21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

[T-Unit]

Our we-hate-all-cops contingent can't wrap their heads around the difference between BORTAC and the local cops. To them, a cop is a cop is a cop, so the loitering local cops and BORTAC guys who got there later and went in pretty much ASAP, all the same to them.

And if it was the Bortac team that used chuldren as a distraction ir bait to more safely open the door, they aint no better than the local ticket writers.

In fact, they'd be worse.

 

[kevin9]

So, the guys who ended up doing the right thing deserve to be in a jail cell. Let me just make sure I get this all straight. The guys who went against orders, had no business officially even being there, deserve to be in jail.

I'm with you.
AFAIK there were 3 primary LEO organizations there, the school department police force, the head of which was the IC (), the local town police department, and eventually the Border Patrol TAC unit that went in. I've already said what I think of the IC. I've not seen reporting on the composition of the first group of officers on scene, the ones who stopped because they might have gotten shot (), or the 19 that eventually ended up loitering outside the classroom, but they've been called police officers, not Border Patrol, so I'm guessing the first group was mostly, or all, school police officers, and the majority (all) of the larger group were school and local police officers. I've seen it reported that the BP TAC unit was specifically ordered not to engage for 10s? of minutes, presumably by the IC, and as you point out eventually did go in against orders and got the job done.

 

[weekendracer]

Our we-hate-all-cops contingent can't wrap their heads around the difference between BORTAC and the local cops. To them, a cop is a cop is a cop, so the loitering local cops and BORTAC guys who got there later and went in pretty much ASAP, all the same to them.

He can't even admit there were at least 2 sets of LEO's on scene. One had IC, it took guys saying 'enough of this BS' and went anyway, to end the stand off.

Yes, @T-Unit you freaking follow orders when there's a 2 way shooting range. It took some time to realize those orders were wrong. Then people went and did what they were supposed to do. That Bortacer's kid was in the school, you think for one minute he wasn't ready to go the instant he left the barbershop? GMAFB.

 

[weekendracer]

And if it was the Bortac team that used chuldren as a distraction ir bait to more safely open the door, they aint no better than the local ticket writers.

In fact, they'd be worse.

Well, I hope you're never in that type of situation, but it'd be an interesting read to see just how well you do.

 

[Picton]

Our we-hate-all-cops contingent can't wrap their heads around the difference between BORTAC and the local cops. To them, a cop is a cop is a cop, so the loitering local cops and BORTAC guys who got there later and went in pretty much ASAP, all the same to them.

No, sorry. BORTAC was there at quarter after and waited 35 minutes to breach.

I'll give them five minutes to gain situational awareness and complete their plan, but that means they still stacked up 30 minutes too late. Kids died during those 30 minutes. Are we supposed to just gloss over that?

ETA: getting the times right...

 

[Quantavious G]

An hour later and 20 dead bodies short.

Not a single cop there was forced to be a cop. Every single one voluntarily chose to become a cop. It can be a dangerous job. It’s part of what they are paid for. If you are unwilling to do your job because it’s too dangerous or you are too scared, find another job. There isn’t a thing in the world stopping them.

You are right, eventually some went in and one nearly got killed doing so. And you know what? That’s what it takes. Sometimes it takes risking your own life to save others. Sometimes it takes extreme bravery and danger to do what needs to be done. And sometimes, people get killed. It sucks. But that’s the way it is. Anyone who can’t accept that then you should have never got into the job in the first place.

they were cops, but they acted like specialists.

 

[ProGun]

I hope that image is true. Do you have a source you can cite?

The problem with that image is some of those cities do not have "strict" gun control. Not sure about accuracy of other points, but Detroit, New Orleans, and St. Louis are not in states with stupid gun control laws.

 

[meh]

No, sorry. BORTAC was there at quarter after and waited 32 minutes to breach.

I'll give them five minutes to gain situational awareness and complete their plan, but that means they still stacked up 27 minutes too late. Kids died during those 27minutes. Are we supposed to just gloss over that?

OK, well, it looks like the timeline has evolved since I last perused it.

 

[T-Unit]

Well, I hope you're never in that type of situation, but it'd be an interesting read to see just how well you do.

My obituary would be in my back pocket. It'd read "T-Unit: not a pussy"

 

[weekendracer]

When did I say they deserved to be in jail?

It's possible to think they did the right thing and also didn't do the right thing, simultaneously. This isn't black-and-white: it's a spectrum of failure. EVERY LEO on that scene failed those kids. Every one. Some failed them much worse than others (the spectrum), but they all failed, because at the end of the day kids died while it was within their power and their duty to stop it.

That's something they'll all have to live with, even the BPS guys who finally breached. Late.

ETA: to be clear: I disagree that the BPS guys on-scene "did the right thing." What they did was not as wrong as the other 15-odd LEOs in that hallway, but that doesn't mean it was "right." It was simply less wrong. If my kid had died because of it? Am I supposed to feel better that the BPS went in when it was too late to save her? No.

Even I get this briefing every year: "the police will come in immediately." Every teacher and every parent in the US is told that. Every year. It didn't happen here, so I don't think anyone deserves a pat on the back.

They went in after an hour, after multiple calls to 911 by children, after doing training a few months ago.

They deserve a jail cell, not praise.

 

[kevin9]

No, sorry. BORTAC was there at quarter after and waited 32 minutes to breach.

I'll give them five minutes to gain situational awareness and complete their plan, but that means they still stacked up 27 minutes too late. Kids died during those 27minutes. Are we supposed to just gloss over that?

No, but put the blame where it belongs, on the IC who apparently ordered them to stay out.
I also think 5 minutes for SA is not realistic, particularly when those in charge, the ones giving orders, telling people what's what and what (not) to do, have the wrong picture and thus are giving out misinformation.

 

[Picton]

OK, well, it looks like the timeline has evolved since I last perused it.

I had it wrong too, as I edited.

They waited 35 minutes, not 32.

I don't harp on this to make anyone feel butthurt about these LEOs. I harp on this (and I hope everybody does) because it cannot happen this way again. Agreed?

 

[T-Unit]

He can't even admit there were at least 2 sets of LEO's on scene. One had IC, it took guys saying 'enough of this BS' and went anyway, to end the stand off.

Yes, @T-Unit you freaking follow orders when there's a 2 way shooting range. It took some time to realize those orders were wrong. Then people went and did what they were supposed to do. That Bortacer's kid was in the school, you think for one minute he wasn't ready to go the instant he left the barbershop? GMAFB.

He probably went in to get his kid first, then went to business for the breech second.

The orders with active shooters is engage, every cop in the country knows that, but they dont do that and we've seen this time and again the ticket writers form a perimeter and wait for SWAT.

If the larpers in a uniform cannot or will not engage active shooters then they should have all their tactical toys taken away, funding reduced, and replace the 9mm with a .38.

 

[Picton]

No, but put the blame where it belongs, on the IC who apparently ordered them to stay out.
I also think 5 minutes for SA is not realistic, particularly when those in charge, the ones giving orders, telling people what's what and what (not) to do, have the wrong picture and thus are giving out misinformation.

Yeah, no. Sorry.

"Go in immediately" is something even I know about school shooters. Every cop in the country knows that. If the IC tells you to hang back and you know that's the wrong call, I can see waiting a couple minutes for him to change his mind before disobeying. But 40? No. Never.

 

[weekendracer]

He probably went in to get his kid first, then went to business for the breech second.

The orders with active shooters is engage, every cop in the country knows that, but they dont do that and we've seen this time and again the ticket writers form a perimeter and wait for SWAT.

If the larpers in a uniform cannot or will not engage active shooters then they should have all their tactical toys taken away, funding reduced, and replace the 9mm with a .38.

If it comes out he went to his kid first, I'd agree with you. But until then, you just keep making things up.

 

[Junior314]

And just like that…

BREAKING: Uvalde Police No Longer Cooperating With Texas DPS Investigation, Report Says


Uvalde Police No Longer Cooperating With Texas DPS Investigation: Report | The Daily Wire

 

[weekendracer]

Yeah, no. Sorry.

"Go in immediately" is something even I know about school shooters. Every cop in the country knows that. If the IC tells you to hang back and you know that's the wrong call, I can see waiting a couple minutes for him to change his mind before disobeying. But 40? No. Never.

The problem here is, yes, you go in immediately. But there was a known locked door. The shooter had shot through the door at the first attempt to open the door. Now you need equipment to get through the door. Where that equipment was in this case, I don't know. I don't know if there were windows, there's a whole lot I don't know about this incident, and I'm no longer in the loop for anything remotely official to find out.

Edit: I'm assuming anything is still correct in the reporting that's coming out.

 

[kevin9]

Yeah, no. Sorry.

"Go in immediately" is something even I know about school shooters. Every cop in the country knows that. If the IC tells you to hang back and you know that's the wrong call, I can see waiting a couple minutes for him to change his mind before disobeying. But 40? No. Never.

Knowing it's the wrong call is the key point. When did the BORTAC unit learn that it was still an active shooter event, not the hostage situation the IC and other LEOs were saying it was? And when did they learn the local SWAT team was not going to do the job? IMNSHO those are key questions.

 

[Picton]

The problem here is, yes, you go in immediately. But there was a known locked door. The shooter had shot through the door at the first attempt to open the door. Now you need equipment to get through the door. Where that equipment was in this case, I don't know. I don't know if there were windows, there's a whole lot I don't know about this incident, and I'm no longer in the loop for anything remotely official to find out.

And all that needs to be investigated. I'm not confident it will, in a way that will answer the questions that need to be answered, but even if it does?

FORTY. MINUTES.

There really isn't any excuse. Especially since kids were on 911 during that time, begging for help.

 

[weekendracer]

And just like that…

BREAKING: Uvalde Police No Longer Cooperating With Texas DPS Investigation, Report Says


Uvalde Police No Longer Cooperating With Texas DPS Investigation: Report | The Daily Wire

Does anyone do their own reporting anymore? DailyWire writing a news story off an ABC news correspondents tweet?

 

[Picton]

Knowing it's the wrong call is the key point. When did the BORTAC unit learn that it was still an active shooter event, not the hostage situation the IC and other LEOs were saying it was? And when did they learn the local SWAT team was not going to do the job? IMNSHO those are key questions.

BORTAC was there by 12:15. A 911 call came in at 12:19, and others kept coming in at intervals.

So... four minutes or so. Maybe six, if I'm giving time for dispatch to get the word out.

I've waited a couple days before getting REALLY pissed about the timeline, but the more I find out? Nope. No excuse for 40 minutes.

 

[meh]

I harp on this (and I hope everybody does) because it cannot happen this way again. Agreed?

Totally agree. As I read more about the initial confrontation, I'm reminded of the tactics debate between the Marine Corps and the Army in the Pacific in WWII. The Marines held that aggression and speed saved lives in the long run. The Army's inclination was to be more slow and methodical. The initial contact had officers taking fire, but was the suspect accessible to them at that point? Could they have taken him if they had tried? I read about this locked door, but I don't think I quite have the tactical scenario sorted out. Was the locked door an issue during the initial confrontation or only later? There are windows on the outside. They probably didn't have what they needed to breach, but could they not have engaged the shooter's attention? I'm not asking you in particular, but this thread seems to be more about woulda, coulda, shoulda (when it isn't about gun control), and I'd like to understand the tactical situation better.

 

[Junior314]

Does anyone do their own reporting anymore? DailyWire writing a news story off an ABC news correspondents tweet?

Daily Wire probably has 1/100th of the reporting budget that ABC does.

 

[kevin9]

BORTAC was there by 12:15. A 911 call came in at 12:19, and others kept coming in at intervals.

So... four minutes or so.

If they knew of the 911 calls.
I'm guessing the locals spent a good chunk of that 40 minutes giving "the federales" the proverbial Heisman; not sharing full information and telling them "we got this".

 

[Picton]

Totally agree. As I read more about the initial confrontation, I'm reminded of the tactics debate between the Marine Corps and the Army in the Pacific in WWII. The Marines held that aggression and speed saved lives in the long run. The Army's inclination was to be more slow and methodical. The initial contact had officers taking fire, but was the suspect accessible to them at that point? Could they have taken him if they had tried? I read about this locked door, but I don't think I quite have the tactical scenario sorted out. Was the locked door an issue during the initial confrontation or only later? There are windows on the outside. They probably didn't have what they needed to breach, but could they not have engaged the shooter's attention? I'm not asking you in particular, but this thread seems to be more about woulda, coulda, shoulda (when it isn't about gun control), and I'd like to understand that the tactical situation better.

There was a window in the door itself, which the perp shot out. So, a big-ass hole in the door of at least one of the classrooms.

BORTAC had a shield there by 12:15.

So... put the shield over the big hole in the door, get a guy prone shooting underneath it to drive the perp from that classroom (or tag him, even better!), and you've got at least one room cleared. Someone reaches through the hole and turns the doorknob from the inside. Boom.

Would that take time? Sure. But not forty minutes.

 

[T-Unit]

There was a window in the door itself, which the perp shot out. So, a big-ass hole in the door of at least one of the classrooms.

BORTAC had a shield there by 12:15.

So... put the shield over the big hole in the door, get a guy prone shooting underneath it to drive the perp from that classroom (or tag him, even better!), and you've got at least one room cleared. Someone reaches through the hole and turns the doorknob from the inside. Boom.

Would that take time? Sure. But not forty minutes.

All this talk about waiting for a shield, how many cops outside the building (where they were nice and safe to abuse unarmed parents) had two rifle plates on their exterior plate carriers? Idk, about 50, so 100 plates were available to fashion a shield, multiple shields, and none of these donut munchers thought to do that?

Nobody with a badge has an idea how to breach a locked door other than to wait for SWAT? If the police are this ineffective during an active shooter, but oh so duty bound to enforce Covid regulations then what fukking reason is there to have police in a free country?

 

[Bonesinium]

I don’t think many people would have a huge problem with them if they took 5 minutes to organize and come up with a plan and execute it. But 40-80 minutes is inexcusable. Nobody expected them to be a John Basilone or Roy Benavidez. We just needed them to not be a Bowe Bergdahl.

​

 

[Dadstoys]

When did I say they deserved to be in jail?

It's possible to think they did the right thing and also didn't do the right thing, simultaneously. This isn't black-and-white: it's a spectrum of failure. EVERY LEO on that scene failed those kids. Every one. Some failed them much worse than others (the spectrum), but they all failed, because at the end of the day kids died while it was within their power and their duty to stop it.

That's something they'll all have to live with, even the BPS guys who finally breached. Late.

ETA: to be clear: I disagree that the BPS guys on-scene "did the right thing." What they did was not as wrong as the other 15-odd LEOs in that hallway, but that doesn't mean it was "right." It was simply less wrong. If my kid had died because of it? Am I supposed to feel better that the BPS went in when it was too late to save her? No.

Even I get this briefing every year: "the police will come in immediately." Every teacher and every parent in the US is told that. Every year. It didn't happen here, so I don't think anyone deserves a pat on the back.

Before we get carried away .
Do we even know how long those four guys were on the scene before they said f*ck it and went in ?
I would imagine seeing as that's a big area , not everyone in Texas rolled in at the same time.
Seeing as they weren't even fully kitted up , it may not have been long.
A baseball hat is a piss poor substitute for a ballistic helmet.
I'll give these guys the benefit of the doubt till I hear otherwise.

Remember in Broward it was the guys from the next county over that showed up last and went blowing past Broward's finest who were hiding to make the entry.

 

[weekendracer]

All this talk about waiting for a shield, how many cops outside the building (where they were nice and safe to abuse unarmed parents) had two rifle plates on their exterior plate carriers? Idk, about 50, so 100 plates were available to fashion a shield, multiple shields, and none of these donut munchers thought to do that?

Nobody with a badge has an idea how to breach a locked door other than to wait for SWAT? If the police are this ineffective during an active shooter, but oh so duty bound to enforce Covid regulations then what fukking reason is there to have police in a free country?

You really think every LEO has rifle plates? I didn't have them for almost 2 decades, grabbed some the last year I worked. I wasn't working for a BFE local PD either.

 

[Picton]

Before we get carried away .
Do we even know how long those four guys were on the scene before they said f*ck it and went in ?
I would imagine seeing as that's a big area , not everyone in Texas rolled in at the same time.
Seeing as they weren't even fully kitted up , it may not have been long.
A baseball hat is a piss poor substitute for a ballistic helmet.
I'll give these guys the benefit of the doubt till I hear otherwise.

Remember in Broward it was the guys from the next county over that showed up last and went blowing past Broward's finest who were hiding to make the entry.

We know that BORTAC elements were there at 12:15 with a shield. Might have been those four, might not have been, but if four BORTAC guys eventually went in successfully at 12:50, then what was stopping them (or their buddies) at 12:15?

I know we don't have an answer, and might never. Because there's no acceptable answer for a forty-minute delay. No way should any of us accept that from any LE agency.