Long Guns in MA

[Buck F]

For home defense you probably shouldn't be thinking of getting a rifle...the projectiles penetrate too much and travel too fast to be able to fire safely in a small setting like a house. A 12 guage shotgun will stop anything in line of sight, but will also not penetrate walls (or at least not with still lethal velocities) endangering other members of your household in adjacent rooms.

.223/5.56mm penetrate less than most common handgun and shotgun rounds. I see a lot of commentary here about the various shotgun loads that should be used but almost no mention of the variety of AR rounds that are available. There are soft nose hollow point .223/5.56 rounds that will not penetrate walls anywhere near what birdshot or handgun rounds will and are as deadly if not deadlier than birdshot. No one is saying to use green tips in an AR for home defense, there are plenty of low penetrating defense rounds to choose from. You also have the ability to modify/accessorize an AR like virtually no other weapon, you can make it very light & maneuverable for very tight quarters while still being able to reach out and touch someone fairly easily at 100 yards. Throw a red dot or laser on it and you'll hit whatever you're pointing at in close quarters multiple times.

 

[whacko]

.223/5.56mm penetrate less than most common handgun and shotgun rounds. I see a lot of commentary here about the various shotgun loads that should be used but almost no mention of the variety of AR rounds that are available. There are soft nose hollow point .223/5.56 rounds that will not penetrate walls anywhere near what birdshot or handgun rounds will and are as deadly if not deadlier than birdshot. No one is saying to use green tips in an AR for home defense, there are plenty of low penetrating defense rounds to choose from. You also have the ability to modify/accessorize an AR like virtually no other weapon, you can make it very light & maneuverable for very tight quarters while still being able to reach out and touch someone fairly easily at 100 yards. Throw a red dot or laser on it and you'll hit whatever you're pointing at in close quarters multiple times.

Will these special 5.56 rounds you speak of penetrate two layers of inner wall?

Link?

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Ranger007]

Remember to change to dummy firing pins when you leave home.

 

[Da_lucche]

For home defense you probably shouldn't be thinking of getting a rifle...the projectiles penetrate too much and travel too fast to be able to fire safely in a small setting like a house. A 12 guage shotgun will stop anything in line of sight, but will also not penetrate walls (or at least not with still lethal velocities) endangering other members of your household in adjacent rooms.

This is why ammo choice is important for home defense. No one who has done even the littlest amount of research is going to use m855 or m193 or really any 55 grain FMJ for HD.

75/77 grain BTHP or 55/64 grain Soft point (not bonded) is what should be loaded for home defense if you want to use an AR15 in 5.56 and are worried about over penetration. If evidence is needed, you can find tons of ballistic gel tests on Youtube.

You would be surprise how much over penetration you get with slugs and buckshot as well as pistol rounds compared to 5.56 personal protection ammo.

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[Varmint]

Will these special 5.56 rounds you speak of penetrate two layers of inner wall?

Link?

- - - Updated - - -

In this test posted already, the soft point .223 and .380 auto ball had the lowest penetration - just making it through two dry walls.

http://www.how-i-did-it.org/drywall/index.html

 

[Da_lucche]

In this test posted already, the soft point .223 and .380 auto ball had the lowest penetration - just making it through two dry walls.

http://www.how-i-did-it.org/drywall/index.html

And it is destabilized and lost all of its lethal energy to boot.

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[Varmint]

I may have to rethink my .45 for home defense. Seems like even with defense ammo, .45 is going too slow and penetrates well.

 

[AmeriKHAN]

A full size handgun is best. Maneuverability plus compact size making it easier to hide and ambush someone and is also easier to blind fire. Do yourself a favor and experiment with your long guns - unloaded of course. What you want to do is try maneuvering around your house and peaking corners. Through this I learned that my Mini-14 was than my A2 profile AR. I also set an alarm clock at a random time during the middle of the night to experiment waking up suddenly and having to grab a weapon. The handguns seemed to be the easiest handle in these cases - especially when you jump up outta bed real quivk and black out from getting up to fast. I think a lot of people overthink this subject. You are at a complete disadvantage in the "bump in the night" scenario. There really is no one best choice. Thats why I keep a Beretta 92fs and a mini-14 with a 30 round mag - both with empty chambers. Rack em when needed.

 

[Warm_Garand]

Really? I'm willing to bet this would get the job done.

Now dass Gangsta.

 

[YZhou4]

A full size handgun is best. Maneuverability plus compact size making it easier to hide and ambush someone and is also easier to blind fire ... especially when you jump up outta bed real quivk and black out from getting up to fast.

Don't completely disagree with the rest of your argument, but I hope the 2 underlined parts were a joke. Leave the blind-fire to untrained militia members in Syria. If you meant point-shooting, I would agree at short distances it is a viable option. Quick-access of long-guns while keeping them secure from thieves and children is hard to legally achieve in MA (large biometric/combo safe next to the bed is usually frowned upon by significant others, though if you can, more power to you). If you are blacking out from getting up really quickly, your doctor might need to adjust your blood pressure medication a little.

 

[AmeriKHAN]

Don't completely disagree with the rest of your argument, but I hope the 2 underlined parts were a joke. Leave the blind-fire to untrained militia members in Syria. If you meant point-shooting, I would agree at short distances it is a viable option. Quick-access of long-guns while keeping them secure from thieves and children is hard to legally achieve in MA (large biometric/combo safe next to the bed is usually frowned upon by significant others, though if you can, more power to you). If you are blacking out from getting up really quickly, your doctor might need to adjust your blood pressure medication a little.

The blind firing i should have added is in the event that a gun fight breaks out between you and the assailant(s) - and even then only in a situation where you are being supressed. Also, as long as you are present in the home the storage laws do not apply. That is why i take the mags out and theow them in the safe and then trigger lock the firearms before leaving my home.

It is important to comply with the storage laws in the event that you do have to use a firearm in self defense - even outside the home. Why? Because they will come to your house and confiscate every last piece and round of until it is clear that you were justified in your use of force. Many gun owners have gotten screwed over by this when the police come and find that firearms and ammo have been left unsecured when "not in use". Hell, i would even recomend securing them unloaded after such an incident in the home.

And the blacking out thing is jumping out of a deep sleep - not a grogy morning after a night at the bar. God I hate this state sometimes.

 

[oldguy68]

FN M249S!

When you have to send the very best!



And...because there may be two of them breaking into your home!

 

[tuna]

Part of it is though when people say "Birdshot" they're not talking 4 buck or things like that, or even a 6 dove load with the high brass, they're instantly thinking of 7.5 or 8 shot, low brass, skeet/trap type round.

Half of the loads we're talking about in this thread, half of the gun shops don't even sell them. I think I still have some packs of CCI Lawman 4 buck from 10+ years ago, but to this day I've only ever seen it sold in a few places.

-Mike

True - however, even the "wimpy" birdshot isn't anything to sneeze at at close range. (I should say that I don't recommend loading a shotgun with 7.5 birdshot - but it doesn't matter, all the Tommy Tacticals aren't going to bother reading that and will just yell "Derpa derpa AR!")

I take my young kids out pheasant hunting with me - and being young they scare all the animals out of the zip code that we're in. After a couple of our "armed walk" the kids were bored and wanted to see me shoot something. I picked a stand of small trees that had a nice hill behind it, set a pine cone on a small one about 3.5 - 4" across and shot it from about 3 yards (maybe a little closer). Not only did the pine cone disappear, but the load of 16ga 7.5's left a 2" hole straight through the tree. Two more shots completely cut the tree down.

Granted, this was extreme close range - but that's what we're talking about for HD, right? And at close range, the shot hasn't had time to disperse and is pretty much one giant loosely packed bullet. Yes, energy falls of FAST. Yes, a bigger projectile is better. Yes, loading up with "wimpy" birdshot for a gunfight is stupid. It is better than just using the gun as a club, however, especially at club range.

 

[Da_lucche]

I may have to rethink my .45 for home defense. Seems like even with defense ammo, .45 is going too slow and penetrates well.

I'd love to be able to use subsonic blackout for HD (even without a supressor) but OTM or VMax punch right through and don't fragment at 1,000 fps. And all the specialized all copper subsonic HD ammo (which is some bad ass stuff) is hard to come by in Mass. The 3 best manufacturers don't ship here and the 2 online ammo vendors I use don't carry any of em.

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[whacko]

True - however, even the "wimpy" birdshot isn't anything to sneeze at at close range. (I should say that I don't recommend loading a shotgun with 7.5 birdshot - but it doesn't matter, all the Tommy Tacticals aren't going to bother reading that and will just yell "Derpa derpa AR!")

I take my young kids out pheasant hunting with me - and being young they scare all the animals out of the zip code that we're in. After a couple of our "armed walk" the kids were bored and wanted to see me shoot something. I picked a stand of small trees that had a nice hill behind it, set a pine cone on a small one about 3.5 - 4" across and shot it from about 3 yards (maybe a little closer). Not only did the pine cone disappear, but the load of 16ga 7.5's left a 2" hole straight through the tree. Two more shots completely cut the tree down.

Granted, this was extreme close range - but that's what we're talking about for HD, right? And at close range, the shot hasn't had time to disperse and is pretty much one giant loosely packed bullet. Yes, energy falls of FAST. Yes, a bigger projectile is better. Yes, loading up with "wimpy" birdshot for a gunfight is stupid. It is better than just using the gun as a club, however, especially at club range.

You have the concept of what makes a shotgun a good choice for home defense in close quarters:

Shotguns.......high energy up close........loses energy quickly due to the shot spreading out.

 

[EMTDAD]

There are 2 lucky BPD officers (one of whom was a HS classmate of mine) that can attest to shotgun use in close quarters.. granted, I doubt the perp had any cares about his shot penetrating nearby walls..

 

[amm5061]

You have the concept of what makes a shotgun a good choice for home defense in close quarters:

Shotguns.......high energy up close........loses energy quickly due to the shot spreading out.

I'll second your choice. In my case--small apartment--a shotgun with what ever the hell you want to load it with would be effective. The range is not more than 8-10 feet. I could load it with crowd control rubber and still be lethal if I hit them right, so #7-1/2 target loads would certainly do more than enough damage, and at around 6' away would definitely have enough penetrating power. At 16', the 2x4s on the trap house do a good job stopping shot, so for me that would be good to prevent accidentally shooting my neighbor in the next apartment over.

If I owned a house, then yes, an AR or Tavor in 5.56 would be on my list, along with a shotgun loaded with probably #4 buckshot or a specialty HD ammo (after patterning and testing, of course). Over-penetration would not be on my list of worries. Load the AR with soft or hollowpoint home defense rounds like someone else mentioned and an exterior wall would stop it nicely.

Unfortunately we live in Mass, so the best I likely will have time to do is 11 rounds of 9mm unless some random massive protest march kicks off in my parking lot.

 

[Billsail]

You have the concept of what makes a shotgun a good choice for home defense in close quarters:

Shotguns.......high energy up close........loses energy quickly due to the shot spreading out.

Pellet spread, even out of a cylinder bore, is surprisingly small at HD ranges. Smaller birdshot does however, lose energy faster, due to it's lighter weight.

Take a look at trapshooting, where the launcher is 16 to 27 yds. in front of the shooter. At a 16 yd (48') minimum distance, plus the the 5 or so yds. the average shooter needs to pull the trigger, the distance is well over 60 ft. Even at that distance, your aim needs to be pretty close to on-target, to break the bird.

New shooters are surprised when birds don't break, when they fire in the "general direction" of the target!

 

[whacko]

I'll second your choice. In my case--small apartment--a shotgun with what ever the hell you want to load it with would be effective. The range is not more than 8-10 feet. I could load it with crowd control rubber and still be lethal if I hit them right, so #7-1/2 target loads would certainly do more than enough damage, and at around 6' away would definitely have enough penetrating power. At 16', the 2x4s on the trap house do a good job stopping shot, so for me that would be good to prevent accidentally shooting my neighbor in the next apartment over.

If I owned a house, then yes, an AR or Tavor in 5.56 would be on my list, along with a shotgun loaded with probably #4 buckshot or a specialty HD ammo (after patterning and testing, of course). Over-penetration would not be on my list of worries. Load the AR with soft or hollowpoint home defense rounds like someone else mentioned and an exterior wall would stop it nicely.

Unfortunately we live in Mass, so the best I likely will have time to do is 11 rounds of 9mm unless some random massive protest march kicks off in my parking lot.

If I lived in a house where 20 yard defensive shots were possible I would not chose a shotgun.

It's all about the layout of the home.......not bla bla bla "ar" as has been pointed out here already.

 

[amm5061]

If I lived in a house where 20 yard defensive shots were possible I would not chose a shotgun.

It's all about the layout of the home.......not bla bla bla "ar" as has been pointed out here already.

Yup, exactly. You don't use a hammer on a screw. The right tool for the job depends on your environment and what the job will be.

 

[42!]

Half of the loads we're talking about in this thread, half of the gun shops don't even sell them. I think I still have some packs of CCI Lawman 4 buck from 10+ years ago, but to this day I've only ever seen it sold in a few places.

-Mike

So the AG's interference in mail order ammunition forces you to use less safe ammo resulting in a greater risk to yourself and the community in general.

 

[tuna]

Yup, exactly. You don't use a hammer on a screw. The right tool for the job depends on your environment and what the job will be.

Bad analogy, I've used a hammer on screws with good success. I've also used a fire extinguisher on a nail. Sometimes you gotta be able to multi task.

This wasn't supposed to be on topic, but the shotgun is the greatest multitasker. Also have used as a hammer. I think I need to go to the hardware store instead of the gunshop.

 

[amm5061]

Bad analogy, I've used a hammer on screws with good success. I've also used a fire extinguisher on a nail. Sometimes you gotta be able to multi task.

This wasn't supposed to be on topic, but the shotgun is the greatest multitasker. Also have used as a hammer. I think I need to go to the hardware store instead of the gunshop.

Meh, I should have said "you usually don't want to use a hammer on a screw, but it works in a pinch."

 

[Buck F]

Will these special 5.56 rounds you speak of penetrate two layers of inner wall?

Link?

- - - Updated - - -

Special rounds I speak of? There are a dozen posts in this thread about every conceivable birdshot option and not one link to prove any of it and I mention that there are soft point/hollow point .223 rounds and that's some sort of outlandish claim? Someone posted a good link already showing that in just about every conceivable scenario a .223/5.56 round penetrates less than shotgun or handgun rounds (walls specifically). If I was a hunter or sporting clays shooter and owned shotguns I'd be fine with using one for home defense but I wouldn't buy a shotgun for home defense over a rifle under any circumstances except maybe price. It doesn't have to be an AR, it could be a bullpup or other compact .223/5.56 rifle platform but if overpen is a concern then a shotgun doesn't have anything over a rifle in .223/5.56.

 

[whacko]

Special rounds I speak of? There are a dozen posts in this thread about every conceivable birdshot option and not one link to prove any of it and I mention that there are soft point/hollow point .223 rounds and that's some sort of outlandish claim? Someone posted a good link already showing that in just about every conceivable scenario a .223/5.56 round penetrates less than shotgun or handgun rounds (walls specifically). If I was a hunter or sporting clays shooter and owned shotguns I'd be fine with using one for home defense but I wouldn't buy a shotgun for home defense over a rifle under any circumstances except maybe price. It doesn't have to be an AR, it could be a bullpup or other compact .223/5.56 rifle platform but if overpen is a concern then a shotgun doesn't have anything over a rifle in .223/5.56.

No links on evidence of birdshot?!?! Post 14 and post 15 have links to actual birdshot being used on 3 layers of housing walls in comparison to 5.56 ball and also some tests on penetration for defensive purposes. Conclusion is that high brass birdshot is effective on 2 legged Intruders and loses energy fast enough no tonexit the house

I asked for a link to see what u based your conclusions on.

 

[76Too]

Special rounds I speak of? There are a dozen posts in this thread about every conceivable birdshot option and not one link to prove any of it and I mention that there are soft point/hollow point .223 rounds and that's some sort of outlandish claim? Someone posted a good link already showing that in just about every conceivable scenario a .223/5.56 round penetrates less than shotgun or handgun rounds (walls specifically). If I was a hunter or sporting clays shooter and owned shotguns I'd be fine with using one for home defense but I wouldn't buy a shotgun for home defense over a rifle under any circumstances except maybe price. It doesn't have to be an AR, it could be a bullpup or other compact .223/5.56 rifle platform but if overpen is a concern then a shotgun doesn't have anything over a rifle in .223/5.56.

Whacko posted a link on the first page of the thread that is pretty much...no, IS a definitive test on what birdshot is capable/incapable of achieving in the way of penetration. It basically confirmed what I already knew and with solid testing behind it. All you little kooky commando's wanna go all tactical squirrel running around your house with AR's, and I get that...it feels pretty cool. To those of us that have actually trained in room clearing, every advantage possible is welcome...very complex maneuvers are involved along with high stress and adrenaline. Do you really wanna go swinging your rifle around in every direction not knowing what's behind your intended target? I have horsehair plaster and slats in my walls, and I still don't trust them to stop a 5.56 round of ANY style...aside from maybe a straight cast load.

 

[AKOK74]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

 

[Warm_Garand]

Whacko posted a link on the first page of the thread that is pretty much...no, IS a definitive test on what birdshot is capable/incapable of achieving in the way of penetration. It basically confirmed what I already knew and with solid testing behind it. All you little kooky commando's wanna go all tactical squirrel running around your house with AR's, and I get that...it feels pretty cool. To those of us that have actually trained in room clearing, every advantage possible is welcome...very complex maneuvers are involved along with high stress and adrenaline. Do you really wanna go swinging your rifle around in every direction not knowing what's behind your intended target? I have horsehair plaster and slats in my walls, and I still don't trust them to stop a 5.56 round of ANY style...aside from maybe a straight cast load.

Your post gave me AIDS.



For anybody else who might consider a shotgun for your home defense go-to, read this:

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-56-federal-flight-control-1-buckshot/

I recently patterned some Federal tactical (#1) at the range, and the flight control wad wasn't even beginning to open up until the 12 yard mark.

Basically, for all easily imagined home defense scenarios it would shoot (and hit) like a frangible rifle round.

 

[Varmint]

I have horsehair plaster and slats in my walls, and I still don't trust them to stop a 5.56 round of ANY style...aside from maybe a straight cast load.

The ballistics of lightweight 5.56 are such that it penetrates strong solid walls better than softer walls, which is why it goes through 1/2" plate steel but has trouble going through 3 walls of drywall.

 

[Buck F]

No links on evidence of birdshot?!?! Post 14 and post 15 have links to actual birdshot being used on 3 layers of housing walls in comparison to 5.56 ball and also some tests on penetration for defensive purposes. Conclusion is that high brass birdshot is effective on 2 legged Intruders and loses energy fast enough no tonexit the house

I asked for a link to see what u based your conclusions on.

Post #42 has a link that shows that .223 does not consistently overpenetrate as much as much as handgun and birdshot rounds.