8mm ammo and Mauser types

[SKS Ray]

I've been stocking up on ammo lately, all surplus. I just have this impending doom feeling that before long we'll be S.O.L. for places to get spam cans of military ammo from. [sad2]
Aside from that i've been getting a little more particular with certain ammo types in my milsurp rifles. Diferences in Hungarian yellow tip 7.62x54 and Czech silver tip 7.62x54 in diferent Mosin Nagants I have, which rifle groups better with which ammo, etc. Some days i'll take 3 diferent Mauser type rifles (K98, M48, Turk, etc.) and shoot 8mm Romanian through all of them just to see what rifle it works best in. I know I should be reloading for diferent and better results, and thats coming soon, but for now i'm getting a feel for diferent ammo types. I figure when I find one that works best, say Hungarian yellow tip ammo in my 91/30 sniper just for an example, I can look up info for that certain round like bullet weight, etc. and try and duplicate it myself in reloading. Its tedious and pretty much trial and error right now because i'm still learning about diferent weights and what diferent rifles prefer.
Which brings me to my original topic... Here is a quote from a reply to a post I made about ammo on another forum.
<< The Romanian bullet is 154 gr SP which shoots best in long rifles (Turks, 98/22, GEW 98, etc.). The other Yugo 8mm types are 196 gr SPBT bullets which tend to shoot better in the shorter rifles with 24" barrels (k98k, VZ-24, M48, etc.). There will be exceptions of course but these are the bullet weights these rifles as listed were designed for. >>
Now this sounds logical to me, but its something one person posted. I've even heard shooting in diferent regions of the country will have an effect on accuracy due to elevation diferences.
Does anyone here from this area have any input on diferent ammo types, bullet weights, preferences they have for a certain ammo, etc. when it comes to shooting milsurp ammo in milsurp rifles?

 

[jhrosier]

Notes on bullet selection for milsurp rifles

Does anyone here from this area have any input on diferent ammo types, bullet weights, preferences they have for a certain ammo, etc. when it comes to shooting milsurp ammo in milsurp rifles?

Assuming that you'll be reloading, sooner or later, here's some notes on bullet selection.

This is a question that entire books could and have been written about.
I won't pretend that all of the answers will be in a few sentences, but here are some ideas to get you started.
Bullet selection will be influenced by the following factors:

1. Rifling rate of twist:
The rate of rifling twist, in inches per full revolution, was selected to stabilize the bullet which was in common use when the rifle was originally manufactured. The rate of twist determines the length, and thus indirectly, the weight of the bullet that will give best accuracy. Bullets which are lighter than normal, for the barrel, will usually give reasonable accuracy, especially if they are loaded to approximately duplicate the velocity of the heavier bullet. Bullets which are significantly heavier than the rate of twist will stabilize may have poor accuracy. You can measure the twist of your barrel by pushing a cleaning rod with a tight patch an inch from the chamber. Mark the orientation of the rod with a tape "flag", flush with the muzzle. Carefully withdraw the cleaning rod until it has made a full turn and then measure from the muzzle to the flag.

When you have determined the twist, you can refer to "Greenhill's Formula" to find the correct LENGTH of bullet that will perform best. Greenhill's Formula is :

L = 150 * ( D^2 /T )

Where L = bullet length in inches
D = bullet diameter in inches
T = twist rate of rifling in inches

For a more complete explanation of Greenhill's Formula, see: http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIIB6.html

It is worth mentioning that many countries have switched from heavier to lighter, or from lighter to heavier bullets, for tactical purposes. What's currently in the milsurp "pipe" may not be the best or only choice of bullet weights.

2. Bore diameter:
Military rifle barrels can vary widely in bore size. The Lee-Enfield and Mosin Nagant rifles are the most common examples if this phenomenon. Mosin barrels can range from .308" to .315" diameter.
Because the bullet needs to fit the bore for best accuracy, actual bore size can't be ignored.
The only effective way to determine the actual bore size is to push a soft lead slug through a well-oiled bore and measure it with a micrometer. The correct sized jacketed bullet will be either exactly bore size or 0.0005" ( one half thousandth inch ) larger. Smaller bullets will encourage stripping or blow-by, while larger bullets could raise pressures to dangerous levels.
The bullet, when seated in the cartridge case, must still fit in the existing chamber. This may not be possible if the bore is greatly oversized. Most milsurp rifles wouldn't warrant the expense of repairing an oversized bore by rebarreling and it would decrease the collector's value of the gun. It would be best to trade out or hang such a rifle up for display only.

3. Chamber throat length (leade):
The length of the chamber throat must be long enough to receive the bullet that you select, at a reasonable seating depth. This issue has become more common as people attempt to load the 7.5X55mm Swiss cartridge for the K31 rifle. The K31's have painfully short throats and require a spire pointed "bore rider" style bullet for best accuracy and proper functioning.
With most other rifles, this isn't a problem if you don't try to use excessively heavy or very blunt round nose bullets.
Best accuracy usually occurs, however, when the bullet is seated to very close, but not touching the rifling. This may not be possible with very short bullets and very long ones may need to be seated with the base well below the case neck, which can lead to other problems.

4. Existing (iron) sights:
The sights on the military rifle are typically regulated for a very specific bullet weight, shape, and velocity. The only exception, that I am aware of, is the Swedish AG42B which has a rear sight cam that can be set for either light or heavy ball ammo.
Some folks replace the front sight, usually with a higher one, to bring the gun on target at 100 or 200 yards. Be aware that the gun will probably not shoot to point of aim at longer ranges if the ammo doesn't match ballistically, the load that the rear sight was regulated for.
I have had good results, in many rifles, by loading a lighter bullet of the same basic shape, to reasonably match the velocity of the original heavier bullet loading. I have not tried shooting these loads beyond 200 yards. At short range, the accuracy is usually quite acceptable and the lighter recoil is better for long range sessions and new shooters.

5. Autoloaders:
Be really, really, really careful! Gas operated autoloaders require a certain minimum and maximum pressure to occur as the base of the bullet passes the gas port. A damaged gun or an injured shooter / bystander can easily result from selecting the wrong components.

 

[Nickle]

At current prices, it's hard to justify loading 7.62x54R or 7.92 Mauser. You can buy MILSurp cheaper than you can reload it, and that's assuming the brass is already paid for. 7.92 is a fixed supply, it's not used by any serious army anymore. 7.62x54R, on the other hand, is still used, and is still made for military use. Both are readily available, and will be for quite some time.

Yes, I load 7.62x54R, but I rarely if ever use that ammo in my Mosin Nagants. It gets used in the RomAK 3.

As far as twist goes, I've found the RomAK 3 to hate anything heavier than 150 gr bullets. It shoots pulled M80 Ball (146 gr) bullets better than Sierra 168 gr MatchKings. My hunting ammo for this gun uses 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips.

 

[BigBill]

I figure that any brand new ammo that is under $10 a box is worth buying right now too as long as its boxer primed.(Priv-Partizan)
I think that buying new brass cases is the way to go too.
Besides stocking up on surplus ammo too. I think now is the time to plan for the future.
I did buy up a lot of new russian barnaul 7,52x54r soft point ammo too for $4 or $5 a box too.

We can also stock up on pulled or new military FMJ bullets too. I think its good to have some bullets decent enough for cheap plinkin too if surplus can't be found its good to have another direction in place already.