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80% lowers with new CT AWB
- Thread starter Kyarno
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Too early to know anything right now. For now, my advice would be to stay off the radar and stand by.
dcmdon
NES Member
Its not too early to know.
An 80% lower is not a firearm. Period.
You can get one. You can finish it into a completed lower. You can then build into a gun in compliance with the NEW law.
In effect doing an 80% lower gets you nothing, other than the ability to lie about when you received it. If you were that kind of person, you could say that you got it prior to 4/4/13. That would allow you to register it as an AW and build it into a traditional post-ban configuration. If my intention was to falsify the existence of that lower as a firearm, I'd certainly not buy one from someone over the internet where you would leave all kinds of evidence as to the commercial transaction.
However, if you paid cash for it in a private transaction, you would be pretty clean. Particularly if you picked it up out of state.
If you intend to follow the law, doing an 80% lower gets you nothing.
You make your choices you take your chances. If I was younger without children who count on me to be their father, or older with grown children, I might try to finesse things. But at this point in my life, I need to be 110% legal in all aspects. Besides. I already have more AR lowers than I need or even want. There's a part of me that can't wait to fill out the registration form.
Why? Because I noticed that in the law is a the phrase "any part or assembly of parts that can be used to convert a firearm into an assault weapon is an assault weapon". So my intention is to register EVERY magazine release button, every lower parts kit, every A2 flash hider, every pre-ban upper, every handguard, every pistol grip, etc. You get my point. My goal is to register over 100 Assault weapons in my name. Actually, my goal is to get every gun owner in CT to do the same thing. If they anticipate registering 100,000 AWs, lets burry them with 5,000,000 registrations.
As you see, at this point in my life, its all about working WITHIN the law. But I'll do what I can.
Don
dcmdon
NES Member
One other thing. People seem to think you can't buy an AR lower now. Thats absolutely wrong.
I've got a few extra I'll sell you. I've got them listed in the Classifieds. I'll still sell them to you.
The difference between yesterday and today is that now you don't have any choice. It must be built into a firearm in compliancw with the new "zero feature" ban.
If you bought it yesterday, you had a choice, build it into a standard post ban weapon and register it. Or build it into a CA style firearm and not register it.
For what its worth, this is the best looking zero feature AR I've seen:
I've got a few extra I'll sell you. I've got them listed in the Classifieds. I'll still sell them to you.
The difference between yesterday and today is that now you don't have any choice. It must be built into a firearm in compliancw with the new "zero feature" ban.
If you bought it yesterday, you had a choice, build it into a standard post ban weapon and register it. Or build it into a CA style firearm and not register it.
For what its worth, this is the best looking zero feature AR I've seen:
One other thing. People seem to think you can't buy an AR lower now. Thats absolutely wrong.
I've got a few extra I'll sell you. I've got them listed in the Classifieds. I'll still sell them to you.
The difference between yesterday and today is that now you don't have any choice. It must be built into a firearm in compliancw with the new "zero feature" ban.
If you bought it yesterday, you had a choice, build it into a standard post ban weapon and register it. Or build it into a CA style firearm and not register it.
For what its worth, this is the best looking zero feature AR I've seen:
they might call this one a thumbhole stock?
2. any grip of the weapon, including a pistol grip, thumbhole stock, or other stock that would allow an individual to grip the weapon, resulting in any finger on the trigger hand in addition to the trigger finger being directly below any portion of the action of the weapon when firing;
Don, I would never do any such thing. As with all of us here, we all live within the laws, not above them.
As an aside, are you still planning on being in Thompson on Sunday? I'd love to pick your brain on a few questions I haven't been able to ask of my FFL in person.
As an aside, are you still planning on being in Thompson on Sunday? I'd love to pick your brain on a few questions I haven't been able to ask of my FFL in person.
dcmdon
NES Member
Thank you.
Good answer. So unless the 1st Amendment has been repealed, there is nothing illegal about discussing what one MIGHT do to circumvent the new law. Its still an interesting exercise.
For what its worth. You could also still buy a lower from someone you trust and pre-date the receipt. No other paperwork necessary. Secondary transfers for anything other than handguns, done prior to noon today did not require any background checks. So it would just be between you and the seller as to the actual date of the transfer. Of course you would be breaking the law. You could of course take solace in the knowledge that you were not acting unethically. Since they've taken the Second Amendment away from me, I'm going to have to fully exercise my right to free speech. The last time I checked, there was nothing criminal about giving advice on how circumvent a law.
I'm going to be in Thompson. But I'm going to be pretty busy with a pistol class. Maybe you can meet us after the class is done. We're probably going to go out for a couple of drinks afterwords. You have my email. Shoot me something with your mobile phone number.
Don
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June4th
NES Member
Serious question: if this were the case, then why there have been stories of ATF entrapment of talking to people at gun shows about full-auto conversions etc.? My only reference came from the book of 'Unintended Consequences', but I figured where there is smoke, there's fire.
dcmdon
NES Member
I'm not sure what you are asking.
Until '86 you could legally do a full auto conversion as long as you paid your $200 tax and filed your paperwork. After '86, no more MGs could be made. Because the registry existed BEFORE the ban on manufacture of new MGs (National Firearms Act of 1934), you could not "finesse" the date of a transfer since any MG was already in the registry prior to the ban.
Until '86 you could legally do a full auto conversion as long as you paid your $200 tax and filed your paperwork. After '86, no more MGs could be made. Because the registry existed BEFORE the ban on manufacture of new MGs (National Firearms Act of 1934), you could not "finesse" the date of a transfer since any MG was already in the registry prior to the ban.
June4th
NES Member
The situation I described, is that ATF would send agents to gun shows, and asking questions about illegal conversion of converting semi to full auto, or implying illegal intent of such. Later they would use recording of such conversation as 'proof' that said person was part of conspiracy to commit a felony. I haven't done research if there has been any prosecution of such scenarios, but I don't think such tactics are below the dignity of BATFE.
dcmdon
NES Member
1) Thats why I said SOMEONE YOU TRUST.
2) BATFE enforces federal law. Not state law. If a friend of your were to sell you a fully featured AR tomorrow. The ATF doesn't care. That transfer is not in violation of federal law. So they really, truly don't care. The full auto conversion stuff was in violation of federal law. Big difference. Also, I'd estimate that 90% of ATF's efforts are focused on licensees. They really don't concern themselves with secondary sales of non-nfa items. So its up to the state to prosecute that agenda. How prepared do you think the DPS or depseeydoodle or whatever they are called now, is to deal with this? Not very. They shut down the anti gun running unit at Brainerd airport a few years ago. They're all gone.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen. But if one were to effect a transfer in the next few days with someone you knew, there would be no risk. How could there be? I'm only speculating openly because I'd never do anything like that. (Then I'd STFU). I guess this is my little contribution to the civil disobedience that I hope will come of this. I'm not suggesting anyone do this. I'm just giving you advice on how not to get caught if you do choose to do it.
I have to follow the law. I have 2 little girls depending on me. So I'll simply disseminate information that may help others.
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It's a good thing we are all outstandingly good citizens -- imagine if we were the "bad guys"?
Don, I didn't want to infringe on your class, but I would be more than willing to buy you a couple drinks afterwords. Sending you an email now with my contact info.
Don, I didn't want to infringe on your class, but I would be more than willing to buy you a couple drinks afterwords. Sending you an email now with my contact info.
Short of going above and beyond and taking a photo of your complete milled out 80% lower (making it an actual lower) with a dated newspaper, how is CT going to prove it was built after the ban....?
dcmdon
NES Member
Correct. But what does it get you?
If you want to otherwise follow the law, you will still need to register it.
So it gets you nothing over driving to a gun show in NH or VT and just buying a lower over the next few months.
Other than the satisfaction of making it. In fact, the only reason to ever get an 80% lower is for the satisfaction of doing the work.
Its no more "invisible". Unless you plan to leave it behind at a crime scene.
Its also no less expensive.
Don
dcmdon
NES Member
Uppers are not regulated. You can buy any kind any time. If you want a pre-ban upper and anyone gives you any pushback, tell them you have a machinegun. MGs can have any combination of features or bbl lengths you want.
Its not against the law to lie to a vendor.
It is of course up to you to be sure that what you are buying is legal. If I were buying an upper now for a lower that I currently owned, I'd buy a pre-ban upper. There is still some confusion if current "post ban" guns will be able to be configured to pre-ban configuration if you register them. I'd prepare for that.
If it proves not to be the case, chop off the lug and have someone pin a brake on it for $50.
Don
Its not against the law to lie to a vendor.
It is of course up to you to be sure that what you are buying is legal. If I were buying an upper now for a lower that I currently owned, I'd buy a pre-ban upper. There is still some confusion if current "post ban" guns will be able to be configured to pre-ban configuration if you register them. I'd prepare for that.
If it proves not to be the case, chop off the lug and have someone pin a brake on it for $50.
Don
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Ok I just wasn't sure cause don't they want us in CT to register all parts that can make up an AW . I have a PWS MK114 got it 2 years ago. I can get a complet upper (pre-ban) to use on it now no problem your saying. I really hope this AWB gets stoped in courts I really do thx's again.
dcmdon
NES Member
If the upper is attached to a lower and you register then its all part of the same AW that you registered. They can't prevent you from purchasing replacement parts for a registered AW even though technically even a post ban upper is now an AW. They DO NOT want to have to register all of the parts that can make an AW. It would be a nightmare for them. I plan to do everything I can to create that nightmare .
What they are trying to do is lay the groundwork for a "Constructive Intent" prosecution if they ever find someone with essentially a disassembled AW.
The bad and good thing about these kinds of rushed statutes (They skipped the standard comment period and public hearings by using something called an "emergency certification") is that the unintended consequences of any piece of legislation don't get aired and modifications made to the bill.
In this case, the "any part or assembly of parts that can convert a firearm to an AW" clause works in our favor.
It will allow us to DROWN them in AW registrations. Every A1 or A2 flash hider. Every MAGAZINE RELEASE button, every threaded bbl you have for a handgun, every set of AR receiver pins. Any single part (including a lower parts kit) is an AW. Looking around my basement over the last 24 hrs I've come up with almost 30 AWs, and that doesn't include a single firearm. I'm planning on registering every single little part. If they push back, I'll ask for an assurance in writing that it isn't necessary.
Make it miserable for them. But don't make it personal. I know a lot of LEOs and none of them are in favor of the law. Most wanted universal background checks, but it pretty much stops at that.
If we get every CT gun owner to do the same, we will bury them in data.
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Ok I understand what your saying.. As long as I have 1 registered lower I can have 5 complete uppers cause I will only have 1 AW at any given time.. I really don't think they reliaze that there will be well over 500,000 fourms they will have and thats a low #. When 1 person starts asking for 100 registrations for all there parts. There going to realize the huge amount that there is going to be. I'm still counting that this wont even work But we will see.
The real question is when will the court case and injunction come along? How can a ban so broad in scope - including the most popular and in common use firearm in the country and the state be constitutional?
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Isn't that impossible for the state to no when I got the lower and if I built it up the old way? I no your not suppose to but If I got a lower built it then ordered a complete upper and got it registered by the date when ever it is . It can be done ?
dcmdon
NES Member
They don't know when you build it. But they DO know when you buy the lower if you buy it from a dealer. If you buy a lower today, it has to be built in compliance with the new law.
The only way around it would be for you to buy a lower from a private party, who does not have to do a 4473 or call for a NICS check.
If that private party agreed to pre date the receipt, then you could build it up as a pre-ban or post ban configuration. By post ban I mean 94 through 4/4/2013.
This would be a illegal. But nobody would know other than you and the seller, since prior to 4/4/13, no paperwork or approval was required to for a non-handgun transfer between non-licensees
I am not advocating this. I'm just telling you that it could be done.
I'm sure this is going on now. But I wouldn't be so sure if the state would even really care. They have SHUT DOWN the sale of new ARs. These transactions are just between people inside the state. Its crumbs in the big scheme of things.
The only way around it would be for you to buy a lower from a private party, who does not have to do a 4473 or call for a NICS check.
If that private party agreed to pre date the receipt, then you could build it up as a pre-ban or post ban configuration. By post ban I mean 94 through 4/4/2013.
This would be a illegal. But nobody would know other than you and the seller, since prior to 4/4/13, no paperwork or approval was required to for a non-handgun transfer between non-licensees
I am not advocating this. I'm just telling you that it could be done.
I'm sure this is going on now. But I wouldn't be so sure if the state would even really care. They have SHUT DOWN the sale of new ARs. These transactions are just between people inside the state. Its crumbs in the big scheme of things.
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I hear you ,If people are going to do it. It will be them going to gun show's in PA. I'll just prob stick to getting a new complete upper to at least make me happy that I can switch things out if I get bored of shooting 1 since I was to late on getting another AR. But We can hope that we don't have to worry about any of this and the courts will overturn it..
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