Why I'm Done With Remington UMC...

MassMark

MassMark

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So, a day at the range - finally! You could not ask for a better winters day for shooting...Great temps, sunshine, the crunch of snow under my boots, met some great people - totally awesome.

I broke out my NES M4 and immediately put it to work. This gun is a laser beam - superbly accurate for a 14.5" barrel. The only snag I ran into came at the hands of Remington UMC .223....It's apparent to me that this ammunition has some consistency issues and this is the "tale of two ammunition cities" if you will...I brought a total of 300-round today. I mark all my mags on the floorplates with white crayon as I load them and they were as follows:

- "X" for XM193

- "P" for Privi Partisan

- "Q" for Q3131

- "S" for Speer Lawman

- "R" for Remington UMC

Two mags were loaded with UMC that I had purchased in November and two mags were loaded with UMC that I purchased last week - both in sealed 200-round cases. I had the newer UMC loaded into uber-reliable Colt mags with green followers and the older rounds in LaBelle - also green follower equipped. I started life today by shooting first with Privi, them XM, then older UMC, then more XM, then newer UMC. All brass was thrown about 6-feet at 4pm, until I got to the newer UMC. Bang, then click - recharge, then bang, then click. This went on for 10-rounds and in all cases, the pin fell onto an empty chamber. Thinking I could have a follower issue, I offloaded the remaining rounds into another uber-reliable Colt 20rd mag I keep in my case. Same result, though I did get 2 rounds to fire consecutively. I then performed a tear down of my rifle to see if anything was amiss. The rifle looked perfect, (just dirty). I popped in a 30rd mag of Privi and dumped it with glee...I then inserted a mag of the older UMC and repeated mag-dump-mania. Puzzled, I reached for the last mag of newer UMC and had the exact same problem occur - bang, click, recharge, bang, bang, click, recharge. It was then I noticed a pile of spent brass nestled on the chair seat sitting on the other side of the bench at about 3pm and 4-feet away from all the other brass from the day...[thinking] I finished off without stoppage with Q3131, more Privi and the Speer. I fired off the rest Novembers stash of UMC without incident, but will never shoot another round of this shit through my rifle - ever. I may buy a single shot .223 some day and it will see use in that, but will never be loaded into another mag again....Crapola...[rolleyes]
 
Nice writeup, Mark...

IMHO I would bitch to remington about it. Maybe if you get lucky they will send you some more ammo in the mail.

-Mike
 
Ninsho said:
Wow and thats with the dangerous M4 bolt carrier... I guess it is possible to stop that thing.
Click to expand...

How about it? This thing has gobbled up everything....When you see your brass sitting at your feet - you pretty much know you're pooched...[grin] I guess the weirdest part is that another older batch was perfect - the brass was mixed up with the X, S, Q and P....
 
Thanks for the write up also - I always appreciate seeing what works well for others.
 
MassMark said:
How about it? This thing has gobbled up everything....When you see your brass sitting at your feet - you pretty much know you're pooched...[grin] I guess the weirdest part is that another older batch was perfect - the brass was mixed up with the X, S, Q and P....
Click to expand...

Wow. Talk about bad batch. I've only shot UMC in .223 once - I didn't have a problem with it but I've read so bloody many bad reports I haven't bought any more. Thanks for the writeup.
 
MassMark said:
You know, I didn't inspect them at all...Is there something I should look for on unfired rounds? If not, I'll crack open another box for the next trip and pop off a few...
Click to expand...

Before shooting them, compare the depth of the primer below the bottom of the cartridge on the UMC cases versus a different manufacturer. Also, you should have looked at the primer indent on the misfired cases. One possible cause would be if the primers were high -- not inserted deep enough into the case. Then the firing pin hits the primer and primer gets pushed deeper in the primer pocket at that time. The result is a shallower primer indentation.

It could just be bad primers. I'm just curious.
 
M1911 said:
Before shooting them, compare the depth of the primer below the bottom of the cartridge on the UMC cases versus a different manufacturer. Also, you should have looked at the primer indent on the misfired cases. One possible cause would be if the primers were high -- not inserted deep enough into the case. Then the firing pin hits the primer and primer gets pushed deeper in the primer pocket at that time. The result is a shallower primer indentation.

It could just be bad primers. I'm just curious.
Click to expand...

I'll see if I can recover a few samples from Neptune Cat - will need several, as I had "good" UMC and "bad" UMC...If not, I'll take another box out and give them a whirl. Will be interesting to see and also if Remington will do anything about it. I wish I had some of the old UMC left to compare notes - that stuff, (all 200 rounds), ran flawlessly...
 
M1911 said:
Check the boxes for lot numbers before you call UMC.
Click to expand...

Yeah - thanks for that. I'm assuming that all the boxes in the case are from the same lot - will have to check that as well. They must be, as this issue occurred in every one of three boxes. I think out of the 60-rounds, I got 3 to go off consecutively...
 
Last edited:
The Tote Board...

Dick Manley said:
How close to springfield are you, or are you ever in the area. I could lend you my inerta driven bullet puller

-DM-
Click to expand...

LOL... It's all yours - proceed with caution... [wink]

kristo said:
Didn't you have a problem with Centurion as well? Was it the same rifle?
Click to expand...

Yup...Centurion was weak as well...I think my rifle likes good ammunition. Here's what I've run so far:

- Federal XM193: 420 rounds - zero malfunctions

- Winchester Q3131: 240 rounds - zero malfunctions

- Privi 5.56 55gr: 400 rounds - zero malfunctions

- Privi 5.56 62gr: 90 rounds - zero malfunctions

- Speer Lawman: 100 rounds - zero malfunctions

- Qmmo .223: 100 rounds, (plus a few from Ninsho) - zero malfunctions

- Remington UMC, (circa November): 200 rounds - zero malfunctions

- Remington UMC, (circa January) 30 rounds - 27 malfunctions

- Centurion Military Contract, (Mexico): 60 rounds - 10 malfunctions
 
That qmmo stuff does tend to give me malfunctions (bolt not locking back) on most mags. I just got in some magpul followers and brand new springs for my mags to try and cure that, though.

Can't beat the price on that stuff.
 
I brought my AR to the range today with some UMC again. The mags that I had problems with I replaced the followers with Magpul followers and put in new stainless springs. I shot around 100+ rounds through 3 different mags and did not have the same problems I had last time. They all fed fine and were just extra dirty and smelly was all.
 
X,P,Q and S are 5.56N loads and R is .223. What's the Centurion marking? If you don't have the NATO stamp (circled plus) it's probably not 5.56.

The problem is that your rifle has a heavier bolt and possibly heavier hammer with tougher spring. I'll assume that you are using off-the-shelf buffer and buffer spring, but obviously those can also cause the problem you report. Finally, unless you regularly (i.e. after a few hundred rounds) oil the bolt (using the two holes in the bolt carrier), you may also observe the same failure.
You can typically figure out where the problem lies, by slowly pulling the charging handle and looking for areas of resistance.
Maybe you don't care, but unless you fix your problem you will be limited to 5.56N. I, on the other hand make sure that every AR I build with direct impingement is as reliable as a the gas piston AK. The ultimate test is firing steel cased commercial ammo. If it cycles on that you are good. A lot of new factory ARs will not cycle Wolf for example.

dhuze, the commercial cases are made of thinner brass, than military grade. If you reload them you are likely to split them.

I find the qmmo reloads to be very clean, reliable and above all very consistent round to round.
 
kristo said:
X,P,Q and S are 5.56N loads and R is .223. What's the Centurion marking? If you don't have the NATO stamp (circled plus) it's probably not 5.56.

The problem is that your rifle has a heavier bolt and possibly heavier hammer with tougher spring. I'll assume that you are using off-the-shelf buffer and buffer spring, but obviously those can also cause the problem you report. Finally, unless you regularly (i.e. after a few hundred rounds) oil the bolt (using the two holes in the bolt carrier), you may also observe the same failure.
You can typically figure out where the problem lies, by slowly pulling the charging handle and looking for areas of resistance.
Maybe you don't care, but unless you fix your problem you will be limited to 5.56N. I, on the other hand make sure that every AR I build with direct impingement is as reliable as a the gas piston AK. The ultimate test is firing steel cased commercial ammo. If it cycles on that you are good. A lot of new factory ARs will not cycle Wolf for example.

dhuze, the commercial cases are made of thinner brass, than military grade. If you reload them you are likely to split them.

I find the qmmo reloads to be very clean, reliable and above all very consistent round to round.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the post...I do indeed run a heavy bolt, (M-16) and am not running off the shelf buffer. Mine is an M4 H-Buffer and spring from Defensive Edge....The Centurion "Military Contract" is .223 and made in Mexico and the same Remington UMC from 2 different lots either ran, or didn't run. Lot 1 from November ran flawlessly, (before and after running the newer lot purchased 1/09). I'm not the first to post about UMC inconsistencies and I likely won't be the last....I don't run my gun bathed in oil, but I do run it wet, with primary m-t-m surfaces lubed with Militec grease and the bolt with CLP. Which reminds me that I must add 120 rounds of PMC .223 to the mix, (forgot about those) and they ran 100%....
 
A lot of people blame their semi-auto gun problems on ammunition. Sometimes that is the case, but more often than not, using high powered ammunition just covers up problems in your gun.

For example, many people knock Wolf and say it shoots unreliably in their gun, but in reality, if your gun doesn't shoot wolf, you have an unreliable gun.

The reason for this is that problems in the gas system of the AR will lower the pressure to the point where lower powered .223 like Wolf or Remington UMC won't cycle well. However, if you check that your gas block alignment, port size, gas tube flange, and bolt carrier and gas rings are all aligned properly and within spec, it should operate flawlessly with Wolf or Remington UMC.

If your AR only works with higher powered XM193, I would be concerned and try to figure out the problem. An AR is not something you want to be poorly adjusted such that it can't shoot whatever is on hand. Plus, if the extra 10,000 or 15,000 PSI of XM193 makes the difference in operation, this is proof that your gun is on the fritz/fringe.

Sorry, this isn't the answer you wanted. Everybody wants to blame their ammo, but its something to check out.
 
maee said:
A lot of people blame their semi-auto gun problems on ammunition. Sometimes that is the case, but more often than not, using high powered ammunition just covers up problems in your gun.

For example, many people knock Wolf and say it shoots unreliably in their gun, but in reality, if your gun doesn't shoot wolf, you have an unreliable gun.

The reason for this is that problems in the gas system of the AR will lower the pressure to the point where lower powered .223 like Wolf or Remington UMC won't cycle well. However, if you check that your gas block alignment, port size, gas tube flange, and bolt carrier and gas rings are all aligned properly and within spec, it should operate flawlessly with Wolf or Remington UMC.

If your AR only works with higher powered XM193, I would be concerned and try to figure out the problem. An AR is not something you want to be poorly adjusted such that it can't shoot whatever is on hand. Plus, if the extra 10,000 or 15,000 PSI of XM193 makes the difference in operation, this is proof that your gun is on the fritz/fringe.

Sorry, this isn't the answer you wanted. Everybody wants to blame their ammo, but its something to check out.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply. If you look at my ammo list, you'll see I've pretty much run the gambit of ammunition. I won't shoot Wolf ever - for personal/political reasons, coupled with poor past performance. The prevailing question still remains: How can the same ammunition from two different lots perform so inconsistently? Remember: Lot 1 (November purchase) ran flawlessly. Lot 2 (January purchase) did not. I ran these rounds before and after one another...I think I can safely conclude that it's not the gun....
 
I won't shoot Wolf ever - for personal/political reasons
Click to expand...
Who says the Cold War is over? [laugh2]

The NATO and SAAMI specs are ranges. It seems you are fine in the higher bands. It really comes down to how do you intend to use your rifle. You seem to have a mil-spec AR, so use a mil-spec ammo. If you want to up the tolerances use the troubleshooting steps I posted (or find me at the next NES shoot).

I don't think you understood the point I made about lubrication. The bolt is a like a car piston with piston rings for compression. If you run your car without oil it will overheat and seize... OR you will melt the rings and loose compression. Same thing will happen with the bolt. If you put extra oil in there, you want be floating in it; it will be expelled at the next shot. But if you are running dry you will need a lot of force to pull the bolt out of the barrel recess and then a lot of force to slam it locked.
header_photo.jpg

I lot of people miss that little detail. So, every few hundred shots, put a drop of oil in each of the two vertically stacked holes of the curved/recessed section of the bolt carrier. You don't have to disassemble the rifle in any way to do that. Then of course a lot of people clean their bolt after every use, which negates the need for that process...
 
Excellent advice - thanks Kristo...[cheers] And yes, I'm no fan of Russia....[wink]

Just ran another 340 through it today - all Q3131 and XM193 - with two boxes of Winchester 55gr Super-X soft points just for kicks. Function 100% and man, is this puppy accurate! It is dialed in...[wink]
 
MassMark said:
Thanks for your reply. If you look at my ammo list, you'll see I've pretty much run the gambit of ammunition. I won't shoot Wolf ever - for personal/political reasons, coupled with poor past performance. The prevailing question still remains: How can the same ammunition from two different lots perform so inconsistently? Remember: Lot 1 (November purchase) ran flawlessly. Lot 2 (January purchase) did not. I ran these rounds before and after one another...I think I can safely conclude that it's not the gun....
Click to expand...

Massmark, its no different than reloads. Different powder? Different primers? Different bullets...or if same, different Mfg. process? Different cases?

Moons ago, when I was very actively involved in PPC, did all my own loading and was an absolute fanatic about quality control.

Started with, lets say, a case lot of 1,000 new rounds. They were used in matches. Now we get to the re-use of the cases.

Tumble cleaned until they were spotless....at the time used "Uncle Ben's rice as a medium. Purchased powder in bulk so I could have all the "same" lot. Purchased primers in bulk, same lot number, same reason. Used "Zero" HBWC and would not use (in a match) anything not from the same lot number.

All rounds were done "one by one" and wiped down by hand. Yes, it took many hours, but when I went into a match I knew exactly what I had, where it shot at a given distance, etc.

Anal? Perhaps. At the time I did manage to get the NRA rank of "Lifetime Master" in Combat Pistol.

If you are using all "new" ammo, you can probably accomplish the same quality control if you insure that your bulk purchases are of the same lot number. At least that way, there should be minimal discrepancy.
Good Shooting!
 

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