Win 231 in .45 ACP... Recipes?

[drgrant]

I've been poking around for a good load for Win 231 for a 230 gr FMJ load. Winchester lists a max charge of 5.3 on their site but in searching I see a lot of loads that seem to be way higher than that. Did they change the formulation or something? I'm also guessing it's just winchester being cautious. I'd like to end up with a load that does about 830-850 fps out of a 5" 1911, so I can use it for pins. The CCI Blazer brass load I typically use clocks in around ~850 or so.

I've been loading up .45 ACP with Unique for awhile, but I got a can of 231... I think it meters a bit
better. Unique is kinda fun though, watching the numbers bounce all over the place on the chrono, and getting your
arms covered with unburned powder flakes.

-Mike

 

[Rockrivr1]

I've been using 5.2 grns of W231 over Berry's 230gr FMJ. I think this will be a little light for the FPS you are trying to achieve. Out of my S&W 1911 I get the following results with this load.

761
779
740
750
751
761

Average of 757
Power Factor = 174
13% Standard Deviation

This is good enough to make major with a little extra. It's accurate for me so I haven't messed with it much.

 

[EddieCoyle]

5.5 grains of W231 gets me to 800-850.

 

[Scrivener]

231 is fine for .45 ACP, but I think WST is cleaner and the loads are nearly identical. Then again, compared to Unique, anything this side of black powder is cleaner.

WST used to be cheaper, too.

 

[Lugnut]

5.5 grains of W231 gets me to 800-850.

WOW- this isn't out an auto though is it? 230gr??


My S&W 1911 give me a chrono average of about 720 ft/sec with Berry 230gr RN bullets!!!


I've been REAL close to power factor at some matches!

And yes... I too have seen bigger loads... no idea why they suggest 5.2gr as the max!

 

[Bugs100]

Let me add to the confusion. This is the data for 230gr using W231 from Handloaders.com

FMJ 5.4 gr w231 Unknown 1.23" Win LP guest

FMJ 5.7 gr Win 231 830 fps Winchester
Suggested starting load: 5.1 gr

JHP 5.1 gr Win 231 785 fps Winchester
Suggested starting load: 4.6 gr

FMJ 5.0 gr Winchester 231 825 fps 1.285" Win LP

From Hornady

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Winchester 231 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP

 

[drgrant]

Thanks for the help guys.

I ended up making myself a "Variety pack" ranging in loads from 5.0 to 5.5 grs
of 231.

I'll start with the low one through the chrono and go up from there to see how
it does.

-Mike

 

[SA John]

I now use 231 in .45 acp after using Unique for years. I find 231 to meter better and it is much cleaner. Following are loads that I chronoed out of a 5" S&W 1911. I do believe that Winchester's data is very conservative. Many older manuals list loads even higher than what I show here. All these loads were perfectly safe and showed no pressure signs or problems of any kind in my guns.

230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.1 231 = 781fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.3 231 = 827fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.6 231 = 870fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.8 231 = 907fps (personal max) good pin load with 225 FP

With a Hornady FMJ 230 I get the following:

5.6 231 = 831fps
6.0 231 = 872fps (my personal max with this combo)

I substitute a lead 225 flatpoint for the 230 RNL for pin shooting and get very similiar numbers. Cast lead bullets, in my experience, always shoot faster than a jacketed bullet of similar weight and with a similar charge. Infact, I always use less powder to reach the velocity I want. See that I use 6.0 of231 with a FMJ to get to the same speed as 5.6 231 with a cast bullet. This has proven true in every case and with every caliber I've ever loaded and chronoed. Flat point was loaded to 1.210".

I have shot 255 gr LSWCs and 250 gr cast cowboy bulllets (RNFP) with 5.6 gr of 231 and achieved 847-877fps depending on bullet brand. In theory these should knock pins over better than the 225 flat points at 907fps, but if there is a benefit I can't notice it. And I think the 225 is easier on your gun's frame. I stick to the 225's even though the heavy 250+ bullets are interesting. Hope this helps.

SA John

 

[Patriot]

I now use 231 in .45 acp after using Unique for years. I find 231 to meter better and it is much cleaner. Following are loads that I chronoed out of a 5" S&W 1911. I do believe that Winchester's data is very conservative. Many older manuals list loads even higher than what I show here. All these loads were perfectly safe and showed no pressure signs or problems of any kind in my guns.

230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.1 231 = 781fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.3 231 = 827fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.6 231 = 870fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.8 231 = 907fps (personal max) good pin load with 225 FP

With a Hornady FMJ 230 I get the following:

5.6 231 = 831fps
6.0 231 = 872fps (my personal max with this combo)

I substitute a lead 225 flatpoint for the 230 RNL for pin shooting and get very similiar numbers. Cast lead bullets, in my experience, always shoot faster than a jacketed bullet of similar weight and with a similar charge. Infact, I always use less powder to reach the velocity I want. See that I use 6.0 of231 with a FMJ to get to the same speed as 5.6 231 with a cast bullet. This has proven true in every case and with every caliber I've ever loaded and chronoed. Flat point was loaded to 1.210".

I have shot 255 gr LSWCs and 250 gr cast cowboy bulllets (RNFP) with 5.6 gr of 231 and achieved 847-877fps depending on bullet brand. In theory these should knock pins over better than the 225 flat points at 907fps, but if there is a benefit I can't notice it. And I think the 225 is easier on your gun's frame. I stick to the 225's even though the heavy 250+ bullets are interesting. Hope this helps.

SA John

What LOA do you load the 230 FMJ to?

 

[BillO]

Just loaded up a bunch of Ranier 185g plated hollow point target loads using 5.8 grains WIN 231. Haven't had a chance to check them on the chrono yet.

 

[jim42]

I have been loading 5grns of red dot for years. Chrono the load around 850. Jim

 

[Scrivener]

I have been loading 5grns of red dot for years. Chrono the load around 850. Jim

About what my load was when I used Red Dot, which I did for about 20 years. Very versatile propellant.

 

[Bugs100]

I loaded 200gr swc's over 5.2grs of Red Dot and it clocked 890fps. I liked it but I had a tough time cleaning my 1911's because I use Tetra. The combination of Tetra and a 100 rounds of Red Dot made a real mess.

 

[Gammon]

I now use 231 in .45 acp after using Unique for years. I find 231 to meter better and it is much cleaner. Following are loads that I chronoed out of a 5" S&W 1911. I do believe that Winchester's data is very conservative. Many older manuals list loads even higher than what I show here. All these loads were perfectly safe and showed no pressure signs or problems of any kind in my guns.

230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.1 231 = 781fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.3 231 = 827fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.6 231 = 870fps
230gr LRN LOA 1.260" 5.8 231 = 907fps (personal max) good pin load with 225 FP

With a Hornady FMJ 230 I get the following:

5.6 231 = 831fps
6.0 231 = 872fps (my personal max with this combo)

I substitute a lead 225 flatpoint for the 230 RNL for pin shooting and get very similiar numbers. Cast lead bullets, in my experience, always shoot faster than a jacketed bullet of similar weight and with a similar charge. Infact, I always use less powder to reach the velocity I want. See that I use 6.0 of231 with a FMJ to get to the same speed as 5.6 231 with a cast bullet. This has proven true in every case and with every caliber I've ever loaded and chronoed. Flat point was loaded to 1.210".

I have shot 255 gr LSWCs and 250 gr cast cowboy bulllets (RNFP) with 5.6 gr of 231 and achieved 847-877fps depending on bullet brand. In theory these should knock pins over better than the 225 flat points at 907fps, but if there is a benefit I can't notice it. And I think the 225 is easier on your gun's frame. I stick to the 225's even though the heavy 250+ bullets are interesting. Hope this helps.

SA John

5.6 of 231 is a little too much for a 250 gr bullet (IMHO). Try 5.0 or 4.8 and your results might improve as you will have less recoil to deal with.

 

[SA John]

The Boston Patriot: I load the FMJ to the same 1.260" as the RNL. I simply use the cartridge length that most factory ball rounds measure. Most are around 1.255 to 1.270.

Gammon: 5.6gr of 231 is stout with a 250 lead bullet as far as recoil is concerned. The only reason I messed around with such a heavy load was to shoot pins. I wanted something that equaled the .45 Colt revolver cartridge. In the end (as noted) I stayed with conventional bullet weights of 225-230 grains. I really couldn't see any difference on the pins between a 225 at 900 feet and a 250 at 850fps. If I were to pursue loads of 250 grains in the .45 acp in the future, I would use a slower powder like HS-6 or maybe even Blue Dot. W-231 is a bit fast for max results and speed with the real heavy stuff. I included the results of my findings with 231 and 250+ bullets just incase someone was interested. It's not the best powder for that job.

SA John

 

[drgrant]

Update... tested some loads.

Guys, thanks for the feedback/data.

I worked up some loads and settled on 5.7 gr of 231. I am seeing a lot of what SA John is seeing with the Hornady 230 FMJ... it seems to like a lot of punt to get it moving. 5.7 grs gets me about 830+ fps or so. I tried 5.6 and that yielded me low 800s. Gun used is a 5" 1911 with 3 port compensator.

The most interesting load of the day though were some Lead 230 RNLs I had already loaded up with 6.2 grs of Unique. I fired a few of those off and looked at the chrono and went "Holy Shit!" They were doing about 930-960 fps. They all functioned with no overpressure signs, but you could tell there was more punt going on there. I think next time I am going to use 231 for those bullets and start out lower than my FMJ load... the lead bullets seem to go quite a bit faster with less charge. The only weird thing about the RNLs I have is if you load them at 1.260 the gun will jam. I had to bring them down to 1.235 before the gun would work right with them. If you load them at 1.260 they don't drop all the way into a case gauge....

-Mike

 

[Lugnut]

Mike- that's strange with the case gauge issue. All my .45 ball ammo is done at 1.260"- albeit plated. I don't know why a lead bullet would prevent the cartridge from going into the gauge. Matter of fact I think Wilson and Chip McCormick have some recommendations of COL somewhere in the 1.260 length. This is not to imply that anything is wrong with 1.235 in your guns.

 

[drgrant]

Mike- that's strange with the case gauge issue. All my .45 ball ammo is done at 1.260"- albeit plated. I don't know why a lead bullet would prevent the cartridge from going into the gauge. Matter of fact I think Wilson and Chip McCormick have some recommendations of COL somewhere in the 1.260 length. This is not to imply that anything is wrong with 1.235 in your guns.

I think it's because the RNL design of the bullets my friend and I made up, the bullet itself doesn't have the usual FMJ profile- eg, the "curved part" of the bullet is shorter than normal, so if you load it up long, it catches early, if that makes any sense. (When I had them long, they had a tendency to not fully go into battery, although this behavior wasn't consistent. I'll have to try to get the mold number/manuf.... I think it was a Lee mold we were using.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Another update.... I tried out some loads at 5.8 grains of 231 on Saturday, and they weren't noticeably better than 5.7... it actually seemed to chrono worse, on average, which I thought was strange. 5.7 seems to be the
sweet spot, so I'm just going to stick with that, at least for these kind of bullets.

-Mike

 

[leewongfei]

Wow, i dont think i have ever seen Mike this green before! Usually, he is the one answering the questions, not asking them! Either way, i was searching some old threads for load data using W231 for 45ACP and came across this thread.

Mike, are you still using 5.7 grains of W231?

 

[Fixxah]

Another update.... I tried out some loads at 5.8 grains of 231 on Saturday, and they weren't noticeably better than 5.7... it actually seemed to chrono worse, on average, which I thought was strange. 5.7 seems to be the
sweet spot, so I'm just going to stick with that, at least for these kind of bullets.

-Mike

Any overpressure signs?

-Proud to be dad every day, a licensed plumber most days, and wish I was a shoemaker on others.

 

[drgrant]

Wow, i dont think i have ever seen Mike this green before! Usually, he is the one answering the questions, not asking them! Either way, i was searching some old threads for load data using W231 for 45ACP and came across this thread.

Mike, are you still using 5.7 grains of W231?

I pretty much switched to Unique at this point... (6.2 gr, 1.255 OAL with 230 FMJ/Plated) W231 actually got hard to come by and Unique much less so... and maybe it's my imagination, but Unique seems less snappy than W231 is, maybe it burns a little slower.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Any overpressure signs?

Back when I ran it, I didn't notice any flattened primers or anything like that to speak of. I probably loaded up at least 500 or so rounds that way and used them all, mostly in 1911s but also in HKs and other .45s I had at the time.

-Mike

 

[Royal]

Running 6.0 of Unique under a 230 gr plated RN @ 1.260. I also found W231 snappier not to mention incredibly difficult to find. Saving my last few lbs for 124 gr 9mm.

 

[turbo89]

I've loaded 5.8 gns of W231 without over pressure signs...they felt "hot" out of my 1911 (full size SW1911), but cycled fine and burnt clean.

I've settled in on 5.3gns of W231 behind a berry's plated 230gn RN.

 

[Royal]

I've loaded 5.8 gns of W231 without over pressure signs...they felt "hot" out of my 1911 (full size SW1911), but cycled fine and burnt clean.

I've settled in on 5.3gns of W231 behind a berry's plated 230gn RN.

Have you chrono'd the 5.3 over the Berry's 230gn? Curious as to what you are getting from the 1911 with that load. I may try it myself.

 

[turbo89]

Have you chrono'd the 5.3 over the Berry's 230gn? Curious as to what you are getting from the 1911 with that load. I may try it myself.

I have not... but if you do, please post results. I would expect it to fall right around the 800 ft/s mark.

 

[leewongfei]

Thanks Mike, i appreciate it! I still have a few pounds of unique, so ill give your load a try. I really appreciate it.
Sorry for resurrecting such an old thread.

 

[Gammon]

Just to confuse things a little more; WW 231 is manufactured for consistency by volume, not weight. A fixed powder bushing will deliver an amount of powder that will give you the same velocity from one lot of 231 to another, but this powder charge might not weigh the same, lot to lot. This means that comparing loads by charge weight is accurate only when the charges come from the same lot of powder.

PS I started loading .45 with 231 over 30 years ago and have experimented with many other powders. 231 is still my favorite powder for all of my non magnum pistol loads.

 

[turbo89]

Just to confuse things a little more; WW 231 is manufactured for consistency by volume, not weight. A fixed powder bushing will deliver an amount of powder that will give you the same velocity from one lot of 231 to another, but this powder charge might not weigh the same, lot to lot. This means that comparing loads by charge weight is accurate only when the charges come from the same lot of powder.

PS I started loading .45 with 231 over 30 years ago and have experimented with many other powders. 231 is still my favorite powder for all of my non magnum pistol loads.

You built us up and let us down.... how are you loading with W231? Are you volume spooning, or going by charge weight?