What's the point of a .38sp revolver?

[Jose]

If anyone wants a modern-day 38/44 load, get some Buffalo Bore .38 +P LSWCHP.

I have chronoed them at 1100 fps (12 feet from the muzzle) out of a 4" S&W K frame. They are phenomenal.

 

[Jose]

The 38 Special has this psychotic low status here in America these days, a viewpoint of younger shooters who think it is useless as a cartridge, more of a popgun than anything that could be interesting.

Funny how none of them want to take one to the chest.

 

[redtail]

Not to get too far off base from the subject of this thread, but here goes anyway:
Someone I trust very much with S&W lore tells me that the stainless L frame is also known as the M frame. Knowing full well the original Ladysmiths were on the original M frame, this apparently is the case.
L frame=blue
M frame=stainless
Now, back to the 38 Special!

 

[depicts]

Not to get too far off base from the subject of this thread, but here goes anyway:
Someone I trust very much with S&W lore tells me that the stainless L frame is also known as the M frame. Knowing full well the original Ladysmiths were on the original M frame, this apparently is the case.
L frame=blue
M frame=stainless
Now, back to the 38 Special!

redtail, yes, there are many codes S&W uses to keep track of stock, but they are not "Model Numbers" as we think of frame sizes. Instead, they generally refer to an N frame with other than blue finish as an M or W or watever.

When most people refer to the FRAME SIZES, they are talking C, J, K, L, N and now the X frame with the 500 and 460.

An M frame is telling you the finish of an already known frame size. (L size in this case. It is not another frame size.)

 

[Coyote33]

Every time I see this thread, I think of:

 

[Jose]

Every time I see this thread, I think of:

38 Special at its best

 

[redtail]

Jose, no I personally don't have catalog proof of them loading down the 38. They have actually done it to most handgun cartridges. I can tell you that when I was in my teens, back in the 70s, factory 38 Special loads could be had with the listed velocities exceeding 1200 fps, right on the box. 357 Magnum you could get at 1600 fps for lighter 110 grain HPs, today these HPs are I believe listed at about 1285. The 9mm is another example, it used to be common to find factory 9mm HP ammo that had 1200+ fps spec'd on the box, while today these HP cartridges are typically loaded to around 900 or so fps. It used to be, the 9mm was an in between caliber, with velocity that was higher than the 38 Special and lower than the 357 magnum. Today the typical 9mm factory ammo is in line with the 38 Special, both about 900-950 fps, labeled as LE ammo or +P or both, loaded with some sort of high tech HP of course. I am going by memory here, but I can tell you I bought a fair share of ammo back then and shot 2-3 boxes almost every week. I remember well, and I am certain of what I am typing. A guy I know took several boxes of current 38 Special offerings, several +P offerings, and spent a couple of days firing them all through various handguns while chronographing it all. The majority of current +P loads-the stuff everyone wonders if its safe for their guns-chrono'd at less than 1000 fps, in the 900-940 fps range. 1 or 2 examples of +P ammo exited the muzzles going just under 900 fps! He was able to just shake the empties out of the cylinder and didn't have to use the ejector. All this, all these folks getting nervous over such mild loads, which 35 years ago were more in line with typical target wadcutter loads for this cartridge. There are very few examples today of 38 Special factory ammo that will chronograph at over 1000 fps, even though they have the +P or +P+ designation. Cor-Bon is one maker that still offers the real stuff. Being a reloader, I forget offhand who the others are, I make my own. As he says in his study, does anyone seriously think that an ammo maker would sell ammo to the general public that isn't safe to fire in their guns? When you see his study results and consider the state of liability these days, you suddenly realize this "is +P safe in my gun?" is all a bunch of malarky and hype over nothing. Unless you have an RG or other such gun, the answer is of course your gun is perfectly safe with +P ammo in it. They'd be crazy to allow you to purchase the stuff if it wasn't. Probably this is all about liability and litigation, but I've also considered some of this down-loading might be about kevlar vests and our LEOs. Of course then you quickly realize that the vest angle is really just another version of potential litigation. I don't positively know why they have done this, but I assure you they have lowered the velocities of most handgun ammo in general.

 

[Jose]

redtail, with all due respect, you need to look at modern ammo specs one more time.

Modern .357 Magnum does make 1200 fps, with a 158 grain bullet, not a 110 grain bullet. I carry Speer 125 gra Gold Dot .357s in my Model 65 and 1400 fps is no lie, I've chronoed them myself.

Every decent defensive 9 mm Luger loading out there easily breaks 1100 fps with 124 grain bullets. 124 +Ps are over 1200 fps. They only go subsonic with 147 grain bullets.

Remington's .38 +P 158 LSWC is right at 890, again, verified with a chrono and a real gun (my Model 64).

Buffalo Bore's version of the FBI load breaks 1150 fps, again chrono verified with a real gun not a vented test barrel.

I am an avid reloader like you, but factory ammo is FAR from being the wimp that you seem to make it out to be.

 

[sig shooter]

Jose, no I personally don't have catalog proof of them loading down the 38. They have actually done it to most handgun cartridges. I can tell you that when I was in my teens, back in the 70s, factory 38 Special loads could be had with the listed velocities exceeding 1200 fps, right on the box. 357 Magnum you could get at 1600 fps for lighter 110 grain HPs, today these HPs are I believe listed at about 1285. The 9mm is another example, it used to be common to find factory 9mm HP ammo that had 1200+ fps spec'd on the box, while today these HP cartridges are typically loaded to around 900 or so fps. It used to be, the 9mm was an in between caliber, with velocity that was higher than the 38 Special and lower than the 357 magnum. Today the typical 9mm factory ammo is in line with the 38 Special, both about 900-950 fps, labeled as LE ammo or +P or both, loaded with some sort of high tech HP of course. I am going by memory here, but I can tell you I bought a fair share of ammo back then and shot 2-3 boxes almost every week. I remember well, and I am certain of what I am typing. A guy I know took several boxes of current 38 Special offerings, several +P offerings, and spent a couple of days firing them all through various handguns while chronographing it all. The majority of current +P loads-the stuff everyone wonders if its safe for their guns-chrono'd at less than 1000 fps, in the 900-940 fps range. 1 or 2 examples of +P ammo exited the muzzles going just under 900 fps! He was able to just shake the empties out of the cylinder and didn't have to use the ejector. All this, all these folks getting nervous over such mild loads, which 35 years ago were more in line with typical target wadcutter loads for this cartridge. There are very few examples today of 38 Special factory ammo that will chronograph at over 1000 fps, even though they have the +P or +P+ designation. Cor-Bon is one maker that still offers the real stuff. Being a reloader, I forget offhand who the others are, I make my own. As he says in his study, does anyone seriously think that an ammo maker would sell ammo to the general public that isn't safe to fire in their guns? When you see his study results and consider the state of liability these days, you suddenly realize this "is +P safe in my gun?" is all a bunch of malarky and hype over nothing. Unless you have an RG or other such gun, the answer is of course your gun is perfectly safe with +P ammo in it. They'd be crazy to allow you to purchase the stuff if it wasn't. Probably this is all about liability and litigation, but I've also considered some of this down-loading might be about kevlar vests and our LEOs. Of course then you quickly realize that the vest angle is really just another version of potential litigation. I don't positively know why they have done this, but I assure you they have lowered the velocities of most handgun ammo in general.

Proper grammar and paragraphs please. That God damn wall of text is hard on the eyes.

 

[Revolver]

What's all this complaining about recoil, you just need the right gun, an SP 101!

 

[jairadio]

My round-butt Mod 19 snubbie is VERY controllable with .357 rounds.

As is my Model 66 2 1/2, but one thing I do know is, I will never shoot the .357 out of my j frame.