You’re a dirty,dirty,dirty.. reload, Does this crimp make my gun look dirty to you?

[Gammon]

Gammon, you're just following common logic, which is actually wrong.

Pistol ammo quality still has an effect on the end results, though no where as near as much as rifle ammo (for most shooters especially). Truth be known on this part, the reason most pistol loads aren't as good as factory ammo is due to poor load selection, usually based on price. That's OK to do, if you are willing to live with the results. And, it's certainly safe. There are a few loads out there that work, even though the powder choice is not optimum. And, in the 45, there's long evidence of folks using a powder that's definitely too fast. It works, no doubt to that, but it also doesn't always work. And, using the right powder may cost a little more, but is worth it (in my mind anyways). The factories generally use the right powder and pass the cost on to the consumer.

Using a good progressive press isn't as bad as you think. No, I don't (and won't) make match rifle ammo on my Dillon. But, my father did, and strangely enough, it worked. Granted, he didn't size there, but he could have. And, this wasn't .5 MOA ammo for position shooting, it was .25 MOA ammo for benchrest score shooting. By the way, the "X ring" on those 100 yard targets is a .062" dot.

The bottom line is simple. For pistol or rifle ammo, you can make better than you can buy. Shotgun shells are different, but only due to hull deterioration (crimp mostly).

Reloading well isn't all that hard, it sure isn't "black magic".

I am not following "common logic". My views are the result of 500,000 plus rounds worth of reloading experience.

 

[Steve Marshall]

EVERY round, of the 100's of thousands I've reloaded, has been better than factory loads. Well, that's not quite true. In fact some of my reloads were stinkers. You find this out by testing. If you have more time than brains you might even try little to no crimp, you know, just to see for yourself. There was a time when I chronographed hundreds of rounds a week. Elmer would have been proud. I tested rounds that barely left the barrel. I tested rounds that qualified as WARM. In all of that testing I realized one thing germane to this thread. Taper crimp pretty much is only needed for reliability in feeding. I do taper crimp every round that is likely to be fired in a semi-automatic firearm be it handgun or rifle. Yes, I taper crimp .223/.308/30-06. You know that burr that is sometimes left when you trim a case? Guess what happens if you don't remove it. Even when you take pains to remove that burr you can sometimes feel "something". Taper crimping takes care of that "something".

 

[EddieCoyle]

You know that burr that is sometimes left when you trim a case? Guess what happens if you don't remove it. Even when you take pains to remove that burr you can sometimes feel "something". Taper crimping takes care of that "something".

Very interesting. I've never considered that. Definitely something to think about.

 

[Nickle]

I chamfer (or better said - deburr) cases after trimming.

 

[HarryPottar]

Then swap to a 14lb recoil spring, I bet you'll love that gun even more

Just out of curiosity what's in there (S&W 1911 e series) now? Will it make it softer recoil. The recoil is not that bad, I like the heavier feel. All my other hand guns are 9mm or 380 and I like shooting this the best, but don't tell the others.


Btw, went to MFS last night (Sunday) to test the new crimp, however it was so busy, lines out the door and up the hill I decided to shoot another day.

Will the crimp be still too tight, too light, will the FPS increase.... Same thread, same time next week.
to be continued....

oh saturday morning shows are not what they used to be.

 

[SJan]

Stock spring should be 16 #
Let me see if I can explain this

Basically you can tune how the gun feels when shooting softer reloads by also using a softer spring. The slide moves backwards with force relative to the load (powder charge/burn rate, bullet weight) and then moves forward with force from the recoil spring. In the middle is an impact. You don't want to run a light spring with full house +p ammo, it would be brutal on your wrists as well as the frame impact. However, if you want to tailor a gun for something like USPSA shooting, a soft recoiling load with a lighter spring together will make the backward and forward slide movement lighter, therefor allowing faster followup shots.

eta: this is a great video explaining it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3UVLm2GajI

 

[HarryPottar]

Ok, Verdict is in, it was the crimp being too tight. I went to MFS tonight, no way to use the choreograph I have to wait until I can go to Hopkington for that. Anyway, same load data just backed off the crimp a lot, just enough to remove the bell then a 8th turn just to make sure it's crimped. They shot a lot softer and had great grouping and they shot where I pointed, prior to that they shot a little left and down.

Better still the gun was a lot cleaner when finished. Thanks for everyones help.

Harry

 

[Steve Marshall]

I deburr after trimming. Then I tumble. Then I crimp. Nobody pays me by the hour to do so hence my time is the only cost. I don't measure the crimp. I feel it. I set it so it feels smooth.

 

[highscore]

I know it's not pistol loads but this is one of the first reloading videos I watched when I started reloading. A member at our club had it on CD which I believe he copied from VHS?
if you watch it I believe he says he/they loaded the Palma match ammo on a Dillon progressive.

If I can get the old PC cranked up later I will post something I can't get with any factory ammo shooting my M1 carbine. I had a absolutely perfect day today with some test groups.

My son shot on the Under 21 Palma team a few years back and one of his teammates looked at him like he was crazy when my son told him that he weighed out his charges. The other shooter reloaded all his ammo on a 550. This didn't hold him back as he shot very good scores.

At least at one point, Tubb loaded his ammo on a modified Dillon progressive. He had a prometheus powder scale mounted independently of his press/bench so nothing would influence the scale. There were other mods to his set-up to take up some of the "slop" of the toolhead. He had planned to market this but to my knowledge, he never did although I really didn't keep track of it.

 

[spt_1955]

I've been reloading for less than a year and only reload 9MM, 45ACP, and .40S&W but I assumed that a case gauge was required equipment. I would never think of reloading without one.

 

[Nickle]

People weighing powder is always a good one. That's an old myth that it needs to be done for accuracy.

It's funny that I have yet to see a benchrest competitor weigh his charges when loading at a match. We can't, it takes too much time, that we don't have, and it does little to nothing to improve the group.

And, yeah, I do know some of these guys below, these are the current IBS group records. Most, if not all of these guys weigh their powder other than setting the measure.

http://internationalbenchrest.com/records/group/index.php

SMALLEST 10 SHOT GROUPS BY CLASS
Class Distance Shots Group Name Date
HB 100 yds. 10 0.119 Robert Maretzo 9/10/83
HB 100 Meters 10 0.183 Mike Bennett 8/26/02
HB 200 yds. 10 0.245 Ed Watson 7/26/99
HB 200 Meters 10 0.291 Butch Wahl 8/27/02
HB 300 yds. 10 0.669 Rrobert Adamowicz 6/13/92
HB 300 Meters 10 0.918 Omar Rhinehart 8/30/57


SMALLEST 5 SHOT GROUPS BY CLASS
Class Distance Shots Group Name Date
HB 100 yds. 5 0.063 Hap Zeiser 8/30/58
HB 200 yds. 5 0.096 Russell Rains 8/14/12
HB 300 yds. 5 0.739 Wayne Miller 9/19/82
HB 300 Meters 5 0.605 Paul Gottschall 5/9/65
LV 100 yds. 5 0.051 Mark Shepler 5/5/07
LV 100 Meters 5 0.085 Bart Weider 9/3/84
LV 200 yds. 5 0.091 David Farrar 5/14/06
LV 200 Meters 5 0.197 Dave Pessall 8/29/02
LV 300 yds. 5 0.240 Dale Boop 7/30/00
LV 300 Meters 5 0.887 Dave Hall 5/30/69
SP 100 yds. 5 0.060 Jack Neary 8/10/05
SP 100 Meters 5 0.090 Jim Oliver 8/31/85
SP 200 yds. 5 0.140 Lester Bruno 8/23/90
SP 200 Meters 5 0.245 Mike Gamble 8/29/02
SP 300 yds. 5 0.329 Jeff Cowles 6/8/91
SP 300 Meters 5 0.817 Dave Kiel 5/30/69
HV 100 yds. 5 0.052 John Ventriglia 8/16/80
HV 100 Meters 5 0.061 Allie Euber 9/6/81
HV 200 yds. 5 0.109 Jim Greene 7/10/94
HV 200 Meters 5 0.133 Gianfranco Manfredini 4/27/86
HV 300 yds. 5 0.259 Tom Horenburg 6/20/87
HV 300 Meters 5 0.787 Marlin Bassett 10/6/68

 

[5 DOLLAR FOOT LONG]

I do 4.6 of TG with the same bullets, it works fine. No matter what ammo you use you're gonna have to clean the thing anyway. 6.4 of CFE pistol works great with those bullets too, I think its on the hot side though based on how the brass always hits the timing guy in the face at steel challenge.

 

[Gammon]

I've been reloading for less than a year and only reload 9MM, 45ACP, and .40S&W but I assumed that a case gauge was required equipment. I would never think of reloading without one.

I reloaded for many years without the use of a case gauge. For pistol loads the barrel can be used.

 

[mac1911]

Will the optimum charge weight system work with pistol ?

 

[noylj]

How do you do a ladder-test on a pistol? You would have to go out to at least 100 yards for the test, have a huge target, and the range of charge weights just aren't that large for a decent ladder.
If you just mean that you loaded up 5-10 rounds each at three or four charge weights from start to max, that isn't a "ladder" test but the standard load work test.
Dirty? How was ACCURACY? Guns can run for a long time dirty. I have shot several seasons of IPSC and PPC, where I cleaned the gun ONCE a year (200gn L-SWC and 6.0gn Unique for IPSC and 5.0gn for PPC: thousands of rounds a year).
Crimp has NO EFFECT on handgun performance (unless you are shooting a hand-rifle, like a T/C Contender (capable of sub-1-MOA groups) or the crimp is so excessive that it crumples the case and the round won't chamber). ALL the crimp for a .45 Auto is directed at removing the case mouth flare so the rounds will chamber. If the rounds chamber, the crimp is "good enough."
Case Gage? I ain't had a use for a case gage in over 40 years and don't think I ever will. I use the barrel of the gun and I make up inert dummy rounds to verify die settings and feeding/chambering. Just another TOY. IF, and I do mean IF, you are in a national competition and will be penalized for a round not chambering, then you MIGHT justify a case gage. However, I would still use the barrel of the gun for such. Lots of toys, but none are needed and most are more a waste of time than anything else. Everybody will tell you what you NEED to do, but none of them have data showing that it made any difference. The best I have seen in the last 15 years of "anal" reloading articles is "it can't hurt."
READ your manuals and ignore most of what you read on the 'net--including me, if you want to. Stay safe, and shoot more.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Will the optimum charge weight system work with pistol ?

Only if you and the pistol are capable of shooting MOA-ish groups at 100+ yards.

 

[jtnf]

Same issue with TiteGroup and AA#2 in 38spc with 148grn DEWC.
TiteGroup was VERY dirty... ridiculously so. I had to go find a rag and clean the gun between loads.
The #2 was a little cleaner, but still smokey.

The DEWCs have crimp groves, which I used in the case of the TG. The #2 I seated a little deeper, but in neither case were the projjies flush.

I'm going to increase the loads to max OR make the DEWCs flush, unless the collected wisdom here advises otherwise.

 

[Gammon]

Strange, I found TG to be very clean in .40 loads (155 gr swc lead at about 1000 fps) out of my Para P 16/Barsto barrel.

 

[dcmdon]

I use clays for target loads and it is SQUEAKY clean. No smoke.