2013 Smith & Wesson IDPA Indoor National Championship

[KOMA829]

I ended up 2nd for SSP/MM. great time and great stages. hats off to all the CSO, and SO and the staff for a great shoot.

I guess i am looking at a bump to sharpshooter

 

[Cd662]

Congratulations to everyone on here that placed and thanks to the people who worked the match. In regards to the discussion about pick up guns, I personally feel they have no business being in a match. If a company wants to showcase a gun, the appropriate place to do that is with a side match. That would have been a great opportunity to raise some money for the University of Vermont brass fund as well. I don't train hundreds of hours and spend thousands of dollars to shoot a random pocket pistol that I already know I can't shoot well and thus, I don't carry one for self defense purposes. It's a waste of people's time and money.

 

[M1911]

I enjoyed the pickup gun stage. Given the size of the match, my score on the pickup gun stage was not very important in the grand scheme of things. My score was about 300 and my score on the pickup gun stage was ~6.

Given how much S&W supports that match, giving them back a little by allowing them to showcase a new gun in one small stage seems like a small price to pay.

 

[Glshooter]

I completely agree with cd662. A match shouldn't be decided on a random gun that you have no experience with that others might. It may not be a huge percentage of your score but having lost and won matches by fractions of a second I know that everything counts. For example the difference between me and my nearest competitor yesterday was 0.01 seconds. We practice and shoot with our guns and ammo for a reason.

 

[Cd662]

S&W supports the match but we support S&W. As a fellow wheelgunner, M1911, you know that almost all of us shoot Smiths and own multiple Smiths. There were tons of M&Ps being used at the match. A lot of people had Smith and Wesson shirts and soft goods and accessories. Times were really tight as per usual, one shot is enough to change the placement; why should that shot be on a novelty gun? The top two SSR Marksman competitors, for example, tied EXACTLY on time (I have no idea how they chose the winner). GIShooter, it IS a huge percentage of your score. The reason people shoot their own guns is because they are tailored for their use, whether for competition's sake or for defensive use. With four targets on a short, standards style stage a reasonable time for a good shooter was probably around 6 seconds in raw time. If you went down two on each target, you added 4 seconds which is 66% of the time the entire stage took. This is HUGE. I messed up my first two shots and I thought I saw one on paper, but it was just a sea of tape. One target cost me 10 seconds in addition to my other points down, so I probably tripled the score. If we were having an M&P Shield match I'd doff my hat and be done with it, but shooting a compact striker gun with self defense ammo has absolute no bearing on my revolver shooting skills. Just my two cents, I don't want the thread to turn into an angsty argument about it.

 

[earthshine402]

I enjoyed the pickup gun stage. Given the size of the match, my score on the pickup gun stage was not very important in the grand scheme of things. My score was about 300 and my score on the pickup gun stage was ~6.

Given how much S&W supports that match, giving them back a little by allowing them to showcase a new gun in one small stage seems like a small price to pay.

I agree with this. They host this match every year, and who knows how much money they spend on it. Even though I bitched about not being able to dry-fire or check it out before-hand, this stage is so minimal vs the rest of the match.

Although I find it amazing that the two SSR MM tied, You guys are grasping at straws being nit-pickers over the tiniest of stages, where the rest of the match was very challenging and you had the potential to put some distance between yourself and the others in the complex stages.

When I shot the Sheild stage, I took my time, used the sights, and moved on. Sure, it wasn't a blazing time, but I had no bad hits.

 

[M1911]

With four targets on a short, standards style stage a reasonable time for a good shooter was probably around 6 seconds in raw time. If you went down two on each target, you added 4 seconds which is 66% of the time the entire stage took. This is HUGE. I messed up my first two shots and I thought I saw one on paper, but it was just a sea of tape.

It's a lot of time on that stage, but for the match? 4 seconds = 2 points. For someone like me, 2 out of 300 = 1.5%, not something I'm particularly worrying about.

Yes, lots of us have multiple S&W. But many (most?) of us at the match haven't handled a Shield before. Even if we don't buy one (and since I already have that niche filled with a PM9, it's not on my list of things to buy), I suspect that most of us are influencers. That is, our friends and family look to us as "the gun guy" and come to us with gun questions. If they are looking for a subcompact gun, we can now say we've shot the Shield and we think it is great/sucks/meh. Obviously S&W is hoping we think it is great.

I know that more than a few people in IDPA feel the way you do. But personally I like a pickup gun stage now and then, even in a sanctioned match.

 

[Cd662]

Earthshine, I'm not sure how much competing you do but perhaps one day you will reach the point of understanding that every stage is important. If you are part of the "I think every match is great because it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling and anyone who disagrees with a nitpicker" crowd, don't worry, you're in good company. I guess it's my fault, I shot the Shield sideways, gripped it as loose as possible, and point shot every target. There were some great stages to this match that were innovative and interesting and there were a lot of typical IDPA stupid things to deal with too that make shooting any of these matches an exercise in frustration.

 

[Darkwood Arms]

I was an SO on stages 3 & 4 and was able to squeeze in shooting 12 of the 13 stages over the course of 2 days (6 was toast by thurs. morning.)

I'm not sure it was the intent of S&W to promote their Shield by having it as a pick up gun. I think the stage designer for that stage thought it would be interesting and challenging to use a PU gun. Anyway, the course description made available to the shooters before shooting the match reveals the Shield as the PU gun. As IDPA is geared toward "real world defensive based scenarios", it is possible to be put in a position of needing to shoot an unfamiliar gun and thus using a PU gun may be more tolerated in a sport like IDPA than USPSA.

 

[testosterone]

Pickup guns are not appropriate in my opinion either and I hope the new rule book does away with them.

I don't care how "little value" the stage was. In a game where the smallest number wins, literally everything matters, and putting in a pickup gun adds pure chance to the outcome.

 

[earthshine402]

Earthshine, I'm not sure how much competing you do but perhaps one day you will reach the point of understanding that every stage is important. If you are part of the "I think every match is great because it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling and anyone who disagrees with a nitpicker" crowd, don't worry, you're in good company. I guess it's my fault, I shot the Shield sideways, gripped it as loose as possible, and point shot every target. There were some great stages to this match that were innovative and interesting and there were a lot of typical IDPA stupid things to deal with too that make shooting any of these matches an exercise in frustration.

I actually agree with you on your position. We all train with our own equipment and expect to perform well with it. Having some pick-up gun that 5% of the people might own is unfair, but I'll deal with it if that is what is necessary to shoot a good match like that. Having the pick-up gun for a 6 or 7 second stage is not going to make me never sign up for it again.

 

[M1911]

There certainly are things about the match that irritated me, but this just wasn't one of them.

 

[earthshine402]

there were a lot of typical IDPA stupid things to deal with too that make shooting any of these matches an exercise in frustration.

I dissagree on this. Everything was a test of shooting under different conditions. No silly penalties for non-shooting BS. If you don't like IDPA, don't shoot it.

 

[Cd662]

I don't find this to be an acceptable answer, earthshine. I paid my IDPA membership so my opinion counts as much as anyone's. I've done a lot to support IDPA and action shooting sports, not as much as a lot of the folks who work the S&W match but I've definitely put my time in. This becomes problematic in any action shooting sport because the moment someone voices a legitimate concern about how something is done, someone else comes along and says "If it bothers you that much, just don't shoot that format". I'm not sure how the shooting scene is up there in New Hampshire, I'm sure having the Sig Academy helps. In Connecticut, IDPA is pretty much the only game in town. The number of sanctioned IDPA matches compared to USPSA or nonexistent NRA Action Pistol in the northeast is staggering. De facto, if you want to shoot action pistol, you have to shoot IDPA. There are tons of anti-IDPA general threads so I won't even go there; to keep things thread relevant, can you tell me what sort of shooting challenge is offered by having to stare into a strobe light while moving to "cover" which would offer no actual cover in reality? It's non productive and potentially dangerous. What about having to shoot a target on the move that offers zero challenge and then people stand there and blaze at it and receive no penalty?

Here are some stages I enjoyed. I thought the Cosmic Bowling stage was an interesting idea with the exception of the strobe light and the positioning of the non threat. I would have included the non-threat but altered the position of the moving target slightly. I thought the Wedding Stage was a good transition test. I thought the 6 shots on the head and 12 shots on the body standards exercise was interesting and Ken, Tim Smith, and the other guys in his crew did awesome in moving that stage along by pulling the targets and scoring/pasting them while other people shot. That was an excellent way to keep things efficient. I thought that having ample water and small amenities like tea and coffee were a great touch. I saw both Mike Critser and Lou Denys walking around and checking on things, offering suggestions and keeping the staff updated. There were lots of great things about this match, I just feel that IDPA sanctioned matches in particular tend to have at least 30% of the stages involving some aspect of novelty. It's meant to be entertaining to social shooters but isn't always universally appreciated. Look forward to shooting with you guys soon when the weather warms up.

 

[earthshine402]

Cd662, I understand the concern, and agree that as a member of IDPA, we should all be able to voice our opinion and have things change accordingly. I did not want this to turn into an argument, and it appears we kept it calm to some degree, so that is good.

There are some USPSA options for you in MA and RI, depending on where you live.

The bowling stage had you move back to position 2 solely b/c of the limitations of that skinny bay is my guess. You did not have to use cover at position 2. I thought it was a unique stage with lighting that just about made me throw up when I first saw it, but it made things interesting. The tight shots were tough, but I did OK by slowing down to be sure of my sights.

I'm trying to figure out which one you mean by this

target on the move that offers zero challenge and then people stand there and blaze at it and receive no penalty

but can't quite figure it out.

I also really enjoyed the wedding stage. I had to make sure of that good sight picture, but was able to do it in a reasonably efficient way overall.

The prop on stage 3 with the simultaneous out-back, and up-down target was neat and stressful trying to figure out how to shoot it. I also managed to be in a hurry at the end with the 3 head-shots, and got down 5, down 5, HNT...

The stage 4 standards was alright, except I had a malfunction due to being in a hurry to drop the slide before the mag was fully seated and caused a jam. I also think they way that stage was run was very quick and efficient.

Blown stages like my 3 and 4 make me go back and think.. "what can I do better in the future, etc.."

The ambulance stage I thought was just plain cool how everything activated all at once.

The red-light stage 10 was interesting b/c it gave people options - be risky, conservative.. unfortunately, it seems that some people were not able to see their sights at all on that one.

Shooting sports in NH are not as strong as MA, but they are picking up. I'm looking forward to assisting Ken and crew at Pioneer (we will have a NH state IDPA), and helping out at SIG (USPSA/ A7) this year.

 

[Lugnut]

I can always count on a little Indoor Nats postmortem here.... here's my 2 cents.

The staff worked their ass off and I appreciate that. They made huge commitments, more than most can imagine.

I hate any kind of pick up guns- period. If it was a CZ I wouldn't like it. No place for them in any major matches IMO. That being said- there aren't many places in the northeast to shoot matches like this in the winter. If S&W is going to let us use their facilities- I guess they get some slack. On the other hand if they want some good PR- set up a range where shooters can try some of their newer guns. I might like the SHIELD for it's purpose but not at a major match.. especially with ammo that's not mine. The PU gun cost me a potential place or two but didn't matter to me this time.

I don't like having squads of 14 people, listening to 3-5 minutes of the COF description and then getting no time to see anything before shooting. I appreciate the thoroughness of the staff but with all the weird shooting positions, etc it's not fair the only one or two get to see anything before the shooting commences. Yeah I understand no individual walkthroughs are allowed but when stages are complex and some people get walkthroughs it's not fair. But I will repeat- the CSOs and SOs were VERY clear in describing the COFs, no issues here with me all.

All of the props worked very well. Some of the stages were very challenging but in some cases people let the stages be more challenging than they were. I saw this on the stage where you shot out of the window of the car- #13. Staff was very friendly and helpful and patient. Thanks again. Lou and the staff clearly wanted shooters to enjoy themselves and I did.

The bowling stage was very creative as were others. The strobe light had no effect on me in the least... hardly even noticed it. I don't care for dim light stages because I have black front sights on my guns- that's my choice and can deal with it sometimes. As long as they allow flashlights it's all good. My eyes aren't that of a 20 year old but neither is my body. It is what it is.

The banquet was awesome and the food was great. They gave away a ton of guns... I just wasn't lucky enough to win anything there either. The opportunity of seeing friends that I don't get to see often enough is also a bonus.

This year it wasn't really the lighting, my speed reloads or my concealment garment that got me. I just didn't execute well. But there were many that did- my hats off to them. Including folks in this thread- Eric, Nick, Rob, etc.

Thanks again to S&W and the entire staff.

 

[Darkwood Arms]

This year it wasn't really the lighting, my speed reloads or my concealment garment that got me. I just didn't execute well. But there were many that did- my hats off to them. Including folks in this thread- Eric, Nick, Rob, etc.

Thanks again to S&W and the entire staff.

Thank you very much for your kind words and for appreciating our efforts.

 

[BigDaddyAl]

If anyone is interested, here is my video from shooting on Thursday.

2013 S&W IDPA Indoor Nationals - AVail - YouTube

 

[testosterone]

I'm trying to figure out which one you mean by this but can't quite figure it out.

I think he is referring to stage 1, where you were required to take the first target on the move, and then required to take 1 target in the rear array on the move as you advanced to the second shooting position.

This was not consistent from our observation.

 

[earthshine402]

I think he is referring to stage 1, where you were required to take the first target on the move, and then required to take 1 target in the rear array on the move as you advanced to the second shooting position.

This was not consistent from our observation.

Ahh, yes, I also observed very wishy-washy calls there. I saw some guys draw, move, shoot the static, and continue to shoot the drop turner and swinger while walking... one guy was moving slowly and did not get a PE, and another guy was moving faster and did get the PE. The "no moving while shooting the moving targets" was probably intended for safety - to not shoot the range walls.

Also, several people did not take that rear target on the move and got away with it. I did not see any PE's called for not moving for the second target. I took that one on the move as the description intended.

I did not understand how the hell "cover" was really used at the end of the dock there, particularly the right targets, so I just did like others have mentioned "listen to what you are supposed to do, and shoot it within their rules" approach.

 

[m91196]

With 18 round maximum round count and running a 200 round match indoors you see more extreme "themes" than any other match.
The thought is its an expensive match to shoot, try to give out some eye candy.
As far as consistency, that is one of my concerns as well. I ran every shooter thru stage 3 on Thursday, Friday and Saturday in hopes of avoiding different interpretations of sometimes subjective rules.
Stage 4 being an "standards" we used multiple SO's to keep things moving with little risk of interpretive rulings.
I would also prefer the stage description to be "start at the doorway and engage 9 targets with 2 rounds using IDPA rules" but I don't see that any time soon.

 

[IDPA Mike]

Driving home Sunday am

 

[WeedWhacker]

The match is over, great times were had on Stage 12 and 13. Great entertainment value was had for sure!!!!

Potentially some familar faces in this video. MWT had a chance to run a stage this year. Stage 13 Road Rage was chosen from NER 2012 to be run at this event. Its great to see someone like Jerry Miculek run a stage right in front of your eyes!!! Being an SO surely has some distinct advantages!!!

For your viewing please.... MWT running Jerry Miculek

 

[DrNVP]

The match is over, great times were had on Stage 12 and 13. Great entertainment value was had for sure!!!!

Potentially some familar faces in this video. MWT had a chance to run a stage this year. Stage 13 Road Rage was chosen from NER 2012 to be run at this event. Its great to see someone like Jerry Miculek run a stage right in front of your eyes!!! Being an SO surely has some distinct advantages!!!

For your viewing please.... MWT running Jerry Miculek

Awesome! one of my favorite stages at NER Glad they included it

 

[scooter]

The match is over, great times were had on Stage 12 and 13. Great entertainment value was had for sure!!!!

Potentially some familar faces in this video. MWT had a chance to run a stage this year. Stage 13 Road Rage was chosen from NER 2012 to be run at this event. Its great to see someone like Jerry Miculek run a stage right in front of your eyes!!! Being an SO surely has some distinct advantages!!!

For your viewing please.... MWT running Jerry Miculek

Aaron you look so good on camera