Mudflap621
NES Member
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Sweet buddy glad you figured it out. There are some smart cats here.
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45 ACP reloading issue.
- Thread starter Brunosr
- Start date
38ExtraSpecial
NES Member
Nailed it. The FCD just hides problems by ironing them out. It works but it doesn’t make good ammo from bad ammo.
Awesome. Glad to hear it. That’s usually the issue.
pastera
I'm pretty careful when it comes to reloading , you can't seat every bullet perfectly straight on top of the case , every once and awhile you'll get a slight bulge , I seat and crimp in separate stages . You can seat and crimp in one step when die is set up properly , I use the 3 die carbide die set from RCBS ( taper crimp) for 45auto , I found adding the Lee Factory taper Crimp Die works perfectly for my crimp stage.
Chris
I'm pretty careful when it comes to reloading , you can't seat every bullet perfectly straight on top of the case , every once and awhile you'll get a slight bulge , I seat and crimp in separate stages . You can seat and crimp in one step when die is set up properly , I use the 3 die carbide die set from RCBS ( taper crimp) for 45auto , I found adding the Lee Factory taper Crimp Die works perfectly for my crimp stage.
Chris
pastera
NES Member
Agreed - it's very hard to get bullets perfectly aligned even when using two dies. With bullets where the seating stem isn't a great match it's even harder.
The FCD isn't a big issue with jacketed bullets and I think it's probably perfectly acceptable to use it as the crimp die in a two die setup when using jacketed bullets.
If you notice I keep bringing up jacketed versus cast because a lot of new reloaders read these posts and I try to make it clear that there are reasons and limits on the FCD usage. Cast bullets are situation where I believe the FCD has no place.
For a lot of cases people just use the FCD to get poorly made ammo to chamber and Lee is complicit with how they promote the die.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
Stop screwing around with 185 gr bullets. Go to 230gr RN. Jack.
The fact that your loaded round hangs up part way into the case gauge doesn't mean that the point of conflict is at the part of the case that is closest to the mouth of the gauge (which might suggest an issue with the sizing die). Unless you smoke the round's case and find the point of contact, you won't be able to diagnose the problem.
I have found, loading traditional 230 grain RN FMJs in .45 ACP, that sometimes the bullet doesn't start seating straight, and that as a result it bulges the case at the point that is pretty much where the base of the bullet lies. These rounds will fail to drop into my case gauge. Using calipers, I've measured diameters in this region as high as (from memory) 0.485".
The long term solution is to be more careful about starting the bullets. In the short term, pull the barrel from a .45 pistol and see if the rounds that fail the case gauge test will pass the plunk test using the barrel. If that fails, pulls the bullets and discard the cases.
I have found, loading traditional 230 grain RN FMJs in .45 ACP, that sometimes the bullet doesn't start seating straight, and that as a result it bulges the case at the point that is pretty much where the base of the bullet lies. These rounds will fail to drop into my case gauge. Using calipers, I've measured diameters in this region as high as (from memory) 0.485".
The long term solution is to be more careful about starting the bullets. In the short term, pull the barrel from a .45 pistol and see if the rounds that fail the case gauge test will pass the plunk test using the barrel. If that fails, pulls the bullets and discard the cases.
I just wanted to say that I have done the same exact thing. I don't know what it is about the 45 ACP but I find it to be the most difficult to reload. I am not sure if for some reason the tolerances are tighter or what but I always have trouble with it. To the point of getting discouraged when I need to reload another batch of them. I think I have between 10% and 20% rejects upon inspection and case gauging afterward.
I have had loaded rounds that wouldn't fit into the gauge but did pass the plunk test which could hang up on the chamber , using the Lee FCD corrected the rounds that didn't fit in the gauge and my rounds feed and shoot 100% , I do suggest seating and crimping in separate stages , using the Lee FC taper Die for 45 acp as your last crimp stage you will feed and chamber trouble free. Just give the die a try and see.
if your running mixed head stamps it can add to the problems.
I run all sorts of cast bullets from wad cutter , SWC, strange looking round flat nose wad cutter thing, plain old round nose. What I find is the seating stems need to fit well. Some die sets just come with a seating stem with a rounded seat to cover all the "round nose" variants. I bought a used older RCBS set that had 5 seating stems in it that fit alot of the flat nose truncated style profiles. I have modified many stems to get a good fit.
I don't recommend Lee FCDs for new reloaders because I saw a new reloader blow a Colt DE (10mm) to bits, partly because of the FCD.
He was overcrimping to the point where the case mouth was pushed completely into the (now deformed) bullet. The resulting bulge wouldn't let his rounds chamber, so someone recommended the FCD. He tried it, and it "worked". His horribly made ammo would now chamber, but the rounds were headspacing on the extractor rather than the case mouth.
After experiencing light strikes, he switched to the longer LR primers (his idea after reading on the internet) and thought he solved the problem. I was a couple of lanes away when his gun blew up. He was OK (a couple of small cuts on hs face). When I found the slide, the extractor hook was broken off.
Here's what I figure happened:
The rounds were headspacing on the extractor and the extractor broke off on the second-to-last round. The last round headspaced when the middle of his crimp hit the lands, with the case mouth into the rifling. The bullet was stuck, and the pressure blew up the round.
I looked at his remaining ammo and saw the horrendous crimp. I asked him, "Why did you crimp so much? He said, "It didn't feel like I was doing anything, so I tightened the die down until I could 'feel' the crimp."
He was reloading on a Rockchucker with a separate crimp die. You won't "feel" anything - you can let go and just drop the handle on a Rockchucker and it'll complete the crimp on a 10mm. I felt the high primer when I was examining his ammo and he told me about the LR primers then. I offered to let him take my class for free. He said he'd do it if he decided he was going to keep reloading. I never heard from the guy. I hope he sticks to factory ammo.
38ExtraSpecial
NES Member
Exactly. It can iron out problems to make the cartridge chamber but it doesn’t solve them.
There was a recent post with some 9mm that had serious crimp and the guy who loaded them was asking why too much crimp was an issue and your explanation was basically the same one I gave him except with 350 legend factory ammo that suffered from the same crimp issue.
Dangerous stuff. If you don’t know what a FCD is doing you shouldn’t be using it.
I do agree with your thinking , I would hope the people that are asking for help are the type you have described. I have come across some in my time. No matter what dies you use if set up correctly will work fine , , I found the FCD if setup correctly works very well. I mentioned the 3 die carbide set from RCBS works great , you can seat and crimp in one stroke when set up properly , I like doing each step separately , I leave my seater set to only seat and use another die which is the FCD to crimp. I do all my reloading on the single stage RockChucker all my adjustments are a little at a time and checked . The 45 is a simple round to reload but using a 230 grain fmj in some cases you see that bottom edge of the bullet that drives me crazy , it will work fine but it's not sized wrong it's the nature of the beast. In posts , I would hope it's that and not sloppy reloading. I still like the FCD when used properly.
Chris
Chris
Thanks for your feedback. I have been using mixed range brass. I started to sort by headstamp, which was a PITA. I found the Winchester brass failed me 90% of the time so I started chucking those. With that said though I cannot say there is any one type of brass that work 100% for me. This is a hobby for me though so I am always learning and trying to improve.
As far as bullet type goes I started with cast bollits I created myself. I had a lot of trouble with them. I started to just purchase jacketed 45ACP bullet heads whenever I could find them instead. This worked better for me, but I still run into gauging issues.
Last round of reloading these I read a couple articles about backing off the crimp. I did that and will in the future for all 45 ACP and 9MM. For crimping semi auto I try and mirror what I find in factory rounds. That really means no noticeable crimp at all. What is there is simply to ensure the bullet is firm in the case and that is all.
I have not heard of or tried anything around seating stems. I will look into that next and see if I can improve my process. Thank you sir.
pastera
NES Member
Why seat and crimp in separate dies?
As you seat the bullet the case mouth will reach the crimp area while the bullet is still being pushed into the case. How far the bullet will move during the crimp is a design tradeoff for the manufacturer. A sharp crimp taper will have much less bullet movement but is harder to adjust. Customers will get unhappy because a very small rotation of the 14 pitch thread will go from no crimp to over crimp and slight case differences will require readjustment
As the crimp is applied the case is squeezed between the die and the bullet increasing friction dramatically. If the force is too great (or the seater stem is a poor fit) the bullet will be damaged and/or the case will buckle under the downward pressure.
When done in two steps the downward force is much lower because you aren't trying to move the bullet while putting the brakes on with the crimp.
It's also much easier to adjust and maintain COAL on mixed brass when using two steps.
As you seat the bullet the case mouth will reach the crimp area while the bullet is still being pushed into the case. How far the bullet will move during the crimp is a design tradeoff for the manufacturer. A sharp crimp taper will have much less bullet movement but is harder to adjust. Customers will get unhappy because a very small rotation of the 14 pitch thread will go from no crimp to over crimp and slight case differences will require readjustment
As the crimp is applied the case is squeezed between the die and the bullet increasing friction dramatically. If the force is too great (or the seater stem is a poor fit) the bullet will be damaged and/or the case will buckle under the downward pressure.
When done in two steps the downward force is much lower because you aren't trying to move the bullet while putting the brakes on with the crimp.
It's also much easier to adjust and maintain COAL on mixed brass when using two steps.
That's normal. Here's why that happens and why you don't see it on factory ammo:
From manufacturer-to-manufacturer (and maybe even lot-to-lot) the thickness of brass cases varies. I measured a sample of mixed brass and found the thinnest case walls to be 0.008" and the thickest came in at 0.013". After you resize a batch of mixed cases, they will all have the same outside diameter, but the inside diameter will vary as much as 0.010" (twice the delta of the thickness variation). Your sizing die has to squeeze the brass enough so that even the thinnest case will be able hold a bullet. Most sizing dies are sized a little smaller than that to ensure a safety factor and account for springback. In other words, your sizing die is intentionally made to resize the brass to a smaller dimension than it needs to be - WAY smaller on thicker cases.
The ID of the cases then gets normalized (fixed) by the expander die. Many reloaders think the expander die simply bells the case mouth. It does do that, but more importantly, it also expands the inside diameter of the case at the top where the bullet goes. The ideal inside diameter for a case (regardless of caliber) is 0.002" to 0.003" smaller than the bullet, so the expander die pushes the ID out to that value. The end of the expander ball is rounded, so it doesn't leave an obvious transition on the outside of the case. When you seat a flat-based bullet, it further defines the area that was expanded by the expander die, and with thicker brass, the transition is easily visible. That's the bump you're concerned about. It perfectly normal and unavoidable.
You don't see this on factory ammo because the brass is all the same, and they don't resize it. It comes from the supplier pre-sized to the proper diameter.
pastera
Why I seat and crimp in separate steps , it's just my way . I use to seat and crimp in one stroke but if you go back and measure the OAL they can vary. By seating all the rounds and crimp in a separate steps it's more precise. I'm talking 230 grain FMJ's. I haven't shot cast in 45auto yet , have plenty hard ball ammo.
I'm shooting cast in my .38/.357 , wad cutters and semi's . Very mild loads , saves on powder and cuts down on the leading. I also seat and crimp in separate steps on those to . Time is not a issue. Be Safe.
Chris
Why I seat and crimp in separate steps , it's just my way . I use to seat and crimp in one stroke but if you go back and measure the OAL they can vary. By seating all the rounds and crimp in a separate steps it's more precise. I'm talking 230 grain FMJ's. I haven't shot cast in 45auto yet , have plenty hard ball ammo.
I'm shooting cast in my .38/.357 , wad cutters and semi's . Very mild loads , saves on powder and cuts down on the leading. I also seat and crimp in separate steps on those to . Time is not a issue. Be Safe.
Chris
