You’re a dirty,dirty,dirty.. reload, Does this crimp make my gun look dirty to you?

[HarryPottar]

Does this crimp make my gun look dirty to you?

Caliber: 45acp
Brass Cleaning: Dry
Bullet: Berry’s RN Copper Plated 230gr .452
Brass: Mixed
Primer: CCI 300, Large Pistol Primer
COL: 1.250
Powder: Tight Group 4.5 grains.
Purpose: Plinking very evil paper targets


Retail Base Line: Wally World Winchester white box 200 round 230gr range pack.


Once again thanks for everyones help in my reloading journey.


I purchased my first 1911 a Smith & Wesson E series, very pleased with it so far.


I started reloading 45 acp on the Dillion 650XL, I did my ladder set and compared the retail base line with the chronograph and the 4.5grains was with in 50fps.


However, I noticed that the gun is a lot dirtier when using the reloads over retail, also the reloads shoot a little lower and to the left.


I did some googling and there is lots of talk about dirty powder, slow/fast burn and the winchester 231 is cleaner that tight group.


I know that components are subjective, but the other thing that came up was the crimp. I saw mentioned in a couple of places that a tight crimp can cause dirty gun.


The bottom of the brass where the powder is, measures 0.4730 and where the crimp is measures 0.4700. It does not look tight but I don’t have the experience yet ti visually judge.


Should I ease off on the crimp, should I increase the powder to get the extra 50fps, should I change powder or just buy share in CLP


Thanks in advance


Harry

 

[Chet0729]

I have the same issue with Bullseye. I like the way it meters and it covers a lot of different rounds but it is dirty but it is not as bad as some of the cheaper ammo I have shot in the past.

 

[drgrant]

Titegroup is too fast/snappy for .45. Try to get some hands on Unique, load them up to 1.255 with 6.2 grs of unique.... you'll like those a lot better. Crimp the cartridge until the case dents the bullet, then back off until it stops denting the bullet. (this is my unscientific crimping method, but it works. )

-Mike

 

[highscore]

Bullseye powder if filthy to start with. A loose crimp will allow unburnt powder to escape the case and cause your gun to be...dirty,too much crimp can be dangerous boosting pressure. If you load too light and the pressure doesn't seal off the chamber, it causes unburnt powder and other filth to escape the case and outside the case. Check to see if there is a soot stain on the outside of the case. I get this with light bullseye loads which is very accurate but gentle recoiling. Don't think it hurts anything.

 

[SJan]

Titegroup is too fast/snappy for .45.

No its not

Hodgen Clays is faster than Titegroup and is a top choice for a soft recoiling 45 load

I've used Titegroup for several calibers myself, it works, but I'm convinced its not the best choice for any.

 

[mac1911]

No its not

Hodgen Clays is faster than Titegroup and is a top choice for a soft recoiling 45 load

I've used Titegroup for several calibers myself, it works, but I'm convinced its not the best choice for any.

I use clays, it's a nice soft shooting load I only crimp enough to get rid of the flare. I also use cast bullets. I can't say it's a "clean" powder. I do how ever get some very good accuracy .

 

[noddaduma]

I use Power Pistol and it's fairly clean

 

[HarryPottar]

Check to see if there is a soot stain on the outside of the case. I get this with light bullseye loads which is very accurate but gentle recoiling. Don't think it hurts anything.

Yes, that was one of our observations that the brass was dirty too. Need to try and source some Winchester 231 in MA, seems to be popular for 45acp and one that the layman manual suggests.

Thanks

Harry

 

[headednorth]

My understanding (and Im still learning as I go, so constructive criticism is welcome) is plated bullets should be charged to only around the middle of the range between start and max for FMJ data. This keep the velocities withing the acceptable ranges recommended by plated bullet manufacturers but may not allow for the case to expand in the chamber enough to make a good seal, resulting in dirty looking cases.

 

[HarryPottar]

My understanding (and Im still learning as I go, so constructive criticism is welcome) is plated bullets should be charged to only around the middle of the range between start and max for FMJ data. This keep the velocities withing the acceptable ranges recommended by plated bullet manufacturers but may not allow for the case to expand in the chamber enough to make a good seal, resulting in dirty looking cases.

According to the bullet manufacture they should handle velocities up to 1,250 fps, which is above what I believe 45 acp should be run at.



According to the load data it should be between 4.0 and 4.8 grains, my ladder set was from 4.2 to 4.7, I went with 4.5 as it seemed a little less muzzle flip and was only 50fps under the retail base line.

I have room to increase the charge, I can increase the tightgroup to 4.7/4.8 but if I can get some Winchester 231 locally I would like to try that. I'm now confused if my crimp is to tight or too lose....

so much to learn.

thanks

harry

 

[xtry51]

I only crimp to remove the flare, not to really indent the neck.

You can get a gauge to check if your cartridge will chamber. Get one and adjust the crimp until it fits in the gauge and stop.

 

[EddieCoyle]

OP - How did they group? I wouldn't worry too much if your reloads don't behave like WWB. If that's what your're striving for, you are setting the bar pretty low.

Bullseye powder if filthy to start with. A loose crimp will allow unburnt powder to escape the case and cause your gun to be...dirty. I believe EC posted on the subject of crimp and advocated shooting close to a paper target and adjusting crimp until you got the least amount of powder burn around the bullet hole.

Not in a million years. This is bad advice. I saw a newbie reloader blow a Delta Elite to bits following this advice. A taper 'crimp' should remove the flare. Any more than that and you are over crimping.

 

[SJan]

According to the bullet manufacture they should handle velocities up to 1,250 fps, which is above what I believe 45 acp should be run at.

230g ? Dial it in for about 740 fps. That will make major PF and shoot better than any factory 45. Then swap to a 14lb recoil spring, I bet you'll love that gun even more

 

[HarryPottar]

OP - How did they group? I wouldn't worry too much if your reloads don't behave like WWB. If that's what your're striving for, you are setting the bar pretty low.A taper 'crimp' should remove the flare. Any more than that and you are over crimping.

Thanks Eddie,

I knew you would know the answer, I plan to come to one of your reloading classes in the new year. I like to have a little understanding of a subject then take a course I personally think you get more out of of course that way.

I digress, the grouping is fine, I'm a new shooter trying to get as much practice as I can the reloads are only a fraction lower and left and might be me. I'm improving with each weekly visit to the range, as I push the target back further I will be more concerned with perfecting reload accuracy.

However with what you state I'm definitely over crimping by a lot. I took out the flare and added some bite. I will back off the crimp quite a bit, I'm calling around looking for some alternative powder.

thanks

harry

 

[highscore]

OP - How did they group? I wouldn't worry too much if your reloads don't behave like WWB. If that's what your're striving for, you are setting the bar pretty low.



Not in a million years. This is bad advice. I saw a newbie reloader blow a Delta Elite to bits following this advice. A taper 'crimp' should remove the flare. Any more than that and you are over crimping.

Sorry for mis-quoting you EC. Was it the 9mm I am thinking about or maybe it wasn't you? I don't crimp anything more than it needs to be. my 45's are crimped just enough to lose the edge which are probably only .002 smaller than the diameter of the case.

 

[Nickle]

Titegroup is too fast/snappy for .45. Try to get some hands on Unique, load them up to 1.255 with 6.2 grs of unique.... you'll like those a lot better. Crimp the cartridge until the case dents the bullet, then back off until it stops denting the bullet. (this is my unscientific crimping method, but it works. )

-Mike

I've made up ammo with 230 gr bullets and 6.0 gr of Unique. A guy shot them and was pretty tickled, he took a 2nd place with them.

OP - How did they group? I wouldn't worry too much if your reloads don't behave like WWB. If that's what your're striving for, you are setting the bar pretty low.

Decent handloads should easily trump ANY factory ammo. Go to a benchrest match, and see how many are using factory ammo. Or standard cartridges for that matter.

Not in a million years. This is bad advice. I saw a newbie reloader blow a Delta Elite to bits following this advice. A taper 'crimp' should remove the flare. Any more than that and you are over crimping.

Very bad advice (not EC, the excessive crimp advice). Straight walled rimless cases headspace on the end of the case. Excessive crimp ends up the same as excessive headspace. They're the reason taper crimp exists. I crimp just enough to remove the flare.

And, if you think a lack of crimp is going to cause problems, guess how much I crimp 264 Win Mag ammo (or any other high recoil stuff). Yup, you got it, I don't crimp them. If that recoil won't cause a problem, I don't think 45 ACP will.

 

[shanef]

pull the projectile from one of your reloads and check the "indent ring" from crimp.....

Are you case gauging?

 

[Nickle]

pull the projectile from one of your reloads and check the "indent ring" from crimp.....

Are you case gauging?

If you meant my thoughts, I have done that and know. I did add to the last post, to clarify that I actually agree with EC.

And, getting a case gauge is just smart business. I have one in 45 ACP, too.

 

[HarryPottar]

Thanks for all the info.

I have backed off me crimp considerably and have loaded another 100 test rounds still using tight group and the same 4.5grains.

I will pop to the range tomorrow with the chronograph and clean gun to see how they perform.

By the way, I have case gauges in all the calibers I reload, which help but does not show over crimping

I did pull a bullet and there was ring around so I know I over crimp. Now I've just taken off the bell and then an 8th turn in just for luck.

Measuring .4730 with the calipers at the crimp.

I will post some feedback after my visit to the range.

Thanks,

Harry

 

[Gammon]

"Decent handloads" will not "thump" factory ammo. Despite mass production, factory ammo uses techniques and superior components (brand new brass, for example} to produce a consistency that is hard to match. It can be done, but only by painstaking QC loading one round at a time. The average reloader would be hard pressed to match quality factory rounds in a progressive machine.

I had some of my best .40 ammo (once fired Federal brass, WW 231 powder, WW small pistol standard primers, and 180 gr jacketed Montana Gold bullets) loaded in my 1050 fired out of a test barrel and compared to a similar federal load. The factory group was .218 smaller at 25 yds.

Due to the fact that pistol cases shorten with each firing and that most factory chambers are on the large side, most rounds do not headspace on the case rim, but rather on the extractor.

I gauge my taper crimp by the width of the mark that the crimp die leaves on the case mouth. I go for about .040.

My favorite powder for the .45 is WW 231, clean enough for me. I have used Tite Group in 40 extensively and found it to be very clean. TG did not, however, work in my SIG P226 9mm. The gun seemed to be unlocking too soon, damaging case mouths with some failures to eject/extract. Experiments with recoil springs, bullet weights, barrels (new Barsto) and powder charges could not get TG to work. A switch to 231 solved the problem.

 

[Nickle]

"Decent handloads" will not "thump" factory ammo.

In a rifle at least, that statement is totally false. Probably false with a pistol too, just not beat by as much.

Like I mentioned, go to a benchrest shoot, talk to them. And, yeah, I'm one of those guys, have been off and on since the late 60's. I started competition at the ripe old age of 12-13.

Or start here: http://internationalbenchrest.com/

I've made ammo that has shot .2 MOA groups (or smaller). That's no BS. And, I'm nowhere near the best of these guys.

Try duplicating a .200" group at 100 meters with any factory ammo. Even Lapua.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I gauge my taper crimp by the width of the mark that the crimp die leaves on the case mouth. I go for about .040.

Since case wall thickness can vary by up to 0.006" depending on manufacturer, such measurement recommendations are not universally valid.

 

[mac1911]

Even some of my "tossed together" plinking loads will out perform many factory offerings.

Other than some PPU M193 I have yet to find any factory ammo under 60 cents per round that shoot as well and consistent as my "cheap" reloads. 55gn FMJ , assorted cases, surplus powder... other than looking into the shell for a powder check I don't get to anal about these loads and they give me 1.5" or less groups when I bench the gun.

For my 45 and crimp. I didn't have a case gauge at first so I used the barrel. I just adjusted the crimp until the case dropped in and just a touch more.

As for my 45 Loads...... I never found factory 230gn FMJRN ammo that shot as well as my tailored reloads. I also load the 185gn XTP, I tailored these to more of a target load and they shoot very well.

I do how ever shoot cast most of the time. Shoot a 200 gn SWC, light load and fun fun fun. This load has me looking like I can shoot! I'm getting close to keeping 20 rounds slow fire on the B8 target at 25 yards.

 

[highscore]

I've made up ammo with 230 gr bullets and 6.0 gr of Unique. A guy shot them and was pretty tickled, he took a 2nd place with them.



Decent handloads should easily trump ANY factory ammo. Go to a benchrest match, and see how many are using factory ammo. Or standard cartridges for that matter.



Very bad advice (not EC, the excessive crimp advice). Straight walled rimless cases headspace on the end of the case. Excessive crimp ends up the same as excessive headspace. They're the reason taper crimp exists. I crimp just enough to remove the flare.

And, if you think a lack of crimp is going to cause problems, guess how much I crimp 264 Win Mag ammo (or any other high recoil stuff). Yup, you got it, I don't crimp them. If that recoil won't cause a problem, I don't think 45 ACP will.

I edited my original post as i apparently was wrong. Your example with the 264 crimp may work well for you but it is not the answer for all calibers. Some calibers do run better with crimp, the lighter the better.

 

[Nickle]

I edited my original post as i apparently was wrong. Your example with the 264 crimp may work well for you but it is not the answer for all calibers. Some calibers do run better with crimp, the lighter the better.

Some rifle/caliber combinations do work better with a crimp. That said, it sure isn't as needed to keep the bullet in place as is let on. It sure doesn't happen with recoil. An exception to that is lead non-jacketed bullets. They may not move (or much), but they do generally do a little better with at least a very mild crimp.

I'll go a little further and mention that virtually all really good rifle bullets do not have a cannelure, which is really a groove to facilitate crimping.

And, that info on the 264 doesn't just work for me, but most every other good shooter too. Isn't just the 264 either. It's also 222, 222 Mag, 223/5.56, 219 Don Wasp, 22 PPC, 22-250, 220 Swift, 6x47 (both), 243, 244/6mm Rem, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 257 Wby Mag, 6.5x47 Lapua, 260 Rem, 6.5x55, 6.5 Rem Mag, 6.8 SPC, 270, 7mm-08, 7x57, 280 Rem/7mm Rem Exp, 7mm Rem Mag, 308, 30-30 (yup), 7.62x39, 30-06, 7.62x54R (yup), all 300 Mags, 303 Brit, etc, etc.

See a trend here?

And, the only reason I put ANY taper crimp on the 45 (the real issue here) is to remove flare. Of course, the reason I flare them in the first place is to facilitate loading, especially in the Dillon. And. I use a taper crimp on those, never a roll crimp.

I'm not a pompous person, I just happen to have a little more than average experience in this area, and a modicum of modesty too.

 

[Gammon]

I should have qualified my statement in that I was referring to pistol ammo produced in a progressive machine. I did state that ammo painstakingly prepared on a single stage press could equal or best factory ammo which is probably an accurate description of the ammo prepared by the bench rest shooters.

Ammunition tailored to a specific firearm will often beat factory loads. I should have mentioned that in my response. I was speaking in general terms dealing with the quality of factory ammo vs home grown, not loads tailored to a specific gun, something I rarely do with the exception of my 223 AR. I did qualify my statement by referring to "quality" factory ammo. There is some real junk on the market, particularly in 223; I found out the hard way.

 

[Gammon]

Since case wall thickness can vary by up to 0.006" depending on manufacturer, such measurement recommendations are not universally valid.

I realize that my method is not all that precise but it has worked for me for many years. Your statement on case wall thickness is correct, but it is only one factor the reloader has to deal with unless he (or she) is willing to sort all of the brass by manufacturer and perhaps number of times fired and then adjust the crimp die for this particular batch.

My most frequently loaded brass is sued for practice and is comprised of many brands fired uncounted times. Used up cases are culled during prep (dry tumbling). This means that I am loading a wide variety of brass which likely varies a lot more than .006. My "eyeball" method of judging proper crimp is just s shorthand method of dealing with widely varying brass.

 

[Nickle]

Gammon, you're just following common logic, which is actually wrong.

Pistol ammo quality still has an effect on the end results, though no where as near as much as rifle ammo (for most shooters especially). Truth be known on this part, the reason most pistol loads aren't as good as factory ammo is due to poor load selection, usually based on price. That's OK to do, if you are willing to live with the results. And, it's certainly safe. There are a few loads out there that work, even though the powder choice is not optimum. And, in the 45, there's long evidence of folks using a powder that's definitely too fast. It works, no doubt to that, but it also doesn't always work. And, using the right powder may cost a little more, but is worth it (in my mind anyways). The factories generally use the right powder and pass the cost on to the consumer.

Using a good progressive press isn't as bad as you think. No, I don't (and won't) make match rifle ammo on my Dillon. But, my father did, and strangely enough, it worked. Granted, he didn't size there, but he could have. And, this wasn't .5 MOA ammo for position shooting, it was .25 MOA ammo for benchrest score shooting. By the way, the "X ring" on those 100 yard targets is a .062" dot.

The bottom line is simple. For pistol or rifle ammo, you can make better than you can buy. Shotgun shells are different, but only due to hull deterioration (crimp mostly).

Reloading well isn't all that hard, it sure isn't "black magic".

 

[mac1911]

I know it's not pistol loads but this is one of the first reloading videos I watched when I started reloading. A member at our club had it on CD which I believe he copied from VHS?
if you watch it I believe he says he/they loaded the Palma match ammo on a Dillon progressive.

If I can get the old PC cranked up later I will post something I can't get with any factory ammo shooting my M1 carbine. I had a absolutely perfect day today with some test groups.

 

[drgrant]

No its not

Hodgen Clays is faster than Titegroup and is a top choice for a soft recoiling 45 load

I've used Titegroup for several calibers myself, it works, but I'm convinced its not the best choice for any.

Might be fine for powder puff crap but I don't roll that way. If you try loading up 230 ball at 800+ fps with titegroup its not pleasant... Unique is a lot better. If I was doing fluff loads I'd go with Win WST. Burns clean as VV almost.