“Large capacity” firearms – explanation desperately needed (long!)

[BuggsBunny]

Dear friends,

A recent WTS thread advertising a Kel-Tec P11 has made me aware that there may be a serious gap in my knowledge of MA firearms law. Here is the WTS thread:

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27815

My confusion has to do with Massachusetts’ definition of the term “large capacity firearm”, and what license is required to purchase those firearms. If any of you have time to read this, and can set me straight, I would be grateful.

To Firtree, who posted the advertisement referenced above, and LenS, whose response to my post in that thread is what led me to question my understanding of the law: Please understand that it is not my desire to be argumentative with either of you. My goal is simply to dispel my confusion immediately since, with the current legal climate in this state, the possible price of remaining ignorant is too high.

Firtree, I hope it’s okay that I use your advertisement as a case study.

Firtree’s thread advertises a Kel-Tec P11 9mm in the following terms (emphasis mine):

Early serial number pistol with a chrome slide and standard sights.
Looks like a pretty low round count (very little wear) but enough
to soften up the trigger pull. Overall very good condition. Includes
one magazine, DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster, High Noon IWB clip
holster and the original box.

Price: $350
I rarely carry it these days and I have an adoption to fund, so cash only, please.

FTF in MA, I live in NAttleboro and work in Waltham. I can travel a
reasonable distance. It has a 10rd. standard capacity, so an LTC-B
will suffice. All applicable laws will be followed.

Regarding Firtree’s stated license requirement, I asked this question in that thread:

I was under the impression that the Kel-Tec P11 can accept S&W magazines of over 10 rounds capacity.

If so, wouldn't this make it a high-capacity [correction: should read “large capacity”] firearm requiring a Class A LTC to purchase?

I've never had a P11, so I may well be in error here. My apologies if this is the case.

LenS responded to my question thus:

Totally irrelevant.

My 1911 can fit a 20+ rd mag in it. Does NOT make it a high-capacity firearm requiring a LTC-A UNLESS I possess both the gun AND the high-capacity magazine.

BB, read the law and explanations more carefully.

I was more than a little concerned by this response, as I had indeed read (not recently, though) what I considered to be the applicable sections of M.G.L. Chapter 140, and I consider myself a careful reader – especially so when it comes to the law.

Curious, I went to the state website and reread the relevant sections of Chapter 140 here:

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopssubtopic&L=3&L0=Home&L1=Firearms+Registration+%26+Laws&L2=Gun+Laws&sid=Eeops

My original question about the Kel-Tec P11 requiring a Class A LTC to purchase was based on the conclusion arrived at by the following syllogism:

A “large capacity firearm” requires a Class A LTC to purchase.

The Kel-Tec P11 is a “large capacity firearm”.

Therefore, the Kel-Tec P11 requires a Class A LTC to purchase.

From LenS’ response to my question, it is obvious that my error must lie in the above syllogism’s minor premise, i.e., “The Kel-Tec P11 is a ‘large capacity firearm’”.

So, somehow, I am misreading the law’s definition of a “large capacity firearm”. However, even after scrutinizing the section quoted below, I still can’t spot my error. Please consider the definitions I quote from M.G.L. Chapter 140, Section 121 and help me clear this up.

The section mentioned above (Firearms sales; definitions; antique firearms; application of law; exceptions) is available in full here:

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm

It states, in part:

Section 121. As used in sections 122 to 131P, inclusive, the following words shall, unless the context clearly requires otherwise, have the following meanings:-

“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured…

The P11 is clearly a “firearm”. What kind of “firearm”, or “weapon”, is it? The below appears to address this.

“Large capacity weapon”, any firearm, rifle or shotgun: … (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device;… The term “large capacity weapon” shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun…

The P11 can accept S&W magazines of capacity over 10 rounds. Do such feeding devices qualify as “large capacity feeding devices”? See below:

“Large capacity feeding device”, (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition…

The S&W 59 series 15-round magazines, which the P11 can accept, clearly fall within this definition.

From this, it seems clear to me that the Kel-Tec P11 is, indeed, a “large capacity weapon”.

Bottom line is, I simply don’t understand what LenS means by saying:

Totally irrelevant.

My 1911 can fit a 20+ rd mag in it. Does NOT make it a high-capacity firearm requiring a LTC-A UNLESS I possess both the gun AND the high-capacity magazine.

BB, read the law and explanations more carefully.

How does a firearm’s “large capacity” status depend upon whether or not its owner possesses the magazines that will realize its “large capacity” potential? The sections of the law that I have quoted above appear to me to clearly state that it is the capability of the gun to accept the magazines that is the criteria for “large capacity” status. I simply don’t understand this. Unless there is a whole other section of the law that I haven’t even seen, I can’t imagine what my misunderstanding is, because I’ve read the quoted sections as “carefully” as I can, and they seem pretty simple.*

Given the dismissive (almost contemptuous ) tone of LenS’ response to my original question for Firtree, I sense that I’m missing something very obvious here. But, regardless of how embarrassing or humiliating it is for my obtuseness to be publicly exposed and rebuked, I need to humble myself and ask someone in the know to explain the law to me.

*The only ambiguity that I can see involves the use of the terms “firearm” and “weapon” to describe the gun in question. Several times, I’ve referred to “large capacity firearms” (in my original, cited post I have corrected my meaningless reference to “high capacity” firearms, substituting the law’s word, “large”), but the only “large capacity” designation that I see in Chapter 140, Section 121 is “large capacity weapon”.

On the other hand, “large capacity firearms” are referenced in Chapter 140, Section 131 (Licenses to carry firearms; Class A and B; conditions and restrictions), available in full here:

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm

In part, this section states:

(a) A Class A license shall entitle a holder thereof to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry: (i) firearms, including large capacity firearms, and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes, subject to such restrictions relative to the possession, use or carrying of firearms as the licensing authority deems proper; and (ii) rifles and shotguns, including large capacity weapons, and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes…

(b) A Class B license shall entitle a holder thereof to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry: (i) non-large capacity firearms and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes…

Okay, that’s about it.

I know this has been atrociously long, so I don’t expect many people to have gotten this far. But if anybody has, and can point out where/how I have misunderstood what firearms require a Class A LTC to buy, please do so.

Thanks and best wishes to all.

 

[Ripach]

IANAL nor do I play one on T.V., I am also not willing to research this because I have a LTC-A so it's moot to me. However in the spirit of helping I have always been under the impression that it is Large Cap if you can get it from the factory large cap. Example: as Len pointed out the 1911, available from most dealers LTC-B but clearly capable of being Large Cap. As far as your quoted section of law, I could argue that just about any weapon or feeding device (revolvers exclude) could indeed be modified to be Large Cap.

 

[jhrosier]

Short answer:
The P11 has never been offered by the manufacturer with a mag larger than 10 rounds. They deliberately did this, to keep it from being classified as "hi cap". The fact that someone else has made 10+ round mags for other guns that can be used in the P11 does not alter its' status.

Jack

 

[Scrivener]

In a literal sense, your analysis is correct. However, it is overbroad as applied to firearms here in MA.

As pretty much any semi-auto is capable of being made "capable of accepting" a so-called "large capacity magazine,' the issue is practicality. It could be simple replacement mag (10/22), a kit requiring only a screwdriver (SKS conversion kit) or a full reworking (Garand converted to take M-14 mags, let us say).

So - how to determine what is "readily capable of accepting?" For practicality's sake, IF the manufacturer ever shipped the gun with a "large capacity magazine," it IS a "large capacity" firearm. It's that simple.

Ever wonder why NO Ruger long arms are on the LC Roster? Easy - Bill Ruger never shipped his guns with such mags to mere civilians because "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds." That's why Mini's and 10/22's are not on the roster and are NOT "large capacity" rifles UNLESS the owner has acquired the aftermarket >10-round mags for them.

So - IF KelTec ever shipped that model with >10 round mags, the gun requires an LTC/A to possess. If not - it doesn't.

Does that help?

 

[vellnueve]

IANAL, but I believe the short story is, if Kel-tec never shipped them with 10+ round mags, and it isn't on the Large Capacity Firearms Roster, it is not Large Capacity.

 

[BuggsBunny]

Ripach wrote:

I am also not willing to research this because I have a LTC-A so it's moot to me.

Happily for me, I do as well.

I could argue that just about any weapon or feeding device (revolvers exclude) could indeed be modified to be Large Cap.

Exactly. When I read these laws, some of the (almost surely deliberate) vagueness is enough to make you throw up your hands.

jhrosier and Scrivener said:

The fact that someone else has made 10+ round mags for other guns that can be used in the P11 does not alter its' status.

For practicality's sake, IF the manufacturer ever shipped the gun with a "large capacity magazine," it IS a "large capacity" firearm. It's that simple.

Guys, you have set my mind at rest. The issue of manufacturer magazines versus aftermarket magazines is where all the confusion originated. I never knew that the law considered them differently; therein lay the rub.

Does that help?

Yes, it absolutely does. Many thanks to all of you for your quick answers.

 

[jdubois]

The goal.org page on large capacity weapons seems to indicate that the state has clarified 'large capacity' to mean either a weapon on the high-cap roster, or you are currently in *direct control* of both the weapon and a high cap feeding device that can be used with the weapon.

http://www.goal.org/misc/faq/largecap.html

 

[BuggsBunny]

The goal.org page on large capacity weapons seems to indicate that the state has clarified 'large capacity' to mean either a weapon on the high-cap roster, or you are currently in *direct control* of both the weapon and a high cap feeding device that can be used with the weapon.

Thank you, jdubois.

There we go. That finally explains what LenS meant when he said that the 1911 would only be considered high capacity if he had the magazine.

In all fairness to people who go to the mass.gov website expecting to be able to read Chapter 140 and feel that they understand what "large capacity" means after they're done reading, WHERE is the above "clarification"?

Isn't the Chapter 140, Section 121 page the appropriate place for such as "clarification" to be noted?

At the very least, shouldn't there be a link on that page that refers the reader to this "clarification"?

Actually, for those of us who read and understand the English language, no "clarification" was needed. The phrase in (ii) of Section 121 that applied to what I thought I needed to know - the phrase "capable of accepting" - doesn't really need any explanation.

The phrase "readily modifiable to accept" does, but that question of modifications didn't apply in this case, as the Kel-Tec P11 requires none to use S&W magazines. Taken literally - as all laws must be, at peril of one's freedom - the definition of "large capacity", or at least the portion of that definition that was relevant to my question for Firtree, was plain as day: if it can accept a "large capacity feeding device", then it's a "large capacity weapon (or firearm?)".

The "clarification" constitutes nothing other than a contradiction of Section 121. Never mind the fact that the roster - which I'm told contains the "clarification" in its heading - is not referenced in Section 121, which, since this section's title includes the word "Definitions", is the logical place that one would go understand the meaning of the terms used in the rest of Chapter 140; a resident of this state should not have to deal with contradictions in the actual text of the law.

From the explanations that have been offered so far, it would seem that my error was not in failing to "read more carefully", as LenS admonished me, but in neglecting to explore more.

Exploration is a good thing, and I like to dig around when I have some reason to believe that there is reason to do so, or that such research will provide me with some helpful information that I don't already have. In this case, I didn't see anything in Section 121 - my natural starting point (and ending point, so far as I knew) - that led me to believe I had to look anywhere else.

You want to know what a "large capacity weapon" is, well, you go to the "Definitions" section, right? Yes, I knew of the existence of the large capacity weapons roster, but there was nothing to tell me that I was missing anything by not consulting it.

Maybe I missed something in Section 121. Maybe there's a link, or some mention made of the state's "clarification". I sure didn't see it.

In the future, I'm going to poke around a lot more regarding such things. But there is a substantial difference between poking around and "reading more carefully".

 

[Len-2A Training]

. . .

 

[BuggsBunny]

LenS,

Thank you for taking the time to explain my error to me. That about wraps things up; I believe I have a pretty clear idea of what the law is now, though not of the reasoning behind it (who would).

I'm grateful that you appeared to not interpret my rather lengthy (impassioned? ) arguments as a hostile or resentful response to your original reply to my post in Firtree's WTS thread. I assure you, there was no hostility on my part, only confusion and serious frustration.

Since it's fairly obvious that I haven't studied law, firearms-related or otherwise, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea for me to gain some basic knowledge about how "sausage is made" . I think I'll try to become better acquainted with the process, and with MA firearms law in particular.

For as long as I've held a license in this state, it's been a Class A, so that has contributed to (though it doesn't excuse) my less-than-rigorous exploration of the distinctions between large and non-large capacity firearms. I really didn't have to worry about it, and so didn't - though, as I mentioned, I did indeed read Chapter 140 before getting my license.

That's it - thanks again for your help.

 

[gws1063]

Reading through this thread, a question about the practical application of the large capacity issue came to mind.

Suppose that one has an LTC-A. One acquires a large capacity weapon not yet on the roster, such as a vz/CZ82. Or perhaps acquires a firearm (intentionally?) not on the roster (non-Iver Johnson M1 Carbine) for which one already possesses a large capacity feeding device.

Do you check off the "High Capacity" box on the FA-10? I would presume so, but the only reason I can see for that checkbox is to catch the unwary LTC-B holder.

Regards,
Gary

 

[LoginName]

Reading through this thread, a question about the practical application of the large capacity issue came to mind.

Suppose that one has an LTC-A. One acquires a large capacity weapon not yet on the roster, such as a vz/CZ82. Or perhaps acquires a firearm (intentionally?) not on the roster (non-Iver Johnson M1 Carbine) for which one already possesses a large capacity feeding device.

Do you check off the "High Capacity" box on the FA-10? I would presume so, but the only reason I can see for that checkbox is to catch the unwary LTC-B holder.

Regards,
Gary

Yes.

NOTE: Unless otherwise exempted by M.G.L. c. 140, §121, the term ‘large capacity weapon’ shall apply to all semiautomatic weapons equipped with a large capacity feeding device, including any such weapons not listed on this roster.”

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/largecap_10_2007.pdf

 

[Len-2A Training]

BB, glad I could help.

It ain't easy to understand, that is for sure.

 

[lewis25]

I'm a little confused still. My little brother is a MA resident and he is 17 years old. He wants to buy an AR-15 from bushmaster. He has his F.I.D card but is that enough if he wants to buy a rifle that only comes with a 10 round magazine.

This is the rifle he is looking at.

http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_PCWA2S20DCM8.asp

Thanks for the help

 

[jdubois]

I'm a little confused still.

Not sure why. Just look at the large capacity weapons roster. The XM-15 is listed. So you need at least an LTC-B to possess one.

 

[vellnueve]

No, all ARs will require LTC-B.