BuggsBunny
NES Member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2007
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Dear friends,
A recent WTS thread advertising a Kel-Tec P11 has made me aware that there may be a serious gap in my knowledge of MA firearms law. Here is the WTS thread:
http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27815
My confusion has to do with Massachusetts’ definition of the term “large capacity firearm”, and what license is required to purchase those firearms. If any of you have time to read this, and can set me straight, I would be grateful.
To Firtree, who posted the advertisement referenced above, and LenS, whose response to my post in that thread is what led me to question my understanding of the law: Please understand that it is not my desire to be argumentative with either of you. My goal is simply to dispel my confusion immediately since, with the current legal climate in this state, the possible price of remaining ignorant is too high.
Firtree, I hope it’s okay that I use your advertisement as a case study.
Firtree’s thread advertises a Kel-Tec P11 9mm in the following terms (emphasis mine):
Regarding Firtree’s stated license requirement, I asked this question in that thread:
LenS responded to my question thus:
I was more than a little concerned by this response, as I had indeed read (not recently, though) what I considered to be the applicable sections of M.G.L. Chapter 140, and I consider myself a careful reader – especially so when it comes to the law.
Curious, I went to the state website and reread the relevant sections of Chapter 140 here:
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopssubtopic&L=3&L0=Home&L1=Firearms+Registration+%26+Laws&L2=Gun+Laws&sid=Eeops
My original question about the Kel-Tec P11 requiring a Class A LTC to purchase was based on the conclusion arrived at by the following syllogism:
A “large capacity firearm” requires a Class A LTC to purchase.
The Kel-Tec P11 is a “large capacity firearm”.
Therefore, the Kel-Tec P11 requires a Class A LTC to purchase.
From LenS’ response to my question, it is obvious that my error must lie in the above syllogism’s minor premise, i.e., “The Kel-Tec P11 is a ‘large capacity firearm’”.
So, somehow, I am misreading the law’s definition of a “large capacity firearm”. However, even after scrutinizing the section quoted below, I still can’t spot my error. Please consider the definitions I quote from M.G.L. Chapter 140, Section 121 and help me clear this up.
The section mentioned above (Firearms sales; definitions; antique firearms; application of law; exceptions) is available in full here:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
It states, in part:
The P11 is clearly a “firearm”. What kind of “firearm”, or “weapon”, is it? The below appears to address this.
The P11 can accept S&W magazines of capacity over 10 rounds. Do such feeding devices qualify as “large capacity feeding devices”? See below:
The S&W 59 series 15-round magazines, which the P11 can accept, clearly fall within this definition.
From this, it seems clear to me that the Kel-Tec P11 is, indeed, a “large capacity weapon”.
Bottom line is, I simply don’t understand what LenS means by saying:
How does a firearm’s “large capacity” status depend upon whether or not its owner possesses the magazines that will realize its “large capacity” potential? The sections of the law that I have quoted above appear to me to clearly state that it is the capability of the gun to accept the magazines that is the criteria for “large capacity” status. I simply don’t understand this. Unless there is a whole other section of the law that I haven’t even seen, I can’t imagine what my misunderstanding is, because I’ve read the quoted sections as “carefully” as I can, and they seem pretty simple.*
Given the dismissive (almost contemptuous ) tone of LenS’ response to my original question for Firtree, I sense that I’m missing something very obvious here. But, regardless of how embarrassing or humiliating it is for my obtuseness to be publicly exposed and rebuked, I need to humble myself and ask someone in the know to explain the law to me.
*The only ambiguity that I can see involves the use of the terms “firearm” and “weapon” to describe the gun in question. Several times, I’ve referred to “large capacity firearms” (in my original, cited post I have corrected my meaningless reference to “high capacity” firearms, substituting the law’s word, “large”), but the only “large capacity” designation that I see in Chapter 140, Section 121 is “large capacity weapon”.
On the other hand, “large capacity firearms” are referenced in Chapter 140, Section 131 (Licenses to carry firearms; Class A and B; conditions and restrictions), available in full here:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm
In part, this section states:
Okay, that’s about it.
I know this has been atrociously long, so I don’t expect many people to have gotten this far. But if anybody has, and can point out where/how I have misunderstood what firearms require a Class A LTC to buy, please do so.
Thanks and best wishes to all.
A recent WTS thread advertising a Kel-Tec P11 has made me aware that there may be a serious gap in my knowledge of MA firearms law. Here is the WTS thread:
http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27815
My confusion has to do with Massachusetts’ definition of the term “large capacity firearm”, and what license is required to purchase those firearms. If any of you have time to read this, and can set me straight, I would be grateful.
To Firtree, who posted the advertisement referenced above, and LenS, whose response to my post in that thread is what led me to question my understanding of the law: Please understand that it is not my desire to be argumentative with either of you. My goal is simply to dispel my confusion immediately since, with the current legal climate in this state, the possible price of remaining ignorant is too high.
Firtree, I hope it’s okay that I use your advertisement as a case study.
Firtree’s thread advertises a Kel-Tec P11 9mm in the following terms (emphasis mine):
Early serial number pistol with a chrome slide and standard sights.
Looks like a pretty low round count (very little wear) but enough
to soften up the trigger pull. Overall very good condition. Includes
one magazine, DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster, High Noon IWB clip
holster and the original box.
Price: $350
I rarely carry it these days and I have an adoption to fund, so cash only, please.
FTF in MA, I live in NAttleboro and work in Waltham. I can travel a
reasonable distance. It has a 10rd. standard capacity, so an LTC-B
will suffice. All applicable laws will be followed.
Regarding Firtree’s stated license requirement, I asked this question in that thread:
I was under the impression that the Kel-Tec P11 can accept S&W magazines of over 10 rounds capacity.
If so, wouldn't this make it a high-capacity [correction: should read “large capacity”] firearm requiring a Class A LTC to purchase?
I've never had a P11, so I may well be in error here. My apologies if this is the case.
LenS responded to my question thus:
Totally irrelevant.
My 1911 can fit a 20+ rd mag in it. Does NOT make it a high-capacity firearm requiring a LTC-A UNLESS I possess both the gun AND the high-capacity magazine.
BB, read the law and explanations more carefully.
I was more than a little concerned by this response, as I had indeed read (not recently, though) what I considered to be the applicable sections of M.G.L. Chapter 140, and I consider myself a careful reader – especially so when it comes to the law.
Curious, I went to the state website and reread the relevant sections of Chapter 140 here:
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopssubtopic&L=3&L0=Home&L1=Firearms+Registration+%26+Laws&L2=Gun+Laws&sid=Eeops
My original question about the Kel-Tec P11 requiring a Class A LTC to purchase was based on the conclusion arrived at by the following syllogism:
A “large capacity firearm” requires a Class A LTC to purchase.
The Kel-Tec P11 is a “large capacity firearm”.
Therefore, the Kel-Tec P11 requires a Class A LTC to purchase.
From LenS’ response to my question, it is obvious that my error must lie in the above syllogism’s minor premise, i.e., “The Kel-Tec P11 is a ‘large capacity firearm’”.
So, somehow, I am misreading the law’s definition of a “large capacity firearm”. However, even after scrutinizing the section quoted below, I still can’t spot my error. Please consider the definitions I quote from M.G.L. Chapter 140, Section 121 and help me clear this up.
The section mentioned above (Firearms sales; definitions; antique firearms; application of law; exceptions) is available in full here:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
It states, in part:
Section 121. As used in sections 122 to 131P, inclusive, the following words shall, unless the context clearly requires otherwise, have the following meanings:-
“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured…
The P11 is clearly a “firearm”. What kind of “firearm”, or “weapon”, is it? The below appears to address this.
“Large capacity weapon”, any firearm, rifle or shotgun: … (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device;… The term “large capacity weapon” shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun…
The P11 can accept S&W magazines of capacity over 10 rounds. Do such feeding devices qualify as “large capacity feeding devices”? See below:
“Large capacity feeding device”, (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition…
The S&W 59 series 15-round magazines, which the P11 can accept, clearly fall within this definition.
From this, it seems clear to me that the Kel-Tec P11 is, indeed, a “large capacity weapon”.
Bottom line is, I simply don’t understand what LenS means by saying:
Totally irrelevant.
My 1911 can fit a 20+ rd mag in it. Does NOT make it a high-capacity firearm requiring a LTC-A UNLESS I possess both the gun AND the high-capacity magazine.
BB, read the law and explanations more carefully.
How does a firearm’s “large capacity” status depend upon whether or not its owner possesses the magazines that will realize its “large capacity” potential? The sections of the law that I have quoted above appear to me to clearly state that it is the capability of the gun to accept the magazines that is the criteria for “large capacity” status. I simply don’t understand this. Unless there is a whole other section of the law that I haven’t even seen, I can’t imagine what my misunderstanding is, because I’ve read the quoted sections as “carefully” as I can, and they seem pretty simple.*
Given the dismissive (almost contemptuous ) tone of LenS’ response to my original question for Firtree, I sense that I’m missing something very obvious here. But, regardless of how embarrassing or humiliating it is for my obtuseness to be publicly exposed and rebuked, I need to humble myself and ask someone in the know to explain the law to me.
*The only ambiguity that I can see involves the use of the terms “firearm” and “weapon” to describe the gun in question. Several times, I’ve referred to “large capacity firearms” (in my original, cited post I have corrected my meaningless reference to “high capacity” firearms, substituting the law’s word, “large”), but the only “large capacity” designation that I see in Chapter 140, Section 121 is “large capacity weapon”.
On the other hand, “large capacity firearms” are referenced in Chapter 140, Section 131 (Licenses to carry firearms; Class A and B; conditions and restrictions), available in full here:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm
In part, this section states:
(a) A Class A license shall entitle a holder thereof to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry: (i) firearms, including large capacity firearms, and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes, subject to such restrictions relative to the possession, use or carrying of firearms as the licensing authority deems proper; and (ii) rifles and shotguns, including large capacity weapons, and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes…
(b) A Class B license shall entitle a holder thereof to purchase, rent, lease, borrow, possess and carry: (i) non-large capacity firearms and feeding devices and ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes…
Okay, that’s about it.
I know this has been atrociously long, so I don’t expect many people to have gotten this far. But if anybody has, and can point out where/how I have misunderstood what firearms require a Class A LTC to buy, please do so.
Thanks and best wishes to all.
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