.308? What do you load?

[45BPCR]

Mike,

The Sierra 168 SMK was designed for 300 meter target shooting.
Somewhere I have an article detailing how Sierra designed it.
I tend to be somewhat brand loyal.
Lapua and Sierra throw a boatload of prizes and money at out matches down in PA, so I buy their stuff.
Not to detract from other manufactures.

 

[northny]

If ts only out to 300 yards, I'm not sure the heavier bullets are going to have an advantage over the 168s especially in a short barrel like yours. At longer distances, they buck the wind better but I like them in a 26" barrel to get all the velocity I can because they start to drop sooner. Probably not by much at 300 though. Its going to be about what your barrel likes better. Your 1:10 might like the 178s. The 1:12s really like the 168s, but also shoot the heavier bullets well depending on the powder.

Right on the $$$

Mine is a 26” barrel with 1:12 twist

 

[mac1911]

Hahaha. Yeah I remember that. I bought the stock off you after that. Not a huge fan of the fat forend but I figure it’s always shot off a bipod and at the time they didn’t make a similar profile with a narrow forend.
I’m not selling it to the likes of you!

I think it’s a 20”. At least that’s the specs I can find online. I have to check the actual rifle.


Well that’s good news. I didn’t want to get in too deep and have more in dies that I did into the rifle. After all it’s pretty much stock and who knows if a late model Remington is capable of great accuracy or not.

Though I did get the bolt fluted so that’s going to cut the group down considerably (sarcasm)

View attachment 592232

You can also toss some cast loads through it?

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

You can also toss some cast loads through it?

I can but with the fast twist my guess is I would have to keep it really slow.
Not a bad thing really. I can get some trigger time on the cheap.

 

[mac1911]

I can but with the fast twist my guess is I would have to keep it really slow.
Not a bad thing really. I can get some trigger time on the cheap.

You can get to 1900 fps or so with a 1/10 twist with out much fuss. Is a slow 200 gn cast bullet a challenge at 300 yards, maybe

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

You can get to 1900 fps or so with a 1/10 twist with out much fuss. Is a slow 200 gn cast bullet a challenge at 300 yards, maybe

I have a 198 spire point mould.

 

[mac1911]

I have a 198 spire point mould. View attachment 592544

Cast Bullet Loads for Military Rifles - Article

The following is a very good read with excellent information: CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES Cast bullets can make shooting that surplus rifle easy and economical. And basic data works for many different guns. BY C.E. Harris Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful...

castboolits.gunloads.com

 

[ffej ruedorb]

Around 205gr
5744 had best results

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

View attachment 592603Around 205gr
5744 had best results

How did they group?

 

[gerrycaruso]

I use 5744 in almost all cast bullet loads in rifle calibers. Only .38/55 likes IMR4227 better. AA 5744 seems very similar to SR 4759.

 

[ffej ruedorb]

How did they group?

I wish I took target pics, I remembered being very surprised. I want to say they were grouping less than 1” from each other at150yd . They were only a few test loads so I’ll have to load some more up and see what kind of results I can get

 

[NavelOfficer]

AR often has the 175g SMK and a Terminal Match bullet (175g and 179g). They also have a copper 125g that might be worth a try (save the planet while shooting, too!). Good luck.

 

[mac1911]

I think I’m going to finally work up a load for my Remington 700.
I’ve shot 168 SMK over Varget in the past. Just some loads I had handy from another rifle. I never worked up anything proper for it. All mixed brass plinking stuff.

Now I want to spend time with the rifle this summer and work up something decent. 300 yard max at my range.

Here are my thoughts.

Lapua Brass
Grab 100 of each in the
Burgers
Hornady Amax
Hornady ELD
Should I go 168 or 178 range?

Federal match primers because I have them on hand.

RCBS dies to start. I’ll fire form then use a Lee collet neck sizer.

Not sure on powder. Suggestions?

View attachment 592088

For the record my 308 load that does well in my 308s is a 168 gn nosler CC or SMK
With 42 gns varget. Brass does not seem to be much of a factor. I do try to match my brass when possible. It most likely will shoot great in anything. I hover right around moa with it and im sure im the deviation in the equation.

The creedmoor stuff with lapua brass and lapua 167 gn bullet is also very good and im sure it would be sub moa ammo in a platform with consistent skill set behind it.

My first child was born when I just started getting into 600 yard shooting and over the past 10 years only made it out to 600 1-2 times a year since. I dont own anything I would consider “long range and accurate”
Sure a 3min 10 ring out to 600 when I can hold it I have rifles that can to.
Getting into the sub 1.5 moa zone is going to take work on my end

 

[paul73]

For the record my 308 load that does well in my 308s is a 168 gn nosler CC or SMK
With 42 gns varget.

my 308 AR so far consistently defies any load i am baking for it. just spreads it out at 3-4 MOA no matter what you feed into it. a true sprayer.
so annoying.

 

[PatMcD]

my 308 AR so far consistently defies any load i am baking for it. just spreads it out at 3-4 MOA no matter what you feed into it. a true sprayer.
so annoying.

A good barrel? A good, floated barrel? Odd. 308 AR's are usually easy to get to shoot well. I had a DPMS that was the most accurate 308 I ever owned. Junk Federal GMM was 3/4 to 1 moa. Handloads were around 1/2.

 

[paul73]

A good barrel? A good, floated barrel? Odd. 308 AR's are usually easy to get to shoot well. I had a DPMS that was the most accurate 308 I ever owned. Junk Federal GMM was 3/4 to 1 moa. Handloads were around 1/2.

dunno. go figure. a wilson combat 18", was supposed to be good, perhaps.
last try from yesterday was 43.2gr varget. i tired different powder amounts, different powders, different seating - no clear signs of the good working nodes yet.
i will settle at 43gr i think, as it just starts showing the extractor prints there, and play with seating depth again at 43gr to see which one will be more consistent groups wise and give up.



here how it was with various varget loads tests. a very consistent inconsistency.

 

[1903Collector]

I just copy the Federal 175gr GMM load cuz that's what my 308's are dialed in for.

 

[Lefty38-55]

I agree with many here, 4064 or Varget and no heavy bullets needed. Personally I go with Varget as it is temperature INsensitive.

Regardless, no one here mentioned working up a load according to Dan Newberry’s Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) method. Tuning the load so that the rifle fires when the barrel is that one of the two nodes will give you THE best and most accuracy and repeatedly, regardless of velocity standard deviation or extreme spread.

A low SD or ES is useless if the barrel is in its largest wave of movement while firing! This has been proven again & again out to and past 1000-yards. See here for more details:

http://www.ocwreloading.com/load-info.html

 

[paul73]

http://www.ocwreloading.com/load-info.html

linky no worky?
or was it NES that broke their internet?

it opened. a 46gr varget on a 308 168gr load is a HUGE overpressure. at least in my rifle it starts to print at 43.5gr and at 46gr i did it smacks the buffer all the way back - i would not do that.
an official data for hornady 168gr says the max varget load in 308 for 168gr is 44gr. sierra is not far off - 43.5gr.

plus anything above 44.5gr varget spreads the group into 5MOA the best. most forums say the same.

also interesting that there is nothing there for reloder15 that is considered one of the best accurate 308 loads, if one can actually buy some.

 

[Lefty38-55]

Rifles vary, pressures vary … that’s why all loading instructions always advise one to work up to YOUR load for YOUR combo …

 

[paul73]

Rifles vary, pressures vary … that’s why all loading instructions always advise one to work up to YOUR load for YOUR combo …

i get it, but, if 46gr is already way too much for an 18" AR - the 24" bolt is not going to like it. some data like that is just not safe.
46 was probably done by getting there powder up to the edge of the neck and pressing it in, i think.

 

[mac1911]

my 308 AR so far consistently defies any load i am baking for it. just spreads it out at 3-4 MOA no matter what you feed into it. a true sprayer.
so annoying.

Barrel loose?

 

[mac1911]

I just copy the Federal 175gr GMM load cuz that's what my 308's are dialed in for.

What lot number of FGMM where you trying to duplicate and what powder ?

 

[paul73]

Barrel loose?

no, it is fine... it is surprisingly intact. the barrel issue was on a 20" la rue that i suspect i have dropped once. or twice.
after a re-torquing it is it stellar now. may be a bartlein etc could have been better, but, i am reasonably happy with what i have there now - 10 shots down there, from a 100:


i can take it all apart, of course, just for an experiment alone and re-torque... not a big deal, but, does not seem to be justified - there is 0 play on the barrel there now.

 

[1903Collector]

What lot number of FGMM where you trying to duplicate and what powder ?

No clue what lot number, target has been 2600fps. My load is 42.2gr of 748 under a 175gr SMK. Average velocity is 2597 (choro'd) out of my Savage HS precision. OAL of 2.236" from ogive with BR-2 primers.

 

[mac1911]

No clue what lot number, target has been 2600fps. My load is 42.2gr of 748 under a 175gr SMK. Average velocity is 2597 (choro'd) out of my Savage HS precision. OAL of 2.236" from ogive with BR-2 primers.

Thought you might be trying to match up the powder , maybe you knew what they used for a specific lot ?

 

[Mudflap621]

I agree with many here, 4064 or Varget and no heavy bullets needed. Personally I go with Varget as it is temperature INsensitive.

Regardless, no one here mentioned working up a load according to Dan Newberry’s Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) method. Tuning the load so that the rifle fires when the barrel is that one of the two nodes will give you THE best and most accuracy and repeatedly, regardless of velocity standard deviation or extreme spread.

A low SD or ES is useless if the barrel is in its largest wave of movement while firing! This has been proven again & again out to and past 1000-yards. See here for more details:

http://www.ocwreloading.com/load-info.html

I agree with many here, 4064 or Varget and no heavy bullets needed. Personally I go with Varget as it is temperature INsensitive.

Regardless, no one here mentioned working up a load according to Dan Newberry’s Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) method. Tuning the load so that the rifle fires when the barrel is that one of the two nodes will give you THE best and most accuracy and repeatedly, regardless of velocity standard deviation or extreme spread.

A low SD or ES is useless if the barrel is in its largest wave of movement while firing! This has been proven again & again out to and past 1000-yards. See here for more details:

http://www.ocwreloading.com/load-info.html

Do you have links to the proof?

 

[1903Collector]

Thought you might be trying to match up the powder , maybe you knew what they used for a specific lot ?

Just trying to match velocity of the factory ammo but I have never chrono'd the factory stuff, I should to see if I'm actually getting whats printed on the box, plus I have a lot of 175 GMM on hand, been buying the stuff for years so I have a wide variety of lots I'm sure.

 

[Lefty38-55]

Do you have links to the proof?

Look at his YouTube videos …

But surely if you understand physics and external ballistics, you would realize a shot from THE most stable state would be best when coupled with a respectable statistical variance.

 

[Mudflap621]

Look at his YouTube videos …

But surely if you understand physics and external ballistics, you would realize a shot from THE most stable state would be best when coupled with a respectable statistical variance.

Surely, because a single 3 shot group is a respectable statistical representation.

Have you ever tried to reproduce an OCW test? What about try shooting it with more than 3 shot groups, 30-shot groups would surely up the statistical proof. Seems like every time ive seen it tried it comes up unrepeatable.

Take Lou Murdica for example. If you have never heard of him id suggest doing a little research as he is pretty well versed in ballistics. Lou has some of the most state of the art equipment and has done alot of testing for bullet manufacturers. He tests with rail guns in a tunnel which leads him to eliminate almost all outside influences. Ill attach a few of his findings here.

"Well, here's what I got today. I've got some more work I'd like to do and I'll see if I can get the Excel sheet uploaded here-- if nothing else I'll try to get it in a google doc or something.

Each dot represents a 5 round group MPOI (Scale is inches at 200yd). Each color represents a charge weight. I will be further breaking these into subsets of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th group of each charge weight. I'm about half way through that and I'll spoil it for you-- they don't repeat. These are less messy to look at, too.

This data set has the most resolution, but the gun was moved between some of the sets, so each set of 35 is referenced off of its own MPOI. Some 'global' position could be lost, but in my experience with other powder ladders, even over 3-4gr spreads the MPOI of the large data sets is within about a .08 MOA window in the worst cases.

Nevertheless, if you look at this below, you'll see 5 shot group MPOI of the same ammo varies in a .35ish MOA window... so even if my 'global' 35 shot group is .04 or .06 or .08 MOA in error, it's completely swallowed up by the randomness of 5 shot samples-- which has been my point all along. There are not many viable conclusions to draw from 5-shot groups, and the difference in dispersion performance or MPOI between two varied powder charges is not among them. These patterns repeat over and over. Noisy data until 15-30 rounds in... It's the same thing you learn in probability and statistics, it's the same rule of thumbs that every statistical process control/analysis people use... Somehow people think shooting is different I guess?

Sorry if I'm short, but I've had this play out already. I started with shoulder fired rifles & contoured barrels with me aiming them and had people claim I wasn't steady enough to have valid data. I switched to an accuracy fixture and 1.25" barrels and get told that it's too rigid to show OCW results. My data came to the same conclusion both ways... I've burned out barrels doing this and have people tell me I'm wrong with no supporting data, or refute large sample data with more small sample data. It gets old."

I’d also be interested in seeing more proof that SD and ES mean nothing. Im not the most versed on physics or ballistics but im pretty confident that a projectile with a large velocity spread will not be consistent at 1000 yards. IMO these numbers are some of the best representations of consistency. If you want accuracy you need consistency and the most effective and most reliable test is velocity testing. It eliminates a lot of variables that are present in POI testing.

BTW I'm not trying to say that harmonics are non-existent all im saying is that looking for POI shifts at 100 yards with an OCW test doesn't seam to be the best way and has been found to be unrepeatable.