9mm Dillon resize/decap die issue. UPDATE POST 19: 10/8. DILLON CRIMP DIE ISSUE

[Rate_of_Twist]

I gave up on the Lee FCD a long time ago. I found that it was reducing the diameter of my loaded rounds to the point that the bullets were also reduced in diameter. Accuracy suffered. Precision, the MFR of the coated bullets I was using, strongly advises against the use of the FCD. As near as I can tell, the FCD is more of a cosmetic application, making the round look nice and smooth.

I am loading a lot of 9mm using Dillon dies in my 1050 with no problems except brass accumulation at the base of well used cases. This problem is difficult to deal with as most dies, including the Lee FCD, do not resize the lowest portion of the case. Without a specially modified die to remove this "belt" at the base of the case, such brass is useless.

PS Closely examining photo #1 of the bad round prior to its redemption at the hands of the Lee FCD, I see too much flare at the case mouth, i.e. not enough taper crimp. Dialing in a little more crimp with the Dillon die might have solved the problem.

Say I showed up at your house with a special case gage that was a slightly smaller version of yours. Then I took one of your bad rounds, forced it into my gage with a vise, popped it out with a dowel, handed it to you, and said, "Try it now".

If it fit your gage would you call it a success and shoot it anyway, or would you think, "No way! You just took a bad round and made it fit my gage without fixing it!"

It might sound preposterous, but it's exactly what you've been doing.

So, what do I go by? You are saying ( I think ) that because I'm using a lee die instead of the dillon die I am undersizing the brass to make it fit???

It was recommend that the case mouth / crimp on my 9mm reloads is .376. Is this NOT correct?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I don't know why your rounds won't fit in the gage. It could be the crimp, brass, bullets, or sizing die (or some combination of these).

The Lee Factory Crimp die has a sizing ring that resizes the finished round so that it will fit in the case gage. It doesn't correct the problem that caused the round to be oversized to begin with, it just squashes the round so it will fit in the gage. If you're OK with this, then you're all set. They'll probably shoot fine and be perfectly safe. If this wasn't true, the FCD wouldn't be so popular.

What me and Gammon (I think) are saying is that you are masking instead of fixing a problem. Much of the time, masking is good enough, but if you have other trouble with the rounds later on, you might still need to find the root cause.

Here's an example. It just so happens that this is going to part of a "Mailbag" column that I'm passing in to GOAL later today for inclusion in this month's GOAL News. You guys will get a preview:

I’ve been loading my own cast bullets for .45 ACP for years. I picked up a new handgun and found that some of my rounds loaded with these bullets wouldn’t chamber in it. Most of the brass on the non-chambering rounds had a Federal headstamp. On the advice of another reloader I picked up a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Now all my rounds chamber OK, but for the first time, I’ve started to experience leading in the barrel. I made the bullets the same way as always. What could be causing this?

The two most common causes for barrel leading with cast bullets are that they’re too small or too hard. Since your alloy hasn’t changed, it’s probably that the bullets have become too small. Here’s how this can happen:

The Lee Factory Crimp die is different than other crimp dies in that in addition to crimping, it also resizes any oversized finished rounds from the outside. If the bullet is large enough and/or the brass is thick enough, the die can actually reduce the diameter of the bullet. During loading, you probably noticed that some rounds required more force to run through the Factory Crimp die than others. The ones that needed a little extra force were oversized, and the die squeezed them down from the outside. When they’re squeezed like that, something has to get smaller. You’re not going to reduce the thickness of the case (brass is harder than lead), therefore the bullet is made smaller. It doesn’t take much – a few thousandths of an inch can mean the difference between a clean barrel and a leaded one.

As to why this happens with some rounds and not others, I did a quick check of .45 ACP cases by using a tube micrometer to measure the wall thickness of ten cases each of a variety of headstamps. Most brands (Winchester, Independence, S&B, and R-P) measured 0.010” thick. Federal brass was thicker – measuring 0.012” on average (which was second only to AMERC’s 0.014”). The thicker-than-normal case walls would explain why you had trouble chambering the rounds loaded with Federal brass and not the other headstamps. It would also explain the leading, because the Factory Crimp Die reduced the diameter of the bullets loaded in the Federal brass. Incidentally, the thinnest brass (at 0.008”) was WCC (military) brass from the 1960’s. This sort of dispels the Internet myth that all military brass is thicker than commercial brass.

The solution to your problem is to revert to the ‘standard’ crimping die, and sort out the Federal brass for use with jacketed bullets only.

Just for the record, the person that asked the question was successful when he applied my recommended solution.

 

[Supermoto]

Do some of the rounds feel more difficult to resize?
I have one open gun that blows out the base of the case more than the others. You can feel it when resizing. Makes a line near the base

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

Do some of the rounds feel more difficult to resize?
I have one open gun that blows out the base of the case more than the others. You can feel it when resizing. Makes a line near the base

This... but it has happened with my glock and 1911 9mm factory once fire brass as well... to me it looks like the Dillon sizing die does not go for enough down to resize the base and the Dillon crimp die comes nowhere close even if over crimping

 

[highlander]

When I had this problem I used a 30 Mauser die to resize bloated cases. 30 Mauser dies are few thuosandths smaller in diameter and that solved any bulging brass problems that I had encountered

 

[EddieCoyle]

This... but it has happened with my glock and 1911 9mm factory once fire brass as well... to me it looks like the Dillon sizing die does not go for enough down to resize the base and the Dillon crimp die comes nowhere close even if over crimping

Try an Evolution Gun Works (EGW) 'undersized' sizing die. It has a smaller chamfer at the bottom so it sizes farther down the case.

 

[Gammon]

Try an Evolution Gun Works (EGW) 'undersized' sizing die. It has a smaller chamfer at the bottom so it sizes farther down the case.

Nice post on the Lee FCD. I have found that the EGW die works well on 40 brass, even cases that have been fired in a Glock, once. Cases that have been abused more than once will have a small belt at the base, even with the EGW die. I have had less success with the EGW die in 9mm.

Even with the EGW die, brass builds up at the base of cases that have been fired many times. Perhaps I am asking too much of the die, but brass flow and resizing are leaving that infamous "belt" at the base.
The only solution I have found is to use a resizing die that goes all the way to the base of the case. A die with the flare completely removed.

This solution is complicated because unsized cases won't reliably enter a die with no flare. I use two resizing dies in my 1050. The first is a standard Dillon 9mm die in its customary location at position #1. The second resizing die with the flare completely removed is placed in position #2 normally used for primer pocket swaging. The second die places enough pressure on the case to hold it down so the primer pocket swager still works.

This system works pretty well. Die #1 reduces the diameter of the fired case so that it will reliably enter die #2 which completely sizes the case. Using my beat up practice brass this set up will produce loaded rounds that will fit in a case gauge about 80% of the time and is pretty much 100% reliable in my CZ. The only downside is increased effort on the operating arm.

I am seriously considering the "final solution" a Case Pro case roller. This will mean an extra step (case rolling) but it can be done very quickly if the machine is set up with a case feeder. The purchase price of $650 is what's holding me back.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

OK, so reading all this says it is probably not a crimp die issue, but more or less the sizing operation... while the Dillon die may not be out of spec it may not size enough of the brass to reshape it enough for proper function...

If that is the case than I wonder why as I previously stated that no matter how much brass I resize and check none of them fail but when a loaded round is completed I have a 5%-10% failure rate. I had addressed this same question when I initially setup the press as I was surprised at how much the resizing die didn't actually resize of the case ( the bottom 3/16")

Is there anything "wrong" with using the FCD as a final sizing solution? If I am not getting leading and good accuracy is there something "wrong" with correcting the final case size in the last stage?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I am seriously considering the "final solution" a Case Pro case roller. This will mean an extra step (case rolling) but it can be done very quickly if the machine is set up with a case feeder. The purchase price of $650 is what's holding me back.

If it's just .40 that you're doing, what about one of the Redding push-through G-RX dies. It's still an extra step, but you can do it with your existing equipment, and you wouldn't need to do it every time.

Redding G-RX Base Sizing Die Kit 40 S&W 357 Sig 10mm Auto

 

[Supermoto]

If it's just .40 that you're doing, what about one of the Redding push-through G-RX dies. It's still an extra step, but you can do it with your existing equipment, and you wouldn't need to do it every time.

Redding G-RX Base Sizing Die Kit 40 S&W 357 Sig 10mm Auto

I used this when I shot a tanfo. It worked well and made the cases stack neatly in the mag which was very important in the tanfo..Then I got a STI, since the mags were not as sensitive. I don't use it anymore

 

[Gammon]

If it's just .40 that you're doing, what about one of the Redding push-through G-RX dies. It's still an extra step, but you can do it with your existing equipment, and you wouldn't need to do it every time.

Redding G-RX Base Sizing Die Kit 40 S&W 357 Sig 10mm Auto

I found early on that the EGW "undersized" die worked just fine in 40, so I never found a use for the Redding push through die that I bought. My problem is abused 9mm cases. Brass flow seems to be a bigger problem with the 9mm cases.

I actually bought a push through sizer for 9mm brass from Magma Engineering. The machine was well built and priced right at $325. Too bad it didn't work. The die swaged the excess brass on the case rim into the extractor groove making the brass impossible to load as It would no longer fit the shell plate of my 1050. The nice folks at Magma refunded my money when I returned the machine.

 

[eisenhow]

I am seriously considering the "final solution" a Case Pro case roller. This will mean an extra step (case rolling) but it can be done very quickly if the machine is set up with a case feeder. The purchase price of $650 is what's holding me back.

I finally went this route. I use it for 40 to take care of the fat bottomed glocked brass. For 9mm it cleans up the rim. I've got a lot of 9mm range brass that had extractor nicks that would cause them to fail case gauge. If you want one new plan on a 6+ month wait

This solution is complicated because unsized cases won't reliably enter a die with no flare. I use two resizing dies in my 1050. The first is a standard Dillon 9mm die in its customary location at position #1. The second resizing die with the flare completely removed is placed in position #2 normally used for primer pocket swaging. The second die places enough pressure on the case to hold it down so the primer pocket swager still works.

This system works pretty well. Die #1 reduces the diameter of the fired case so that it will reliably enter die #2 which completely sizes the case. Using my beat up practice brass this set up will produce loaded rounds that will fit in a case gauge about 80% of the time and is pretty much 100% reliable in my CZ. The only downside is increased effort on the operating arm.

Even with the case pro I use a similar two sizing die setup on my 650. Standard Dillon sizing die in station #1. U-die in station #2 and the belling/powder drop in station #3. Almost zero case gauge failures now.

 

[ruebarb]

A year later, any more comments on this issue. I have 1% failure as described in this thread, would like to not have to gauge every round I make.

 

[swampy]

I use the Lee FCD on all SA handgun calibers. I also found out that the .380ACP FCD combined with the bulge buster kit fixes .223 and 5.56 brass that won't fit the shell holder on my Lee priming tool and or pro 1000 shell plate. I lube and punch the rifle cases through and shazaam, they slide into both shell holders like brand new brass. It also fixes the finished .223 rounds that fail to fire because the firing pin doesn't hit the primer hard enough or at all.

 

[asp]

A year later, any more comments on this issue. I have 1% failure as described in this thread, would like to not have to gauge every round I make.

Did you try the suggested remedy in post #32?

 

[ruebarb]

Did you try the suggested remedy in post #32?

Thanks, I saw it, squishing the round at the end is a patch vs a solution, plus little feedback from those who have completely corrected this problem. The egw sizer for example would be a fix, not much on that either.

 

[asp]

Right, so did you try sorting for problem brass?

 

[ruebarb]

Right, so did you try sorting for problem brass?

Yes, it is mostly federal, but not always. This is a common issue in range brass. Not looking to sort out headstamps, I can gauge 1000 rounds quicker than sorting brass. Looking to minimize efforts. Really looking for EGW feedback, no empty stations on my 1050, I can swap a sizing die for another with ease.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Yes, it is mostly federal, but not always. This is a common issue in range brass. Not looking to sort out headstamps, I can gauge 1000 rounds quicker than sorting brass. Looking to minimize efforts. Really looking for EGW feedback, no empty stations on my 1050, I can swap a sizing die for another with ease.

How are the rims on the ones that won't gage?

 

[richc]

Had the same problem and a friend suggested Lee 9mm Luger Full Length Sizing die. Not a problem since.

 

[asp]

At this point, I would find some that you know fail, color the brass with a sharpie and put it into the gauge. Where the sharpie rubs off will point to one problem or another. If it rubs off around the case mouth it could be that the case mouths are thick or bullets large. If it rubs off near the base it's more likely a sizing die issue + Glocked brass.

 

[ruebarb]

I seated my Dillon sizer close as possible, with a feeler gauge I just clear 0.0025" under the die.

I just ran 1000 rounds of range brass, 2 bad rims, 9 Glock bulge. I ran the 9 through the Lee FCD, it didn't get low enough, all 9 still fail my Dillon gauge. I am not sure how all these others claim the lee FCD fix this issue, didn't do much, felt a few reshape a bit, ultimately still fail.

The EGW just came back in stock, it is on the way. I'll report back when I start using that.

 

[Gammon]

The Lee FCD is designed to reduce the bulge in the loaded case caused by the bullet. It is usually a cosmetic fix for those who can't stand the sight of the bulge. These "bulged" rounds feed just fine in my guns. This die does not reach the base of the case where the Glock bulge is. Only the Lee or EGW undersized die can get low enough on the case to address this problem, but don't get your hopes up as long as you are using range brass.

I have found that the undersized die will work just fine on a case that has been fired once in a Glock. Cases that have been more than once are more than this die can handle, i.e. you will still have excess brass at the base of the case. Range brass will most likely be a mix of once fired and also "used and abused" cases. You have to be reasonable in your expectations. As long as you use a mix of brass, you will get mixed results; many cases will fail your gauge.

I suggest that you cull your brass and separate the once fired good stuff from the rest. Save the good stuff for your match ammo and you will find that most of this brass will produce loaded rounds that will pass the gauge test. During this procedure you will also discover brass that will not work despite the fact that is only once fired (I refuse to use S&B brass, this stuff is junk). This is a learning process as range brass varies greatly from one case to another. Range brass is cheap (free) but must be culled to find the cases that will suit your purposes.

Using the mix of range brass common at local clubs and expecting quality ammo is simply unrealistic. Remember, you are using other shooter's leavings; the good stuff is once fired brass left by rich folks who don't reload and the bad stuff is useless, blown out cases left by IPSC major nine shooters. Its up to you to sort this stuff out. The idea is to solve the problem before you start to load this brass, not after.

 

[ruebarb]

Thanks for the response. That answers what the LEE FCD was supposed to do, vs the bad info posted on many forums.

I understand sorting out range brass would help, but it takes more time than gauging 1k in 20 min, vs reading that many head stamps.

The EGW will be here by the weekend, I'll run another 1k rounds and post back how it effects random range brass.

I have plenty of once fired WCC brass for quality ammo, use it for my carry HPs. The seat and crimp have smaller variences vs mixed range brass and they always gauge.

Just trying to minimize material loss and time

 

[Rugerfan]

Lee does make a full length sizing adapter for the FCD. You take part of the die out and drive the brass all the way through it and out the top.

Poke around on their website and you will find it.

 

[Gammon]

Thanks for the response. That answers what the LEE FCD was supposed to do, vs the bad info posted on many forums.

I understand sorting out range brass would help, but it takes more time than gauging 1k in 20 min, vs reading that many head stamps.

The EGW will be here by the weekend, I'll run another 1k rounds and post back how it effects random range brass.

I have plenty of once fired WCC brass for quality ammo, use it for my carry HPs. The seat and crimp have smaller variences vs mixed range brass and they always gauge.

Just trying to minimize material loss and time

I have been reloading for a long time and have found that is ALWAYS better to cull your brass before you reload it. Also I think it is a bad idea to load your your carry ammo.

 

[ruebarb]

I just got the EGW U die. EPIC FAIL!!!! On super 1050

Using EGW 750 rounds of range brass 6 bad rims, 30 bad cases.
Using Dillion 1000 rounds of range brass, 2 bad rims, 9 bad cases

Test stopped at 750 rounds when my shell plate BROKE with only ~7k rounds through it, tore the lip off the top of the plate.

Effort: Twice as hard to size, need 2 hands to lift off of alot of cases.
Speed: Due to effort speed was reduced, three times as long
Complications; Due to excessive effort, many mis-feed cases, mis feed mr bullets, and lots of spilt powder, this added lots more time.
Die Issue: De-priming does not remove all primers, even with the proper adjustment, if too much force was required, even with extreme tightening, it would get pushed up into the die.

The Lee die is a POS, staaaayy away.

 

[eisenhow]

I just got the EGW U die. EPIC FAIL!!!! On super 1050

....

The Lee die is a POS, staaaayy away.

Do you lube your cases? If not give it a try. A little goes a LONG way and makes things much smoother

I don't have a 1050, but on my 650 I size and deprime/prime #1, my Lee U-die (w/o depriming pin) in #2, bell & drop powder in #3, set in #4 and crimp in #5. I'm not sure if you can setup the 1050 to have two sizing dies.

 

[ruebarb]

Thanks. I have no empty stations, but regardless, the EGW performed over 3 times worse than the Dillon sizing die. The die failed to perform better than the Dillon in every aspect when swapping one for one.

If anyone is interested I have a used EGW U die with 3 extra de-primming pins for sale. $30 shipped.

 

[Supermoto]

100k+ rounds with U-dies. No issues