to go BOOM. When it did I about pooped myself, but thankfully it just went into the berm. I was just very thankful for having been well trained enough to dryfire. Or in this case it was a "dryfire." Imagine if I'd been doing something with the rifle and hadn't fired that last round. Could have gone anywhere.
Lesson learned and reinforced...
 
I think it was German Chancellor Bismarck who said "only a fool learns from his own mistakes; I much prefer to learn from the mistakes of others." (OK, he undoubtedly said it in German, but if I had typed "Nur ein Nar von sien eigenen ..." I would have lost most of you.)

I've never had an ND (probably because I don't believe in AD's) so far <knock wood>. When I <knock wood>, I do it on my desk, which I've had for about 35 years. It's a nice large, heavy oak one that I picked up at a DoD contractor surplus equipment sale for about $25. I've refinished it, but one think I didn't repair, and one of the reasons I got it, is a rather rough hold in the top where somebody had a little "oops!" I did dig out the .45 FMJ that constituted the "oops" but will always have the hole as a reminder of what can happen when you think that you can't make any mistakes.

Ken
 
Although I have never had one, thank God, I definately have a few stories to share. And, they all come from the most untrained, inexperienced gun owners out there- police officers. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing on cops (especially since I work in LE, too).

1- A veteran police officer was training his rookie. Rookie was the passenger in the cruiser. They got involved in a short, but adreniline filled persuit. When the car pulled over, both officers went to exit the vehicle with their Glocks drawn. Well, the "experienced" officer pulled out his Glock with his finger in the trigger. He squeezed with his left hand to open the door and involuntarily squeezed with his right hand, too. He shot his rookie in the leg. Both the shooter and his police chief blamed the incident on the "unsafe" design of the Glock without and external safety. No disiplinary action was taken.

2- An officer was working dispatch in a department in W. Mass, close to the dept in incident #1. For some reason, he pulled out his pistol and shot his keyboard, with the Chief in the next room. Again, no disiplinary action was taken.

3- An instructor was teaching a firearms safety class at the Agawam Police Academy. He was telling the class how unsafe he felt the Glock design was because the trigger had to be pulled in order to disassemble it. He was stressing to the class how important it is to clear the chamber before disassembly. Too bad he didn't follow his own advice, since he shot the wall in front of the whole class. No disiplinary action was taken.

4- Another W. Mass police officer was "cleaning" his pistol on duty (not exactly the ideal time IMO, but that was his story). He shot the floor with his issued .40 cal Sigma. No disiplinary action was taken, yet again.

5- Last, but not least, another W. Mass officer was at home in his 2nd floor apartment cleaning his .40 Glock after yearly qualification. He was disassembling his pistol, but failed to clear the chamber. He shot his floor, which was also the ceiling in an infant's room in the apartment below. Luckily, it didn't completely penetrate the ceiling, but it did knock off a piece of plaster, so it almost did. Instead of immediately going downstairs to check on his neighbors, he just kept on cleaning. When the father of the infant went upstairs and knocked on the door, he only opened the door part way and told him everything was OK and to go home. The father called the PD. The officer's LTC was revoked for being an "unsuitable person" and he lost his job.

Now, the pattern I'm seeing here is that if you are LE, usually nothing will happen to you if you do something wrong, even if you shoot your partner! But, if anyone else had a ND/AD, most chiefs out there would immediately pull the individual's LTC as an "unsuitable person" for life.

It goes right along with the LE exemption for handguns in MA. If it were up to me, officers would only be allowed to carry what is on both the DPS's list and also meets the AG's regs. But, that's another thread.
 
Hawgleg, I seriously wish that ALL LEOs that carry were required to take at least one PROFESSIONAL firearms course from one of the Gunsite type quality trainers/year PLUS given ammo to practice (at least 200rds/month) and required to do so to keep their firearms qualification up.

It will NEVER happen, as the costs (including OT) would explode any PD's budget!

Having personally qualified as a PO for 19 years, I am appalled by the "training" that MA LEOs are required to do. I have also had this conversation with two other LEOs that have attended the Jim Crews and the recently completed Randy Cain courses and they agree with me that the typical LE training in the Northeast (they both serve in different states, neither of which is MA) is pathetic.
 
I've posted this on other forums/eLists over the years. My one and only AD (not ND, at least in my opinion) happened when I was a rookie Boy Scout at BS Camp. This was the only opportunities that I ever had to handle a gun until I became a gun owner in 1976.

We used .22 single shot bolt-action rifles donated by the original CMP at the camp. We were on the line at the range and the order was given to load 1 round. I loaded the round, closed the bolt and the rifle fired! My finger was nowhere near the trigger. The RO chewed me out, but the gun was safely pointed downrange and I had done NOTHING except what we had been ordered to do.

It impressed upon me the safety rules, because something can happen (broken part, debris, etc.) that can cause a gun to fire when Not intended!
 
Hawgleg44 said:
2- An officer was working dispatch in a department in W. Mass, close to the dept in incident #1. For some reason, he pulled out his pistol and shot his keyboard, with the Chief in the next room.
Click to expand...

Believe me, with the junker Dell my company gives me, I fully understand the officer's reason for shooting his keyboard! I've been tempted to do the same MANY times.

Ross
 
Len, I agree with you totally about how pathetic LE firearms training is.

Especially here in small town W. Mass, part-time officers make up 90%+ of many departments. They still have to attend the academy to learn Constitutional and Criminal law, Ethics and basic Defensive Tactics. They finally made it a little more advanced in 2000 and required trainees to pass "practical" exams like the full-time cadets do in order to graduate.

But, the entire firearms training in the academy involves a firearms safety course, with not a single round fired. I must admit that Chief Ron Glidden puts on an excellent class, but there is no range time at all. Don't get me wrong, it's no fault of his, but it is the fault of the people who write the class requirements.

I've always been around guns, shot, and was taught at a very early age how to safely handle and shoot rifles, shotguns and handguns. But, I am the exeption around here. The qualification course is so easy that I would not want anyone who cannot shoot a 96-98% carrying a gun. But, you only need an 80% to pass, and many have problems.

The MA course is simply a MA "Q" target (downsized milk bottle shaped silouhette), with 10 shots fired from 15, 10, 7, 5 and 3 yards. It's absolutely pathetic if you miss more than two shots. It's a static line, no barricades, nothing. And the alloted time is so slow that my arms get tired from covering my target waiting for the others to get done shooting! I actually witnessed one officer flinching so much that he was hitting the dirt in front of the target stand at a distance of 7 yards. The Chief at the time should have told him to go home, get instruction and come back when he could shoot. Instead, he just had the instructor keep putting him through the course until he finally qualified. It took 11 tries. And, he was a full-time trained officer who somehow passed the live fire class at the academy.

Now, this is usually the ONLY ammo that is fired by most of the cops around here. 100 rounds per year out of their handgun, and that's it. No other training, instruction, nothing. And, no other ammo is supplied. You get a fresh box of duty ammo at the end of qualification to carry until next year, and they supply you with the extra 50 rounds to get you through the course of fire another time. They just have you burn up your year-old duty ammo the first time through.

HR218 is a great thing, allowing anyone in LE to carry just about anywhere in the country, but I feel that the citizens of this country would be much better served and protected if they just issued one permit which was good everywhere. More qualified, armed people would be protecting this country better than many of the LE's out there.

I know I keep sounding like I'm hammering on cops in my posts, but I'm offended that the non-LE citizens of this country are totally overlooked while we can have people who are about as qualified as Barney Fife "protecting" the public. I would feel much safer with most of my non-LE friends carrying next to me than I do with some of my LE brothers and sisters.
 
The curriculum at the Academy is the ONLY approved curriculum to follow. Doing otherwise will result in the instructor being fired!

The people who write the curriculum (for all Academy classes) is the Mass Chiefs of Police Assn! Desk-jockeys, most of whom haven't responded to a call in >10 years and have forgotten what it means to be a "street cop". Until (Never) they put the rank and file officers in charge of creating the curriculum, it will always be this way in MA.

When I took the Reserve/Intermittent Academy back in the early 1980s, we ONLY had a very short class on firearms. It consisted ONLY of "parts ID" . . . this is a hammer, this is a trigger, this is a barrel, etc. NO mention of safety (e.g. keep finger off the trigger, point it safely, etc.) in this class. No range time either. Range Qualification, First Responder First Aid and CPR were all "on the department" (and we did do those things with our PD). When I took the FT Annual Firearms Refresher course at the MCJTC Academy in 2000, it consisted of showing a videotape of a take-down of a murder suspect and then get in our cars and head to the range to shoot the milk bottle! That was it over 19 years!

We never got spare ammo to practice, our FT POs (with a couple of exceptions) would never do it anyway unless they were paid OT for doing so.

There were numerous bullet holes in the walls of the PD. I also had a number of FT POs tell me that they never got qualifying scores over many years . . . I'm guessing that perhaps someone fudged their scores for them.

From what the NH and VT LEOs have told me, their training isn't much better either!
 
My story is similar to Lens. In fact, until I became an instructor and realized exactly what occured, I never gave this story much thought.

Many moons ago, the family owned a large parcel of land in Alton, NH. The closest neighbor's son and I were good friends. I was raised on the target range by a grandfather who was a rifle team coach. The neighbor's son was raised by a hunting family in the wilds of Maine.

This particular day, we took his new .22 rifle and headed into the woods to plink. Something we had done countless times before. (not to mention the fireworks and other dangerous pastimes of youth we shared)

On this particular day, I clearly remember it because I was thrilled that I had thought about something long before it happened.

The rifle was a break action similar to popular double barrel shotguns. Only, it was a single shot .22 that could fire all the popular .22 rimfire lengths.

The thing I had thought about and had asked was "Any chance this thing could pinch the rim and go off when you close the action?" Mark had no idea. We never gave it another thought and went off to have fun.

Several boxes of ammo later and a fairly long hike away from home, it happened. He closed the action and Bang! I know he didn't pull the trigger because you really could not close it up and have your hand there.

The bullet struck the ground a few yards in front of us and we both remarked that "wow, I guess it can pinch the case" and we continued having fun.

The reason I bring this up as a good example is for the very simple fact that it was a non-issue. Both of us had had enough safety drilled into us that the gun was naturally not pointing in an un-safe direction. That you had two kids with a dangerous tool and enough training that even when the tool didn't work properly, it was nothing more than of mild shock value to the kids.

We told his dad about it when we came home and I never did see that rifle again.

My only other "Safety Story" is one with a non-spectacular ending. I once took a gun out of my safe to pack to class and when I performed my usual 'open and check' routine, a round fell out of it. To this day I can not explain that except to say that I must not have checked the chamber the time I put that gun away.

It was one of those complete "wierd out" moments where you stand there staring at the gun and the round on the floor wondering how the heck what you are seeing could come to pass. Every single time I touch a gun now, I check it. I've been told that I perform the "Unload and How Clear" far too formally in IDPA matches. But I'll tell you, I don't ever want to get that 'feeling' again.

Chris
 
My XO and I were both brand new to the Turret of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, and the M242 Bushmaster. The Company Master Gunner was trying to get us some trigger time even though we hadent done BGST or any of the required training yet, but were getting our our Brad for the next gunnery. Long story short, I cycled my ghost round, ummm, twice.



Outside the range fan.

yeah.

Not a pretty sight.
 
Question for K Maurer

KMaurer said:
I've never had an ND (probably because I don't believe in AD's) so far <knock wood>.
Click to expand...

I've had this discussion before, and it is my firm contention that there most certainly are such things as ADs. And no, the one I described in the original post certainly wasn't one. :? But what of the story that was described by another poster, where his B/A rifle fired upon closing? That was negligent? Not in my book. How about the following: a duck hunter is standing in thigh-deep water, poised in natural cover amongst decoys, waiting for birds. Birds arrive, and begin coming in to land. Safety is on, finger is outside trigger guard. As the birds go to sit down, the hunter, as is his way, shoulders the pumpgun and takes aim, flicks the safety off and puts his finger on the trigger *just* about to cut loose. As he does this he takes a half step forward to 'step into' the shot., as is his way.

Unbeknownst to the hunter, there's a 10"-12" depression in the mud just in front of him, so as he steps into the shot, his left foot finds nothing but water, and the hunter pitches face first forward into the 38 degree water. As a subconscious reaction to entering the water, the hunter tenses up and a the shotgun discharges harmlessly into the water. AD or ND, and *why*?

A hunter sits in a tree stand all day, and it's been freezing drizzle. Hunter sees a deer, and he goes from half to full cock on his trusty Winchester .30-30. Deer gets a snoot full of scent and bolts. Hunter decides to call it a day, and goes to let the hammer down on the rifle with the muzzle pointed at the ground. The gloves he's wearing have iced up a tiny bit on the thumb, and when he pulls back the hammer, the icy bit on his glove hits the steel and the hammer falls, discharging the rifle. AD or ND, and *why*?

I think we will disagree on this one, as I strongly believe that there are some cases where an AD is exactly that, and has nothing to do with negligence. They are very few and far between, but nonetheless in my book they absolutely exist.

Curious to hear your thoughts. Not looking for a flame war, I really want to hear why you think that there are no ADs.

Cheers,

Leighton
 
A rifle that fires upon the bolt closing (slam fire) is AD. The duck hunter, deer hunter, and the guy with the gloves is ND. Why? Because the latter caused their discharge by their own physical actions and could have been avoided. The former was a mechanical malfunction / discharge.
 
TonyD said:
A rifle that fires upon the bolt closing (slam fire) is AD. The duck hunter, deer hunter, and the guy with the gloves is ND. Why? Because the latter caused their discharge by their own physical actions and could have been avoided. The former was a mechanical malfunction / discharge.
Click to expand...

I agree with Tony on all for the same reasons.
 
While I respect the opinions given, I totally disagree, and neither of you really addressed the negligence aspect I was after. Please tell me *specifically* how that duck hunter or deer hunter were *NEGLIGENT*. Yes, their physical actions caused a discharge, as does the slamfire scenario, that's pretty obvious, but how are the other two negligent? Far be it from me to question (joke here), but last time I checked, falling down was pretty universally an accidental kind of thing.

Curious: do either of you hunt, or only punch paper?
 
lhonda said:
While I respect the opinions given, I totally disagree, and neither of you really addressed the negligence aspect I was after. Please tell me *specifically* how that duck hunter or deer hunter were *NEGLIGENT*. Yes, their physical actions caused a discharge, as does the slamfire scenario, that's pretty obvious, but how are the other two negligent? Far be it from me to question (joke here), but last time I checked, falling down was pretty universally an accidental kind of thing.

Curious: do either of you hunt, or only punch paper?
Click to expand...

You answered your own question when you stated that, yes, their physical actions caused the discharge.

I'm not 'slamming' here by any means. However, when we are in charge of firearms and they go 'boom' unintentionally, it's our own fault.

The duck hunter should have never had his finger on the trigger "just about" to do anything then took another half step into the abyss. Sorry, but it's his fault. No subconscious, if his finger is not on the trigger, no shot.

The deer hunter with the glove; His finger is in the trigger guard and his thumb is on the hammer. Had he performed the only acceptable way of decocking a hammer (by placing his thumb between the hammer and pin) it would not have discharged.

Maybe you can call it negligent by accident. No one intended for the shots to go off but they did directly resulting from the firearm handler's action. That is negligent.
 
Tony beat me to it.

In both cases, physical action by the shooter resulted in the firearm discharging, even though they weren't intentional and an accident, they still fall in to the ND category IMHO.
 
If you firmly believe that there are no such things as AD's, only but ND's, then you'll discover two things: (1) You're about 1 million times less likely to ever have an ND, and (2) you're also much less likely to have one of those AD's that you don't believe exist. It's a lot like Jeff Cooper's first rule: All guns are always loaded, all of the time. Is it true from a strictly scientific point of view? Of course not. But if you firmly believe that it's true, bad things are much less likely to happen.

Of course I pretty much just plink these days, but I used to compete. I've also hunted and been hunted. I'm still on this side of the grass.

Ken
 
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

In the duck hunting situation, the discharge was pure AD. I was there, and I saw it happen. No negligence involved, simply a situation that unfolded where the actor in the process of the shot had a clusterf*ck situation rear its head. As far as what someone here said, it seems pretty clear to me that they've never been in a hunting situation. As a human, while you can certainly do your best at making accidents never happen, you sure you cannot predict or divine what the next step has in store.

As to the military guys, I would think that this is common knowledge. You're telling me that in, say, a firefight, rounds are flying, your friends are getting maybe getting injured or slain, qnd you take a bead on a BG , go to pop a round off, then take a step and trip on a rock while your finger is on the trigger, and your weapon dischargers, that's a NG? I say BS. Again, not to start a flame war, but I'm not buying.

One of my best friends and hunting partner is an SAS trained Air Commando, who served 3.5 tours with a JSOG SF outfit the 'Land of all Bad Things' (and surrounding countries) in the late 60s and early 70s, and like me, hunts every spare minute he can. We hunt together, and hard, and it is my belief that if you hunt down and dirty like we do, it's virtually a given that some times things are going to become SNAFU, and negligence doesn't necessarily enter into the equation in a discharge.

I highly respect those who have served, and all of you who share our passion of shooting sports, but very frankly, I think paper punchers and some of those who proclaim there are no ADs are full of shit. I've hunted waterfowl alone for 1000 days in the past 8 years, with 1 AD, and I know in my heart that negligence had squat to do with it; it was pure accident. And while some will certainly disagree, there's nothing in this world that could convince me otherwise--I was there.

Anyway, cheers.

L
 

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