Addressing Muzzle Rise in Handgun Shooting

[earthshine402]

You need to grip the sh*t out of the gun. Really hard. Don't use any of these grip trainers that are "easy", while watching TV. That does nothing. I bought some of these Captains of Crush grippers:
http://www.amazon.com/Captains-Crus...=1390219404&sr=8-1&keywords=captains+of+crush

I started out with the 100lb "Trainer".. That is my "easy" one that I can do 20 on each hand in the car. I've got the 120lb 0.5 and 140lb #1 also. I can get about 10 reps of the 120lb on each hand right now. This really helped me control recoil this past season.

Also, as probably shown in the video, get a really high grip with the support hand.

 

[M1911]

Lock your wrists and grip the heck out of the gun. Be careful with grip strength training - it is really easy to overtrain get overuse injuries (tendonitis).

 

[RKG]

From an engineering perspective, one can model the recoil of a typical auto pistol as an "L" on its side. The horizontal long piece represents the barrel. The vertical short piece represents the grip.

When the pistol fires and once the bullet has exited the barrel, there is a force pushing straight back on the breech face, which is pretty much at the intersection of the two arms of the "L." If the pistol were somehow suspended in space (as opposed to being held by the shooter), the pistol would move essentially straight back. ("Essentially" because there would be some inertial effect of the weight of the grip.) However, the shooter holding the grip imposes what amounts to an anchor/pivot point mid-way along the length of the grip. If the shooter's grip cannot move rearward, recoil forces the "L" to pivot, with the muzzle rising.

In my experience (both as a shooter and as an instructor), a "death grip" is not the solution. In the first place, this only reinforces the connection of the grip to the "anchor." In addition, the muscular effort required for a death grip will induce tremors and other impediments to good shooting.

However, here's something you can try at your next range outing. After extending your arms and locking your elbows, pull the gun back toward you about an inch. This will unlock your elbows and give the "L" a bit more freedom to move straight back. This works for most people (but not all).

 

[IPSC_DRL]

60 % of your grip should be in your support hand and only about 40% with your trigger hand. If you tense up too much with the "strong" hand, it is hard to have good trigger control.

 

[earthshine402]

After extending your arms and locking your elbows

If you are doing this, you are doing it wrong. My elbows point outward, like Sevigny, when gripping.

As a competitive pistol shooter (USPSA/IDPA), the gripping hard approach really works. It allows quicker follow-up shots, and can compensate for sloppy trigger control.

 

[center442]

LOL! I was referring to MAshooter1 - he told us he was 180 lb!

Thanks a lot, I'll start off with the light one - very helpful!

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Thanks for the helpful comment!

(Just in case you didn't catch it, I wrote that in "English Sarcasm" font)

Rose, there's another old trick that was used by bullseye shooters decades ago. They would get an empty glass quart milk bottle and start out by filling it about one-fourth full with sand. They would then hold the bottle out at arm's length as if they were aiming a handgun. Increase the amount of sand and the length of time that they "aimed" it as their strength improved. It not only built up the arm and shoulder muscles, but also built up the muscles in the hand since you had to grip firmly to prevent the neck of the bottle from sliding through your hand.

The biggest problem with using that method today is finding a glass milk bottle.

 

[EnglishRose]

Rose, there's another old trick that was used by bullseye shooters decades ago. They would get an empty glass quart milk bottle and start out by filling it about one-fourth full with sand. They would then hold the bottle out at arm's length as if they were aiming a handgun. Increase the amount of sand and the length of time that they "aimed" it as their strength improved. It not only built up the arm and shoulder muscles, but also built up the muscles in the hand since you had to grip firmly to prevent the neck of the bottle from sliding through your hand.

The biggest problem with using that method today is finding a glass milk bottle.

Glass milk bottle aside, that's at least an easy enough concept! I guess I can just improvise with a different container


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[Supermoto]

If you are doing this, you are doing it wrong. My elbows point outward, like Sevigny, when gripping.

As a competitive pistol shooter (USPSA/IDPA), the gripping hard approach really works. It allows quicker follow-up shots, and can compensate for sloppy trigger control.

Yep. Although I shoot with elbows down

 

[drgrant]

But ... But ... Isn't that a Para SSP he's shooting? I thought I had the only one in the world that doesn't suck ....

It is, all kinds of good shooters have worked for shitty gun companies, that doesn't really mean much. One of the women who used to shoot for Glock is now running Tauruses. I'm sure she has no problem getting guns that work. Even broken clocks can be right twice a day.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

In my experience (both as a shooter and as an instructor), a "death grip" is not the solution. In the first place, this only reinforces the connection of the grip to the "anchor." In addition, the muscular effort required for a death grip will induce tremors and other impediments to good shooting.

The theory sounds all well and good, but watch the video posted above by Mike Seeklander. He is shooting full power ammunition. Gripping the gun correctly AND very hard does greatly reduce muzzle flip dramatically. That allows you to track the front sight and get follow up shots faster.

 

[Supermoto]

It is, all kinds of good shooters have worked for shitty gun companies, that doesn't really mean much. One of the women who used to shoot for Glock is now running Tauruses. I'm sure she has no problem getting guns that work. Even broken clocks can be right twice a day.

-Mike

A lot of the top shooters guns are not built by the company they represent

 

[fubar]

That's good. I enjoy being the only guy on earth with one o them POS's that has never failed.

 

[fubar]

Favorite/hated manufacturers aside , I think some factor in recoil control is the platform itself.

I love my SIG, but it's slower for me ( 9mm ) than my 1911's.

 

[mav]

60 % of your grip should be in your support hand and only about 40% with your trigger hand. If you tense up too much with the "strong" hand, it is hard to have good trigger control.

Not for nothing, but the Army and Marine Pistol Marksmanship manuals both say when using a two-handed grip, EQUAL pressure from both hands must be utilized.

From the .mil Army manual:
"The firing hand should exert the same pressure as the nonfiring hand. If it
does not, a missed target could result. "


Army Pistol Marksmanship Manual
Marine Pistol Marksmanship Manual

As far as the OP's problem, according to the Marine Pistol manual: "the amount of muzzle climb during recoil depends on the amount of controlled muscular tension in the grip and wrists applied to stabilize the pistol and create consistency in resistance to recoil".

Bottom line, grip it harder. If you can't, you need to get stronger. If none of that works, don't shoot a polymer pistol. Go for a heavier pistol with less felt recoil, like a Sig 226 9mm.

 

[M1911]

60 % of your grip should be in your support hand and only about 40% with your trigger hand. If you tense up too much with the "strong" hand, it is hard to have good trigger control.

Everyone says that, but what does it mean? I can't tell that one hand is gripping at 60% and the other at 40%. That stuff may work for bullseye. But for action shooting, you need to control recoil.

Mike Seeklander grips the hell out of his gun. He's got awesome trigger control and very little muzzle rise.

Seriously, try it. Go to the range and shoot a couple shots with a soft grip. Carefully watch the front sight (or video from the side). Then repeat, but with locked wrists and gripping the hell out of the gun as shown in the Seeklander video in this thread. You'll see the difference.

 

[GunGrey]

A lot of the top shooters guns are not built by the company they represent

they're just advertisement space

 

[fubar]

What platforms do the top shooters use ? In other words : what guns win ( when used by the people who are the worlds best ) ?

Referring to games where speed counts , of course.

 

[mav]

Everyone says that, but what does it mean? I can't tell that one hand is gripping at 60% and the other at 40%. That stuff may work for bullseye. But for action shooting, you need to control recoil.

Sounds like misinformation to me. I posted links to both the Army and Marine Pistol Marksmanship Manuals above. I was taught to maintain equal pressure in a 2-handed grip and to use a strong grip and the field manuals stress the same thing...

 

[Supermoto]

What platforms do the top shooters use ? In other words : what guns win ( when used by the people who are the worlds best ) ?

Referring to games where speed counts , of course.

2011s

 

[earthshine402]

What platforms do the top shooters use ? In other words : what guns win ( when used by the people who are the worlds best ) ?

Referring to games where speed counts , of course.

The platforms that the top shooters use have little to do with their winning.

This is also sort of a loaded question - it depends on the division equipment rules, what game it is, etc.

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2011s

yea.. this..

 

[mav]

What platforms do the top shooters use ? In other words : what guns win ( when used by the people who are the worlds best ) ?

Referring to games where speed counts , of course.

How does that relate to the OP's initial problem and question of muzzle rise and grip? The issue is one of technique, training, and fitness. The platform is the least part of the equation... unless the OP is shooting a Desert Eagle .44 Mag.

 

[tysdad115]

I was trying to tell my son (but he wont listen to dad) about him flinching and needing to work on muzzle rise to no avail. So I took this Saturday at the range and showed him his mother is much more steady when they are shooting right next to each other. Now he will start working on his grip and not breaking his wrist, I suggested he should probably keep his eyes open too, but I'm wrong again apparently. When do they start listening again ? At 13 he knows everything.
[video=youtube_share;r64U_60J9MM]http://youtu.be/r64U_60J9MM[/video]

 

[Boghog1]

I was trying to tell my son (but he wont listen to dad) about him flinching and needing to work on muzzle rise to no avail. So I took this Saturday at the range and showed him his mother is much more steady when they are shooting right next to each other. Now he will start working on his grip and not breaking his wrist, I suggested he should probably keep his eyes open too, but I'm wrong again apparently. When do they start listening again ? At 13 he knows everything.
[video=youtube_share;r64U_60J9MM]http://youtu.be/r64U_60J9MM[/video]

They don't listen to dad, I was teaaching my son about rifle shooting and I kept getting the I know what I am doing, 2 minutes with another person saying the same things I had said and he was ringing steel. Find a friend sing their praises and have them give the kid some pointers

 

[BeastlyAdams]

the grip in the video above on the shooter further from the camera is all wrong.

Here is a snapshot of a proper pistol grip. Notice how his support hand actually is above the lower frame.

 

[BossHarley]

I saw an interview with Jerry M - one of the best in the world. He basically says he crushes the gun with grip pressure, though trains to be able to have a free trigger finger even when exerting so much force on his guns. I have tried and just don't have the strength or technique - I think there are multiple techniques, but strength and practice is probably the key.


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[M1911]

I saw an interview with Jerry M - one of the best in the world. He basically says he crushes the gun with grip pressure, though trains to be able to have a free trigger finger even when exerting so much force on his guns. I have tried and just don't have the strength or technique - I think there are multiple techniques, but strength and practice is probably the key.

Look at the size of Jerry's hands and forearms.

I do try to grip the gun hard to reduce muzzle rise. I don't have nearly the strength (or technique) of Jerry. But it does help. I also use grip tape, which also helps.

 

[Supermoto]

Look at the size of Jerry's hands and forearms.

I do try to grip the gun hard to reduce muzzle rise. I don't have nearly the strength (or technique) of Jerry. But it does help. I also use grip tape, which also helps.

One thing I have noticed is that a lot of top practical shooters have very strong hand shakes. It is a surprisingly good way to tell who is a good shooter

 

[bill o]

Sounds like misinformation to me. I posted links to both the Army and Marine Pistol Marksmanship Manuals above. I was taught to maintain equal pressure in a 2-handed grip and to use a strong grip and the field manuals stress the same thing...

I would ignore the military field manuals if you want to be a good pistol shooter. Look to what the competition shooters do.

 

[mursenary4]

Everyone should watch that video of miculek. He is an incredible shooter and I am going to try my very best to copy all he says in that video. I should be shooting just as fast as him in a few days I think... NOT

 

[falcon123]

ugh . . . I've found the M&P to be an exceptionally polarizing gun in terms of handling.

Personally, I've shot 3 different M&P's and couldn't hit anything.
With Glocks, CZ's and Sig's I can shoot exactly what I'm looking at .

I'm not sure why these guns would shoot better for me than others.

Funny you say that. I had the same experience shooting my brother's CZ. Dead on target first time. Have a tough time with my pre ban Beretta 92FS and my Shield. I know what the Shield problem is.