Seriously, it’s exhausting just reading it. I would claw my own brain out with f***ing garden tools if I had to deal with this every day.
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36 yard zero on an ACOG?
- Thread starter Nico9283
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Anyone know where to get Unicorn Droppings (primers) for non ass rape pricing?
Well, the first primer thread lasted 55 pages, until people couldn't follow the rules, which seem pretty simple. Let's try this again. Mods, if you feel this is an exercise in futility, please delete. If the first wife couldn't hurt my feelings, neither can you. DO NOT POST THE NAME OF...www.northeastshooters.com
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25m zero on both aimpoints and acogs served me well in Afghanistan both upclose and at distance. I never felt like i had to do anything different when I rezeroed. I also was the sdm and had a m14ebr but thats a different story. My optics are set the same here at home and my rifles will hit what theyre aimed at. So many fudds lose hair over this shit at the range.
Nico9283
NES Member
Thank you, this is legitimate feedback. I’m sure nobody that said I’m an idiot for zeroing it at any distance other than what the manual says have ever even looked through one. Appreciate this, going to go ahead and zero it how I want it.
Oh boy, lots to unpack in this thread.
* The ACOG’s clicks are not very repeatable. It’s supposed to be set it and forget it. I tried using an ACOG for Service Rifle matches the first year that it was allows by the CMP and dialed for the different ranges. Terrible idea and I lost points because of it.
* The Bindon Aiming Concept is NOT what you should use for 36-300 yards. It is reasonably adequate for room clearing distances. Even then, not great. But it is completely useless beyond that as your eye offset induces extremely large parallax errors.
* An appropriate 100m zero for the ACOG is point and shoot for all realistic engagement distances for a civilian. And even if you need to take a farther shot, you’ll have time to do so and don’t need to simplify it to a single point of aim on the reticle. The 100m zero will be more precise at realistic distances, and the BDCs will be more precise at range, even if the reticle isn’t matched to your load/barrel. 5.56 is going to be similar enough out to 3-400 meters. Seriously, just zero at 100 and use the BDC when needed (which won’t be often for a civilian). In a combat zone with actual engagements ranging from rooms to a few hundred meters, zeroing at 100 and using the BDC was extremely fast and easy. And by the way, most of the time your target is not going to be exposing their entire torso to you. They will be using cover and the 36 yard zero that is hyped online becomes very un-helpful because the vertical spread goes far beyond what a bad guy is generally going to be exposing.
* But you’re right that you don’t need to worry about the Tritium. I never needed it and most ACOGs I used didn’t even have it anymore. The fiber optic gets you illumination in dawn and dusk light. And in the dead of night you’ll either be using white light (which will make black reticles pop), or be using night vision with something else.
* I highly recommend going with the crosshairs reticle ACOG. I hated the chevron with a fiery passion. Too ambiguous of an aiming point and then the thick chevron covered up targets at 200-300 meters with slight wind.
Why in the world did you use a 25m zero on the ACOG?
And for the Aimpoint, did you do the 25 meter zero according to Army doctrine with the POI in the lower third of the silhouette on the zero target?
Also, I too attended the AMU’s SDM course and they certainly did not tell you to zero your ACOG at 25m.
cathouse01
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I have an ACOG on my MCX Patrol. It has the Primary Arms ACSS reticle and I never really considered zeroing it at anything other than the recommended 100 yards. The only reason I can see for any BDC reticle is to aid in rapidly ranging and targeting a human target, so anything that hampers that ability seems to be counter intuitive to me. The ACSS's "circle of death" is more than adequate for CQB situations with the scope zeroed at 100 yards. If I'm not going to be able to make full use of the rapid ranging/targeting capabilities of a BDC (which I believe is the case if I either don't have it zeroed at the zero it was designed for, or use ammo with it that it wasn't designed for), I'm happy to go with a simple red dot and just use experience to determine my hold over at longer ranges. And as I said before, for me the Mepro M21 is a red dot that takes care of the battery issues.
For a good explanation of the ACSS reticle see the video by Mrgunsngear:
For a good explanation of the ACSS reticle see the video by Mrgunsngear:
OP, watch this and take in his talk of the “minute of man” fallacy. He’s talking about LPVOs vs red dots, but it applies to using an ACOG as a magnified dot vs using its reticle as designed.
It’s precisely what I was talking about with threats rarely presenting their whole torso.
View: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cuk0yZhuLpD/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
It’s precisely what I was talking about with threats rarely presenting their whole torso.
View: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cuk0yZhuLpD/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
But why though?
I have an acog that for a while was zeroed for the Loeb range out at mass rifle, but honestly, at that range you could just chop 4 figures off the price and have a better performing optic.
I have an acog that for a while was zeroed for the Loeb range out at mass rifle, but honestly, at that range you could just chop 4 figures off the price and have a better performing optic.
I agree, there isn't a single do it all scope.
In my opinion, 3-X (or 2-X) with a red dot on the side comes close.
The scope can offer ways to range distances and engage targets 75 yards and further, the red dot is great for close range up to 100 yards, give or take depending on target.
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I was actually a big fan of the Elcan specter dr 1 - 4. Yes, it had it's issues in the 1x range compared to an aimpoint and the overall weight but it performed well at "minute of man." Im also someone who put an eotech with a 3x magnifyer on a m249 and thought it did a hell of a job so dont listen to me.. Anyway, yes, the elcan was pretty much rhe precursor to lpvos'.
DarthRevan
NES Member
I'm by no means a fighter or marksmen, but I personally would take the extra pound (give or take) if I could better identify targets at distance.
For me, it totally depends on the environment and what else I’m carrying. The 4x ACOG has fantastic quality glass and is great for IDing targets at reasonable 5,56 distances.
Sure, higher mag may be better for that, but it’s diminishing returns in the 400 yard range. And what else is on the gun? Light, laser? What is on my kit? 40lbs of armor and LBE? 35-100 lbs of sustainment and mission kit in a pack? Is my weapon system capable of reaching farther out and someone else with me can focus on the near stuff to help cover that use case in our CONOPS?
Or, is it just a gun to walk around in the woods with and you don’t need to be quick at 1x, and the higher mags are nice to count antlers or whatever else?
A 2, 2.5 and 3x offer good field of view.
A red dot weights close to nothing, minimal.
A 2x or greater scope can be a little heavier than an LPVO, but some are lighter. Leupold used to have a 2-7x around 17oz.
Leupold still has a 2-7 at ~11-12 ounces. But I certainly don’t trust it to hold zero after getting banged around.
It also has a measly 43.8’ FOV at 100 yards on 2x. That’s equivalent to a 87.8’ FOV on a 1x LPVO, which is abysmal. Hell, it’s only slightly larger than the 36.8’ FOV of a 4x ACOG, yet 2x less power.
Most of the 2/2.5x low end optics I’d trust seem to be in the mid 20oz range. And a red dot plus mount can easily add 4oz. It all adds up. But yeah, it might be just right for you and others.
I will say the NXS 2.5-10 seems to be a fantastic durable and lightweight option. And has a good eye box. Only downside really (aside from slightly older glass quality) is that it’s SFP. But for most uses, that should be fine with 10x and good turrets. It also has 44’ FOV at 2.5x which is very respectable.
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Tangential discussion about “do all” optics:
I’m very intrigued by the new March 1.5-15x42 dual focal plane.
- FFP Christmas tree reticle for precision work
- SFP duplex reticle for quick sight picture on low magnification
- 70ft of 1.5x FOV
-15x top end if you really want to zoom in, but I bet it functions great at 8-12x which is a sweet spot for magnified work
- Locking turrets if you want to dial
- 24.7oz, which is a little chunky, but not bad by any stretch for the capability
My only concern, aside from cost, is how finicky are the eye box and depth of field? Other than that it sounds amazing.
D15V42FDIMLX (Dual, MIL, Tactical, Illumi, Shuriken lock) | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation
MARCH Scopes Official Site
marchscopes.com
Tangential discussion about “do all” optics:
I’m very intrigued by the new March 1.5-15x42 dual focal plane.
- FFP Christmas tree reticle for precision work
- SFP duplex reticle for quick sight picture on low magnification
- 70ft of 1.5x FOV
-15x top end if you really want to zoom in, but I bet it functions great at 8-12x which is a sweet spot for magnified work
- Locking turrets if you want to dial
- 24.7oz, which is a little chunky, but not bad by any stretch for the capability
My only concern, aside from cost, is how finicky are the eye box and depth of field? Other than that it sounds amazing.
D15V42FDIMLX (Dual, MIL, Tactical, Illumi, Shuriken lock) | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation
MARCH Scopes Official Site
Where were you when I was looking for scopes?
LOL ... it is OK, I am looking for another scope now, in the same mag range. I think I will put the Meopta in the 45/70 and another one (maybe this one?) in the 6.5. Bringing both to Michigan to go south and north of the stupid rifle line.
Edit: I hate you, these things are north of $2K. Not happening.
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Mesatchornug
NES Member
Being honest? It's smaller and less expensive than I expected...Tangential discussion about “do all” optics:
I’m very intrigued by the new March 1.5-15x42 dual focal plane.
- FFP Christmas tree reticle for precision work
- SFP duplex reticle for quick sight picture on low magnification
- 70ft of 1.5x FOV
-15x top end if you really want to zoom in, but I bet it functions great at 8-12x which is a sweet spot for magnified work
- Locking turrets if you want to dial
- 24.7oz, which is a little chunky, but not bad by any stretch for the capability
My only concern, aside from cost, is how finicky are the eye box and depth of field? Other than that it sounds amazing.
D15V42FDIMLX (Dual, MIL, Tactical, Illumi, Shuriken lock) | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation
MARCH Scopes Official Site
Still, too rich for my blood.
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Missed this post. Apparently youre on my ignore list. This was 2009 and i didnt know any better. Ive zeroed both optics according to doctrine. I remember the acog using the same standard 25m zero target but the impact was supposed to be in a different area of the silhouette vs the aimpoint. I didnt get to attend the sdm course. I was the best shot in the squad so they gave myself and the guys from other squads m14s and a crash course in whatever scope was used at the time due to this being a last minute decsion on us having sdms for the tour.
Thanks. It sounds like you zeroed using a 25m range, but didn’t actually zero for/at 25m. The offsets on those targets are designed to functionally zero the M68 at 50m, and the ACOG at 100m.
For the ACOG, soldiers are supposed to confirm their “25m offset-zero” at 100m whenever they have a 100m range to use. Which, I realize is rare in big Army.
Dennis in MA
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How often are you getting into fire fights with your AR where the other guy is not presenting a full torso? Or a full torso? Or his ass? When was the last AR fire fight for a non-military NES member????
Are you new to the past 10 years of gun culture?
If we wanted to be real about the most likely use case for a defensive carbine (which is still extremely unlikely), then we’d all only have red dots on our ARs. Just about anything past red dot effective range is going to get you in jail.
But, we all like to prepare for worst case. Which includes extremely unlikely contingencies. Given the OP’s desire for the long term durability and illumination of the ACOG, it sounds like he is building the rifle for long-term contingencies and unknowns, which could include engaging threats at further distances than would currently be legal.
If we’re picking optics strictly for shooting targets on the range, there are much better options than the ACOG.
I’m just sharing my experiences from using an ACOG for the purpose it was designed, as it directly relates to the OP’s contingency CONOPS.
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That does sound familiar. I can tell you that we never once stepped foot on a US Army 100m range besides authorized battle space lol! There was a couple times where we had an "off" day and went out to a remote location to blow off some rounds and do some familiarization/cross training on things like the barret and mk48 et cetra. We would check zeroes then. Cant recall anybody being inaccurate with their pea shooter. This is why i have a nice stack of those 25m zero targets here at home and use them for all my rifles. Quick, easy and i dont need a 100m range or have to deal with anybody else interrupting me.
Dennis in MA
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I know. But we can also get WAAAY lost in the weeds. Worrying about partial torso shots at 100yds. Our battles, if they are fought, won't be on a WWII type battlefield. Regardless of what we train for, the majority of shots will be taken inside or 50 yards.
And I'm not dogging on you or hte OP. I've spent years in rabbit-holes only to realize it cost me $ and time and really pissed off the rabbit. LOL
And I'm not dogging on you or hte OP. I've spent years in rabbit-holes only to realize it cost me $ and time and really pissed off the rabbit. LOL
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Our battles, if they are fought, would include everything from room clearing to "voting from the rooftops." If actual urban fighting happens, targets are likely to seek cover or concealment behind anything available - cars, walls, etc. - if only because nobody wants to stand in the middle of a street with rounds incoming.
Since we agree that we hopefully won't be fighting any battles, let's look at the next-most-likely use case where it actually matters.
In hunting, we owe it to our quarry to hit where we aim. This means the ~10" of elevation variation in a 300m BZO gives about 15" of potential error - landing on a deer anywhere from a low heart/lung up to the spine. Either of these is a fine target, but there's quite a bit of no-man's land in between.
