Which gun is worth it questions? Example...

Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
3,721
Likes
1,458
Location
Louisiana



This question gets asked a lot, so I'm posting a direct comparison of three different guns. Which one is 'worth' it? The Noveske at $2700, the Saint at $1000, or the PSA at $550? All three are basically the same setup with various quality differences. Yes, you can probably get them cheaper somewhere else (I did), but the same shop has two of them listed for a direct comparison for the sake of me putting a bunch of one's and zero's on the internet.

I can give some insight on two of them, the Saint and the PSA (I built a PSA rifle with a generic LPK). The Saint has a pretty smooth trigger compared to the PSA. The PSA is more like my Colt M4 at work, kinda clunky, a little 'loose' (it rattles a little if you shake it). But is the Noveske worth over almost $2k more? I simply don't see how I'd see any difference between the PSA and the much more expensive gun. The trigger probably breaks cleaner, but realistically, I don't shoot competition with it. I don't have a whole lot of rounds through either of my guns yet, so long term reliability isn't something I can speak to. But I can buy a whole lot of repair work for $2k, hell, I could buy two more complete guns for when one breaks. My work M4 has thousands of rounds through it, the one time it failed, it needed oil, that's on me. So being 'clunky' isn't necessarily a reliability indicator.

So, instead of 'how much should I spend' question, how many think there is a legitimate performance difference between these guns that are not long range guns, these are 100 yard guns more or less at best in the hands of most shooters. Is that performance worth the price difference?
 

SJan

NES Member
Rating - 100%
29   0   0
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
3,706
Likes
955
Location
Attleboro, MA
What makes you think they are "100 yard guns more or less"

Is it the barrel length?
Sure, velocity is lost compared to a longer barrel, but a quality 10.5" barrel will be just as accurate out to 4-600 with a good optic. I think that is a place where you will see a difference in the 3 models.
 

C. Stockwell

NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
2,478
Likes
2,350
Location
RI
(1) Exceptional, expensive guns aren't designed for or best utilized by the average shooter. Putting a $2000, $3000 rifle in the hands of a guy who shoots maybe once a month at a piece of paper at 100 yards and doesn't compete or take classes is like giving a middle-aged lawyer or dentist with no track or other racing experience a Porsche... oh... wait...

The average shooter is fine with an average rifle. When you get into above average situations, you need above average equipment. The market has many options and we should be thankful for that. Everyone can buy or build to their heart's content.

(2) Why buy when you can build? We're talking about ARs here, LEGOs for adults. This isn't the FAL market where there's only one new-production manufacturer in the US, or the pistol or shotgun market where building is sort of beyond the ability of the average person with a workbench and a vise. Someone can build a 1911 (but is better served by sending a box of parts to say Greg Derr), but try cobbling together a match Tanfoglio or CZ. Point is, build an AR, don't buy one, unless the one you want to buy meets all your requirements and you simply can't build the same thing for less than or equal to the buying price.
 

JRT

NES Member
Rating - 100%
7   0   0
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
1,665
Likes
1,300
Location
Philadelphia, PA
I bought the Ghetto Blaster which is basically that Noveske rifle as an SBR with an 8 inch barrel. Was it worth $2,500 dollars? It was to me. I like nice shit, other people like cheap stuff. The differences are probably minimal and they would all probably do the job you want them to do, it all comes down to what YOU want.
 

greencobra

NES Member
Rating - 100%
24   0   0
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
15,941
Likes
7,489
I like nice shit.....
i hear ya, me to! but man, prices on boutique guns are crazy. i always longed for a larue gun but holy cow, for the amount of use i'd give it i couldn't justify the additional cost. but if i gave it a workout every week, and trained and maybe competed i would have gotten it. for now i'm happy with sprinkling dillo dust on stuff and dreaming.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JRT

FiremanBob

NES Member
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
3,409
Likes
6,184
My first question is always, "How do you want to use it?" A recreational-quality rifle for occasional use is fine for $500. But if you want something durable, even Boogaloo durable, you want the better metallurgy (harder) and more rugged construction of the more expensive rifle. Things like 4150 rather than 4140 steel, better hardening and finish on the BCG, even better steel in the various springs.
 

Supermoto

NES Member
Rating - 100%
16   0   0
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
8,631
Likes
2,711
Location
in 1st Place
Is that performance worth the price difference?
PSA skill level shooters like PSA performance as they can't tell the difference
PSA skill level shooters like Noveske level of performance because they think others will think they have Noveske skills
Noveske skill level shooters want a rifle equal to their skill and think the performance is worth the price

and really its only a 2K difference
 

fencer

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
11,367
Likes
7,732
Location
Southeastern Mass
You can build a much nicer rifle, with the components you want, for less money than the most expensive on the list.
My custom built AR with a Ranier ultra match barrel, Giesel trigger and to many quality parts to get into, cost me way less than a high end complete rifle. The first day my wife ever shot a rifle, she was dinging steel at 300 yards on her first magazine.
I think the old saying that no one is ever disappointed with quality holds true.
 
Rating - 100%
66   0   0
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
27,505
Likes
4,588
What you have to do is decide on worth that fits tour wallet and what you think of the product,
Lets say all these ARs are made from the same alloys ( i see some different alloys listed but dont know good better best for application) all are to mil spec them the only real value is quality of material and craftsmanship.
After that its how much does it cost the manufacture to make it
My friend works at a machine shop the company had 2 separate entities
One buys like 1mil in material the other only a few 100k so material price points are different. They make all sorts of valves and brass stuff.
One shop had highly experienced people the other has a large number of “students” and trainees.
thier parts go out the door for less money at the more experienced shop because they have better material cost and quicker turn over, go figure
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
59   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
68,348
Likes
26,203
You can build a much nicer rifle, with the components you want, for less money than the most expensive on the list.
Yes, but it won't be "done" and you'll have fun dealing with stuff if it f***s up during the process. Or you can split the difference by just buying a full upper, etc. (Lots of coin can be saved this way, and this is probablywhat I'd do) The guys buying noveske whole sticks likely do not want to f*** around with any of that crap. They just want it to work, and I don't blame them. It depends on the individuals value prop and how much free time they have. For example I know how to install my own gun sights on handguns but I don't- because I'd rather just let someone else do it. It's too cheap to pay someone else to do it and not have to be bothered with it.

-Mike
 

C. Stockwell

NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
2,478
Likes
2,350
Location
RI
Yes, but it won't be "done" and you'll have fun dealing with stuff if it f***s up during the process. Or you can split the difference by just buying a full upper, etc. (Lots of coin can be saved this way, and this is probablywhat I'd do) The guys buying noveske whole sticks likely do not want to f*** around with any of that crap. They just want it to work, and I don't blame them. It depends on the individuals value prop and how much free time they have. For example I know how to install my own gun sights on handguns but I don't- because I'd rather just let someone else do it. It's too cheap to pay someone else to do it and not have to be bothered with it.

-Mike
The buyer's time is a serious consideration. If someone's working six, seven days a week for double digits per day, buying is a lot easier than building. However, its not that hard to wait for a sale and buy a bunch of parts at discount, then take or send a box of parts to a gunsmith.

Time is a factor beyond OP's point though. If you need a rifle now and have the cash to buy a new, whole rifle, then that's a different story from a guy who's not concerned about time or competitions and simply wants a rifle.
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
59   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
68,348
Likes
26,203
The buyer's time is a serious consideration. If someone's working six, seven days a week for double digits per day, buying is a lot easier than building. However, its not that hard to wait for a sale and buy a bunch of parts at discount, then take or send a box of parts to a gunsmith.

Time is a factor beyond OP's point though. If you need a rifle now and have the cash to buy a new, whole rifle, then that's a different story from a guy who's not concerned about time or competitions and simply wants a rifle.
The reality is for someone like me if i went the half-skinflint route a decent rifle would take me months to build, most of the stuff would sit in a pile/box for 3-6 months before it actually got built. I can live with that... but it's not hard to see how others wouldnt want to deal with it.
 

Broccoli Iglesias

NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
20,626
Likes
9,938
Location
Suckachusetts
Yes, but it won't be "done" and you'll have fun dealing with stuff if it f***s up during the process. Or you can split the difference by just buying a full upper, etc. (Lots of coin can be saved this way, and this is probablywhat I'd do) The guys buying noveske whole sticks likely do not want to f*** around with any of that crap. They just want it to work, and I don't blame them. It depends on the individuals value prop and how much free time they have. For example I know how to install my own gun sights on handguns but I don't- because I'd rather just let someone else do it. It's too cheap to pay someone else to do it and not have to be bothered with it.

-Mike
Its literally screwing parts together. Lol.
I built a lower on my work desk, using a measuring tape as a hammer (the rubber part) while on a conference call.

ARs are not "built" they are just assembled.

I get it people not wanting to mess around, but then those people might also not need such a high end weapon. If you cant deal with putting a trigger, will you deal with all the time and effort it takes do load development and get the most out of the gun?

I understand your example of gun sights. Gun sights on some guns can be annoying to get then to line up, I too would pay someone for that.
 

C. Stockwell

NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
2,478
Likes
2,350
Location
RI
The reality is for someone like me if i went the half-skinflint route a decent rifle would take me months to build, most of the stuff would sit in a pile/box for 3-6 months before it actually got built. I can live with that... but it's not hard to see how others wouldnt want to deal with it.
If someone shoots CMP or 3-gun or 2-gun or some other sport where you need a quality AR, you have a down time between late November, early December and late April. If you round that to no matches between 11/30 and 5/1, that's five months of down time.

Three or four months to build a rifle and then say a month to take the gun out and try it before the first match really is not a long period of time. Other guns take a lot longer to go from nothing to completed, like Sharps clones or FALs, etc.

Besides, the guy who's at the $500 PSA level is probably not constantly shooting. What difference is it to him if he has to wait three months, six months, a year to go from blank lower to completed rifle, assuming time is not of the essence?

Its literally screwing parts together. Lol.
I built a lower on my work desk, using a measuring tape as a hammer (the rubber part) while on a conference call.

ARs are not "built" they are just assembled.

I get it people not wanting to mess around, but then those people might also not need such a high end weapon. If you cant deal with putting a trigger, will you deal with all the time and effort it takes do load development and get the most out of the gun?

I understand your example of gun sights. Gun sights on some guns can be annoying to get then to line up, I too would pay someone for that.
This.
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
59   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
68,348
Likes
26,203
Its literally screwing parts together. Lol.
I built a lower on my work desk, using a measuring tape as a hammer (the rubber part) while on a conference call.

ARs are not "built" they are just assembled.

I get it people not wanting to mess around, but then those people might also not need such a high end weapon. If you cant deal with putting a trigger, will you deal with all the time and effort it takes do load development and get the most out of the gun?

I understand your example of gun sights. Gun sights on some guns can be annoying to get then to line up, I too would pay someone for that.
Yes it is, but if it mysteriously f***s up the first time you shoot it ceases being merely assembled. Then it can be a saarlac pit. It's no different than when i get calls from people who build a pc and get stuck halfway through it. Granted if someone knows what they're doing and doesn't buy junk, it probably will be fine. Load development? 90% of AR shooters don't load anything for their guns. Or, lets put it this way, anyone doing load development is probably not asking the question the OP is, because they already know the answers, at least as far as their own shooting activity...

To put it another way, alienware gets like 300-600 bucks profit on a gaming PC i can put together in a half an hour. Why? Because of the saarlac pit that can open up between the two points. [laugh] an AR, etc, isn't any different. It just looks easy to us because we're accustomed to dealing with it- and we're willing to eat any risks, or waste time required to resolve issues, ot spend time validating a build, etc. For experienced folks, this is minimal, for others, not so much.

I'm not even saying I would ever buy something complete at that level, but making the point that it's easy to see why others would. If it was me I'd split the difference, have someone else build the upper as a tested unit and do the rest myself.

-Mike
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
637
Likes
364
So I own medium high end ARs. Some I have built, some are uppers I have purchased. I like “nice” stuff too (think Geissele, Wilson combat barrels, BCM, Faxon etc).

I also own a few PSA products(AR/AK). Maybe I have just been lucky, but every one has functioned very well (occasional hiccup with a middy and wolf steel failing to lock the bolt back on last round). I enjoy owning a few guns I can beat the sh*t out of without shedding a tear. Might rattle can them if I get around too it at some point just for fun. I guess I have become more boba fett and less Gucci over time.

I don’t doubt that a LMT bolt will outlast a PSA. But does it really matter for a training/practice/range rifle. I am getting more to the point of just keeping a spare bolt in my range bag and rolling on with my shooting life.

If your going to own one rifle, go higher end. If you own multiple, task them for different purposes. You don’t need to spend $2000+ on each gun unless you have the $$$ and like Gucci stuff.
 

June4th

NES Member
Rating - 100%
39   0   0
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
4,145
Likes
2,927
Location
SE MA
I can provide one data point: The used Noveske I bought from a fellow NESer with unknown round count looks better in workmanship and shoots more accurately than the one I assembled with a complete factory BCM upper and Rock River NM 2-stage LPK and a group buy lower.

The BCM was a good and solid rifle, but the Noveske was just better. How much money to pay for how much better quality is always in the eyes of the beholder.
 

xjma99

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
6,289
Likes
4,797
Location
NH
Buy the upper you want, build the lower you want. If you can’t build a lower maybe take up basket weaving or pink hat knitting.

then instead of reconfiguring the rifle for different tasks, build another style for the other task!
 

Asaltweapon

NES Member
Rating - 100%
45   0   0
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
12,727
Likes
5,553
Location
Northern Mass
I buy whatever I can afford or want to spend. It might be an Anderson Lower that gets engraved or a LMT, Phase5 or a Windham or 2.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who put a gun together sitting at my desk but I did put a pad down on the solid cherry top. LOL
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
3,721
Likes
1,458
Location
Louisiana
What makes you think they are "100 yard guns more or less"

Is it the barrel length?
Sure, velocity is lost compared to a longer barrel, but a quality 10.5" barrel will be just as accurate out to 4-600 with a good optic. I think that is a place where you will see a difference in the 3 models.
Yes, I specifically went with pistol guns because I know there is a real advantage to what goes into a longer range rifle. I'll defer whether or not a 9 inchish gun is 'good' out to 600. I've never shot a pistol AR at that range. That really seems counter intuitive to me since most of the powder is still burning and you're losing a lot of pressure out the shorter barrel. I guess it could still be 'accurate', but you'd have to howitzer it in more than a 16 or 21 inch gun. I'm stuck in a city now, so shooting longer ranges is a PITA, even the National Guard range is only 100 yards. Someday, I'll be back in a place where I can start playing at longer ranges again.

edit: I may have screwed the pooch on the thread. I thought I stayed below the 10 inch guns, so yeah. I was more looking into 'is the $2700 gun THAT much 'better' than the $500 gun. Ah well, always the next 'make you think' thread.
 
Top Bottom