9mm vs 45 acp .223/5.56 vs. ?????

DarkJoker33 said:
I mean, if you follow spomers video, shot placement is key.
So outside of that tank shot, accuracy wins.

Had the 7.62x51.
Logic behind it when I first bought the gun, was if shtf, the ammo is everywhere and plentiful.
But, from a lot of what I've been watching and Minor reading, 6.5 grendal is close to the same performance. Just ammo isn't plentiful like .308.

I honestly thought about doing an upper in that and selling the 45-70 to fund it.
But dammit, I 💚 me some good ole lever action
Click to expand...
shot placement is key...and if you use a 22 on a moose you had best be incredibly close and incredibly accurate; meanwhile a 223 will leave nothing of your chipmunk.

choose the right cartridge for the target you're shooting at.
 
The reason why .30 caliber projectiles were a thing is warfare was centered on line fighting in the open vs. horses and that happened to overlap with hunting game. (same deal why rifles and bayonets were excessively long for use as spears/pikes).

When warfare shifted to fire & maneuver without the concern for having to fight/defend against cavalry in the open, rifles & ammunition changed with the times.

Similar deal with .45 ACP. When your only ammo type was lead ball vs. drugged up Pinoys wearing bamboo armor, it made sense to have a heavy big bullet to smash a big hole. Now that we have fast small bullets, with sufficient velocity to punch through things, and hollow point designs to expand after impact to make big holes, the need for a big bullet isn't there so much anymore.

The ammo evolved with the times in both cases.
 
Waher said:
The ammo evolved with the times in both cases.
Click to expand...
very true, plus, when you start talking of an actual military applications vs hunting or recreation the first thing you get to deal with is an actual carrying capacity and ability of the soldier to remain agile while having a sufficient supply of ammo to survive the combat.
and then we get to a concept of a squad where multiple roles compensate shortcoming of others, then alpha vs bravo. all armies are the same in that regard.

then we go into an urban combat specifically where 7.62 was proven problematic and got replaced with 5.45/5.56 by a multitude of reasons - and it happened almost synchronously in warsaw pact and nato. and in the end - we get here here, what shows which calibers are 'effective' and in what specific combinations:
1633620839315.png
 
DarkJoker33 said:
I was looking into that when I was looking 6.5 Grendel.

All the info from here is nice
Calibers Compatible With Standard AR-15 5.56mm Lower

Main focus was using G.I. mags reliably
Click to expand...
i do not mean it in a mean way :) - but you do not have a slightest idea of what you want.
and it is ok, really, not to know, i mean, as it just takes time. so, experiment, get different uppers and different rifles, try it out.
just do not ask of what is 'most effective', as it makes no sense at all, to phrase it like that.
what effective against the mouse is not effective against the moose. what works for moose will not against the elephant.
to kill people specifically - the m855/m193 is effective enough.
 
Actually the 458 is made to work in a standard 223/556 magazine. With the original follower.
 
paul73 said:
i do not mean it in a mean way :) - but you do not have a slightest idea of what you want.
and it is ok, really, not to know, i mean, as it just takes time. so, experiment, get different uppers and different rifles, try it out.
just do not ask of what is 'most effective', as it makes no sense at all, to phrase it like that.
what effective against the mouse is not effective against the moose. what works for moose will not against the elephant.
to kill people specifically - the m855/m193 is effective enough.
Click to expand...
Didn't take it that way. All good 👍.
I guess, what I'm looking for , is an all rounder ,

Something that's accurate at distance (distance unknown)

Something that's loadable into a standard gi mag

Readily available/kinda common

Doesn't cost an arm and a leg

Which all this brought me to the Grendel.
It's just not a Readily available round.
 
MFSP101 said:
Actually the 458 is made to work in a standard 223/556 magazine. With the original follower.
Click to expand...
Yes, but look at who is offering the mag : CA Legal Mags. It’s strictly for restricted states. If you have a standard follower in your 10 round .450 Bushmaster/.458 SOCOM/.50 Beowulf in a restricted state they will consider it a 30 round STANAG. Unless you are using pre-ban mags, you’ll be in trouble with the powers that be. The dedicated “fat round” follower lets you have post-ban 10 round mags for these rounds. If you try to put .223/5.56 rounds in a mag with this follower they will just pop right out since the follower centers the round between the feed lips. Otherwise , if you’re using post-bans in a restricted state, you're stuck with 3 rounds in a standard 10 round mag.

Since they cost less than a standard Colt aluminum mag I use them in both my .458 SOCOM and my .450 Bushmaster just to avoid hassles from FUDS at the range.
 
DarkJoker33 said:
Didn't take it that way. All good 👍.
I guess, what I'm looking for , is an all rounder ,
Something that's accurate at distance (distance unknown)
Something that's loadable into a standard gi mag
Readily available/kinda common
Doesn't cost an arm and a leg
Which all this brought me to the Grendel.
It's just not a Readily available round.
Click to expand...
well, again, there are no all-rounders. each caliber has a specific purpose and optimal in specific conditions, otherwise it would not have to exist.
if there was a unique best most efficient all rounder - then no other calibers would be made, ever.

by all means, you can make yourself a 6.5Grendel upper, it will go on the same lower you already have, why not. more the merrier. a .22lr upper is also fun.
just give it some time and you will form your own interests that will dictate the path of future acquisitions.
meanwhile stock up on CMP 68gr .223 ammo - it is great for what you already have.
 
cathouse01 said:
Yes, but look at who is offering the mag : CA Legal Mags. It’s strictly for restricted states. If you have a standard follower in your 10 round .450 Bushmaster/.458 SOCOM/.50 Beowulf in a restricted state they will consider it a 30 round STANAG. Unless you are using pre-ban mags, you’ll be in trouble with the powers that be. The dedicated “fat round” follower lets you have post-ban 10 round mags for these rounds. If you try to put .223/5.56 rounds in a mag with this follower they will just pop right out since the follower centers the round between the feed lips. Otherwise , if you’re using post-bans in a restricted state, you're stuck with 3 rounds in a standard 10 round mag.

Since they cost less than a standard Colt aluminum mag I use them in both my .458 SOCOM and my .450 Bushmaster just to avoid hassles from FUDS at the range.
Click to expand...
I did know that. I bought 10 D&H 10rounders. Because it’s a hassle for preban. I was just pointing it out.
 
cathouse01 said:
Yes, but look at who is offering the mag : CA Legal Mags. It’s strictly for restricted states. If you have a standard follower in your 10 round .450 Bushmaster/.458 SOCOM/.50 Beowulf in a restricted state they will consider it a 30 round STANAG. Unless you are using pre-ban mags, you’ll be in trouble with the powers that be. The dedicated “fat round” follower lets you have post-ban 10 round mags for these rounds. If you try to put .223/5.56 rounds in a mag with this follower they will just pop right out since the follower centers the round between the feed lips. Otherwise , if you’re using post-bans in a restricted state, you're stuck with 3 rounds in a standard 10 round mag.

Since they cost less than a standard Colt aluminum mag I use them in both my .458 SOCOM and my .450 Bushmaster just to avoid hassles from FUDS at the range.
Click to expand...
See, info like this is good and needs to be known more.

I bought a pack of 6.5 Grendel to confirm fitment in a g.i mag.
It's seems to be OK. It would be more ok with feed lip manipulation
 
paul73 said:
well, again, there are no all-rounders. each caliber has a specific purpose and optimal in specific conditions, otherwise it would not have to exist.
if there was a unique best most efficient all rounder - then no other calibers would be made, ever.

by all means, you can make yourself a 6.5Grendel upper, it will go on the same lower you already have, why not. more the merrier. a .22lr upper is also fun.
just give it some time and you will form your own interests that will dictate the path of future acquisitions.
meanwhile stock up on CMP 68gr .223 ammo - it is great for what you already have.
Click to expand...
I have the cmmg kit.
I plan to use it in my first AR with the echo sport.

Come on, you don't think companies make new cartridges just to make more money?
That's a little naive
 

MFSP101 said:
I did know that. I bought 10 D&H 10rounders. Because it’s a hassle for preban. I was just pointing it out.
Click to expand...
I bought a few Lancer dedicate 458 mags when I got into this caliber, then I just bought a bunch of followers from Tromix and stuck them in some pre-pan 30 rounders and they work flawlessly. The Lancer mags are excellent but spendy!
 
1903Collector said:
I bought a few Lancer dedicate 458 mags when I got into this caliber, then I just bought a bunch of followers from Tromix and stuck them in some pre-pan 30 rounders and they work flawlessly. The Lancer mags are excellent but spendy!
Click to expand...
I’ve used my standard 30 round pre-bans for both .458 SOCOM and .450 Bushmaster and they do work, even without the special follower. But I did get some FTF on the last round with .450 Bushmaster. The centering follower eliminates that. What I like about the “dedicated” .458 SOCOM mags is the stupid big markings declaring them 10 rounders.
458socomcalegalmags.png
 
Mesatchornug said:
shot placement is key...and if you use a 22 on a moose you had best be incredibly close and incredibly accurate; meanwhile a 223 will leave nothing of your chipmunk.

choose the right cartridge for the target you're shooting at.
Click to expand...
5pntyc.jpg
 
DarkJoker33 said:
Didn't take it that way. All good 👍.
I guess, what I'm looking for , is an all rounder ,

Something that's accurate at distance (distance unknown)

Something that's loadable into a standard gi mag

Readily available/kinda common

Doesn't cost an arm and a leg

Which all this brought me to the Grendel.
It's just not a Readily available round.
Click to expand...
You might be asking too much of a round that is restricted to the .223/5.56x45 OAL so that it can fit in a STANAG mag. In my mind what you are describing is a .308/7.62x51. But that would require you to move to an AR-10/LR-308 platform using SR-25 pattern magazines. From what I’ve read, the 6.5 Grendel is probably as close as you can get to the .308 in a general purpose AR-15 caliber. Here is a good writeup comparing the two.
thebiggamehuntingblog.com

6.5 Grendel vs 308: Everything You Need To Know

Want a high performing cartridge to use in an AR platform and can't decide between the 6.5 Grendel vs 308 Winchester? The best choice is
thebiggamehuntingblog.com thebiggamehuntingblog.com
 

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