Active-shooting incident reported at community college in Oregon

[jibbr71]

Agreed, but this does nothing to prevent shootings by anyone who is planning to kill but just hasn't done it yet.

Sonofabitch!!! I just figured it out! We should make murder illegal. Where do I pick up my Nobel prize?

 

[ChevyGuy91]

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/...22/why-does-chicagohavesomanyillegalguns.html



If I can legally buy a duffle bag full of handguns at an Indiana gun show without there being any record of the purchase, then drive to Chicago and sell them on the street, then clearly the laws aren't adequate...

Missed your edit again. If you did this, you would already be committing a crime. If you were a criminal, you wouldn't care if this act was more illegal, would you? I doubt it.

 

[Rider]

It's amazing. There are actually adult men out there who want other adults to make up rules that micromanage their own lives. It's a state of perpetual childhood.

Read Erich Fromm's Escape From Freedom. In summary, there are two types of freedom: Freedom to, and freedom from. Many people choose freedom from. Freedom from choice, freedom from responsibility, freedom from risk. If I give over control of my life to someone else, then I am no longer responsible for the things that go wrong. I can always blame someone else because I have given the responsibilities of making decisions to others.

The sad thing is, humans have been fighting the same fights and having the same arguments for almost all of human history, and little has changed. The only truly noteworthy thing about the times we live in now are that we are historically free, historically safe, and historically wealthy, and we are looking for ways to destroy those things as we wage what amounts to a crusade over topics that have trivial real impact on our lives.

When Facebook has become the touchstone for so many people's moral compasses, we really are circling the drain. The good news is that it won't be too long before Russia flushes - if you're into that sort of thing.

 

[bill o]

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/...22/why-does-chicagohavesomanyillegalguns.html



If I can legally buy a duffle bag full of handguns at an Indiana gun show without there being any record of the purchase, then drive to Chicago and sell them on the street, then clearly the laws aren't adequate...

Although free adults should be able to buy and sell property without government interference, what you described is super illegal. Did you realize that before you posted?

 

[Pete85]

How would you suggest we address volume purchases by straw buyers or direct distribution by corrupt dealers that go directly to the black market?

This is an excellent example of how laws can't prevent crimes. When caught and convicted, apply the appropriate punishment to them as prescribed in the law to these people. Hold the criminals accountable. There was a thread on this site not too long ago about a guy who used stolen identities to purchase guns and then resell them to criminals. The guy was caught and pled guilty...and was sentenced to one year of probation. Someone added up the penalties for all counts of all the crimes he committed and if the maximum penalties would have had him doing something like 3000 years in prison (no that is not a typeo). If they were serious about stopping gun violence, that guy would never see the outside of a jail cell again.

 

[soloman02]

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/...22/why-does-chicagohavesomanyillegalguns.html



If I can legally buy a duffle bag full of handguns at an Indiana gun show without there being any record of the purchase, then drive to Chicago and sell them on the street, then clearly the laws aren't adequate...

The majority of firearms used in crime in Illinois come from.....


Wait for it.......






Wait for it some more.....






Drum roll please.....






ILLINOIS!

https://www.atf.gov/file/89691/download

 

[namedpipes]

Laws cannot and should not prevent.

They should appropriately punish criminal behavior.

I admit I have some difficulty with equating mental illness with criminality. I wish there were a way to help without leaving a door open for the likes of the Brady Bunch to insert their latest gun control plan of the day... But treating someone that is insane as a criminal gives me trouble, too.

 

[Ultimate Shield]

The majority of firearms used in crime in Illinois come from.....


Wait for it.......






Wait for it some more.....






Drum roll please.....






ILLINOIS!

https://www.atf.gov/file/89691/download

I truly love how anti-gun states turn to blaming others for their failed policies... It could never be that their policies are just incredibly bad.

 

[modernhamlet]

So we have the laws in place to cut off the supply of guns from straw purchasers, we're just not investigating and/or prosecuting them adequately?

Neither Background checks nor gun show/private sale registration would prevent thousands of guns from entering Chicago's black market each year?

 

[jibbr71]

So we have the laws in place to cut off the supply of guns from straw purchasers, we're just not investigating and/or prosecuting them adequately?

Neither Background checks nor gun show/private sale registration would prevent thousands of guns from entering Chicago's black market each year?

Bingo.

 

[atilla]

So we have the laws in place to cut off the supply of guns from straw purchasers, we're just not investigating and/or prosecuting them adequately?

Neither Background checks nor gun show/private sale registration would prevent thousands of guns from entering Chicago's black market each year?

how are you coming into this conversation not already knowing all that?

in IL for example you need a permit, therefore a background check is being done. if you sell a gun privately to someone without a permit you've broken the law. if you make a straw purchase you have broken the law. there are already laws in place there and look at how safe chicago is.

 

[bill o]

how are you coming into this conversation not already knowing all that?

in IL for example you need a permit, therefore a background check is being done. if you sell a gun privately to someone without a permit you've broken the law. if you make a straw purchase you have broken the law. there are already laws in place there and look at how safe chicago is.

It's almost as if drug dealers have a huge incentive to acquire guns and they'll break whatever laws they need to. It's baffling.

 

[modernhamlet]

Thanks for all the answers. Particularly those of you who weren't *******s about it.

 

[bigblue]

Thanks for all the answers. Particularly those of you who weren't *******s about it.

Seriously, take a look at the prosecution rates for the crimes that you are referencing. At both the state and federal level, these crimes just aren't a priority yet for some reason we need MOAR LAWRS.

What is the point of laws if you don't prosecute those who break them?

"While President Obama decries gun violence and presses for more laws to restrict ownership, his Justice Department has prosecuted 25 percent fewer cases referred by the main law enforcement agency charged with reducing firearms violence across the country, a computer analysis of U.S. prosecution data shows."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...c-gun-prosecutions-plummet-under-ob/?page=all

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankmi...ation-is-going-after-the-good-guys-with-guns/

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/wa...new-york-prosecuted-fewest-federal-gun-crimes

http://www.bjs.gov/content/guns.cfm

 

[teaser452]

how are you coming into this conversation not already knowing all that?

There are two types of liberals. Ignorant ones and evil ones. I can't tell which Hamlet is, but he sure is ignorant of a lot of the laws on the books already. Maybe we cut him some slack and just call him obstinately ignorant.

 

[1903Collector]

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/...22/why-does-chicagohavesomanyillegalguns.html



If I can legally buy a duffle bag full of handguns at an Indiana gun show without there being any record of the purchase, then drive to Chicago and sell them on the street, then clearly the laws aren't adequate...

I don't even know where to start with this statement....so I won't

 

[Squire]

What is the point of laws if you don't prosecute those who break them?

I know you know the answer to this, but I'll provide one for modernhamlet: It's not about stopping crime or reducing violence, it's about Controlling individuals who value Freedom and taking away their Right to change Government with Force, as a last resort.

 

[MachineHead]

modernhamlet, your well-intended solutions to the problems that happen to involve guns are not without victims.

In order to do what you propose, you have to infringe on the rights of the law-abiding. If the non law-abiding are willing to do whatever to get a gun then they will do just that.

We are living in a time where some people want black, killy-looking rifles to disappear, just because of how they look and their cartridge capacity. They're seeing them how some people saw machine guns back in the day.

Giving anything up wrt to the 2A is going to lead to more or even "incidental" giving up of more 2A until you wake up and and realize that you've been drained of anything that once resembled the 2A.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

So we have the laws in place to cut off the supply of guns from straw purchasers, we're just not investigating and/or prosecuting them adequately?

Neither Background checks nor gun show/private sale registration would prevent thousands of guns from entering Chicago's black market each year?

 

[modernhamlet]

You get what you give

You make a rediculous assertion that is totally ignorant of existing law on a RKBA forum and actually expect to NOT be met with proportionate response?

I didn't make an assertion. I asked a question. Seriously. I don't swim in this cultural pond every single day like many of you clearly do. I'm educating myself on this. And I appreciate your patience.

The fact that prosecution rates for these crimes is that low is simply ridiculous. Because cutting off that flow would probably do more to lower the gun violence numbers in this country than anything else we could do.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

The fact that prosecution rates for these crimes is that low is simply ridiculous. Because cutting off that flow would probably do more to lower the gun violence numbers in this country than anything else we could do.

It probably won't, but I will settle for a half win here.

 

[bigblue]

I know you know the answer to this, but I'll provide one for modernhamlet: It's not about stopping crime or reducing violence, it's about Controlling individuals who value Freedom and taking away their Right to change Government with Force, as a last resort.

Sorry you are right, I left that rhetorical question far too open ended.

"Do you know where Chicago ranks in terms of enforcement of the federal gun laws? Out of 90 jurisdictions in the country, they ranked 90th."

" On a per-capita basis Chicago ranks dead last for prosecuting gun crimes."

" according to the National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS), in 2010 of the 6 million Americans who attempted to buy a gun, about 76,000 were denied. Of those, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) referred 4,732 cases for prosecution. Of these, 44 people were prosecuted and 13 were punished."

"Such numbers explain why felons who attempt to buy guns from gun stores—and thereby subject themselves to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)—know there is only a slightly higher chance they’ll be prosecuted (1.7 in 10,000) than struck by lightening (1 in 10,000, according to the National Weather Service). "

 

[jibbr71]

Because cutting off that flow would probably do more to lower the gun violence numbers in this country than anything else we could do.

No, it wouldn't. Criminals are gonna criminal, the best way to stop criminal activity is to make it hurt, or be fatal.

 

[MAD Geary]

What do you think is preventing this today? Why is it that most of the illegal handguns (and it's almost always handguns) involved in Chicago shootings come from the same few sources just outside of Chicago? Why is it that the gov can't nail these evil people?

Why do we have so many illegal immigrants? Why is it that the gov can't nail these people and send them away.

 

[Squire]

I didn't make an assertion. I asked a question. Seriously. I don't swim in this cultural pond every single day like many of you clearly do. I'm educating myself on this. And I appreciate your patience.

The fact that prosecution rates for these crimes is that low is simply ridiculous. Because cutting off that flow would probably do more to lower the gun violence numbers in this country than anything else we could do.

It's really quite simple. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed. Using it to commit a crime is illegal.

Interstate commerce of guns is debatable, because Congress can regulate interstate commerce and one's Rights are arguably not infringed upon by having to record transfers of firearms across state lines, as laws on the books require.

 

[modernhamlet]

No, it wouldn't. Criminals are gonna criminal, the best way to stop criminal activity is to make it hurt, or be fatal.

If the supply of guns to the South Side of Chicago dried up considerably, criminals would still criminal. They'd still shoot each other. But on an aggregate level, they'd have fewer guns to do it with and murders would go down. Would they look for guns elsewhere? Yup. And if law enforcement would systematically shut down those flows, they'd still get some in. But not as many. I don't buy the notion that criminals (and potential criminals) can get all the guns they want and there's nothing we can do about it. We can cut off the illegal supply by making it harder to supply guns illegally and by punishing the crap out of those that do. And none of that would negatively impact law-abiding gun owners.

 

[MAD Geary]

If the supply of guns to the South Side of Chicago dried up considerably, criminals would still criminal. They'd still shoot each other. But on an aggregate level, they'd have fewer guns to do it with and murders would go down. Would they look for guns elsewhere? Yup. And if law enforcement would systematically shut down those flows, they'd still get some in. But not as many. I don't buy the notion that criminals (and potential criminals) can get all the guns they want and there's nothing we can do about it. We can cut off the illegal supply by making it harder to supply guns illegally and by punishing the crap out of those that do. And none of that would negatively impact law-abiding gun owners.

 

[atilla]

If the supply of guns to the South Side of Chicago dried up considerably, criminals would still criminal. They'd still shoot each other. But on an aggregate level, they'd have fewer guns to do it with and murders would go down. Would they look for guns elsewhere? Yup. And if law enforcement would systematically shut down those flows, they'd still get some in. But not as many. I don't buy the notion that criminals (and potential criminals) can get all the guns they want and there's nothing we can do about it. We can cut off the illegal supply by making it harder to supply guns illegally and by punishing the crap out of those that do. And none of that would negatively impact law-abiding gun owners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation#Mexico

now go google image search "mexican cartel weapons".

laws or not--criminals gonna criminal. and let me tell you the cartels don't roll with hi-points or lorcins.

gun laws are a joke.

No, it wouldn't. Criminals are gonna criminal, the best way to stop criminal activity is to make it hurt, or be fatal.

this is the solution.

 

[bigblue]

If the supply of guns to the South Side of Chicago dried up considerably, criminals would still criminal. They'd still shoot each other. But on an aggregate level, they'd have fewer guns to do it with and murders would go down. Would they look for guns elsewhere? Yup. And if law enforcement would systematically shut down those flows, they'd still get some in. But not as many. I don't buy the notion that criminals (and potential criminals) can get all the guns they want and there's nothing we can do about it. We can cut off the illegal supply by making it harder to supply guns illegally and by punishing the crap out of those that do. And none of that would negatively impact law-abiding gun owners.

There would be at least a 5 year lag based on the statistics quoted earlier (something like 75% of the guns were purchased 5+ years previous). That means that you need a level of patience with policy implementation that simply does not exist. The fastest way to clean up the streets would be to prosecute the laws currently on the books.

You don't seriously think this is an accident do you? That Chicago is first in gun murders and last in prosecution of gun crimes? They don't WANT to fix this because it is exactly as the planned. How else do you explain the statistics?

 

[kevin9]

I didn't make an assertion. I asked a question. Seriously. I don't swim in this cultural pond every single day like many of you clearly do. I'm educating myself on this. And I appreciate your patience.

Those who listen, learn.

The fact that prosecution rates for these crimes is that low is simply ridiculous. Because cutting off that flow would probably do more to lower the gun violence numbers in this country than anything else we could do.

I don't think it would do more than allowing potential victims to exercise their right to arm and defend themselves, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.