What's the point of a .38sp revolver?

[jaypap]

What's the point of a .38sp revolver?

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

.38 Special circa 1899
.357 Magnum circa 1935

My chiefs special is a keeper, shootable and easy to concel.

 

[Jose]

The .38 Special revolver is the quintessential American handgun.

 

[jar]

Because 357s in an ultralight j-frame hurt like a BITCH.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvd9ELvOoiE

 

[Beansie_Time]

The .38 Special revolver is the quintessential American handgun.

Agreed.

Jose I'll trade you a busted old Pontiac for any of your revolvers.

 

[appraiser]

there are only 4 guns left on my buy list, for sentimental reasons. A model 10 4 inch, A k-17 22lr revolver 6 inch, a colt detective special,and some sort of a 1911

the 4 guns my dad had when I was growing up, that I always wanted to own, and thought I'd inherit someday.

I used to borrow the K-17 and go up to Cape Ann's Sportsmens for the Sunday morning public shoot. It was cheaper to shoot than my Model 13, even when reloads were 5 bucks a box.

When my dad died in 1992 I tore the house apart looking for them and I never did find them.

Someday..... I'd really like a model 10, reminded me of when dad came home after work, and he'd unload the gun and put his handcuffs through the frame with the cylinder swung open to child proof it.

40+ years later and I still remember it like it was yesterday

 

[depicts]

there are only 4 guns left on my buy list, for sentimental reasons. A model 10 4 inch, A k-17 22lr revolver 6 inch, a colt detective special,and some sort of a 1911


40+ years later and I still remember it like it was yesterday

Those are some darn good guns. Some of the ones I got the first year I started collecting S&W. I don't have a Colt Detective Special, but I do have a Colt Police positive, and it's a great gun.

You might see one or two in here you like.

Opps, I thought the Model 17 was in that shot. Must have missed it.

 

[cobblepot]

If I'm shooting a bunch of 38's in my 357, I bring a couple of empty 357 cases that I bell the mouth out to a tight fit in the cylinder. Nickle plated ones work well. I just push them in and use them as a quick scraper to scrape out the carbon rings and then I am good to go with the 357's. It works fine until I get home and do a proper clean.

 

[Geoff C]

357 air weight is about $700 where 38 air weight is about $400

 

[jobowker]

No point. Generally for me just 158 grain SWC.

 

[ruhip]

Why .38 special ?

I think the main reason why the .38 special round is still around is that it probally has most documented bad guy stops than any other caliber. There may be many reasons for this (police records, was an issued carry gun for years etc.). I could be wrong but check the stats.

 

[Bill Nance]

But let me ask you - do you guys really have that much problem shooting .357 after you've been running .38 in your revolver? I mean, sure, sometimes my .357 brass will stick in the cylinder if I go directly from .38 to .357 in the same range session. But I've never found the rings to be a PITA in the long run: routine cleaning has always taken care of that. But then again, I don't shoot my revolver nearly as much as some of you. Is it enough to keep someone who's primarily going to shoot .38 anyway to go with a .38sp revolver over a .357? Thoughts?

I've never had an issue with this but we keep our guns in spotless condition.

If the issue is about a carry gun, he should pick the gun he wants to carry and not get too worried about caliber. You're 1000 times better off with even a .25 that you actually carry and shoot well with than with a "superior" caliber that you can't shoot well with at all.

The super-duper gunfight pistol that is locked in your safe or with which you can't hit the broad side of a barn doesn't do you a lot of good if the SHTF.

 

[TonyT]

I was working with a new shooter over the weekend, and he asked me a question I couldn't answer, so I was hoping to get some help here.

I had recommended a .357 magnum revolver for his first gun, and we were discussing the value of being able to shoot .38sp and .357mag from the same gun. So he asked me a fairly straightforward question: if all .357 magnum revolvers shoot .38special cartridges, but you're limited to just .38sp with a .38 revolver, what's the point of a .38 revolver? Is there any benefit to having a .38 over a .357 revolver?

For concealed carry with a light alloy framed revolver I would not be comfortable with one chambered in 357 magnum.

 

[depicts]

For concealed carry with a light alloy framed revolver I would not be comfortable with one chambered in 357 magnum.

TonyT you may have misunderstood the question, as the chambering of the carry gun was not the intent.

Even in a .357 chambered lightweight gun, you could carry .38 Special to no ill effect. There would be little difference from carrying a .38 revolver.

The question is, if the .357 is so versitile, why do they even BOTHER to make a .38 any more.

Several people have made good attempts to give a real reason, but the answwer was from Vell..... "Who needs a reason."

 

[Jose]

There are a LOT of people six feet under due to the .38 Smith & Wesson Special (the cartridge's original name).

 

[Coyote33]

I thought my answer that they can user cheaper materials and construction, and therefore make the gun less expensive.

 

[Jose]

I thought my answer that they can user cheaper materials and construction, and therefore make the gun less expensive.

The steel used to make .38 Special revolvers and .357s is almost always the same. The heat treatment may be different.

 

[ED_P]

The steel used to make .38 Special revolvers and .357s is almost always the same. The heat treatment may be different.

The airweight series of .38 +P S&W guns, like the 442, are 14 ozs and cost about $460-$485 at most gun stores, due to the light aluminum frame. Due to the use of aluminum, the frame cannot handle .357 rounds.

The equivalent Scandium S&W .357 guns (340PD, etc...) are 2 ozs. lighter, but due to the exotic materials needed (Scandium alloy frame- scandium is very rare and takes refining lots or raw earth to get even a small amount, and titanium cylinder- titanium is very hard to mill) the gun ends up costing around $850-$900.

 

[Jose]

The airweight series of .38 +P S&W guns, like the 442, are 14 ozs and cost about $460-$485 at most gun stores, due to the light aluminum frame. Due to the use of aluminum, the frame cannot handle .357 rounds.

The equivalent Scandium S&W .357 guns (340PD, etc...) are 2 ozs. lighter, but due to the exotic materials needed (Scandium alloy frame- scandium is very rare and takes refining lots or raw earth to get even a small amount, and titanium cylinder- titanium is very hard to mill) the gun ends up costing around $850-$900.

True. I was referring to the metallurgical differences between otherwise identical steel revolvers chambered for .38 and .357. Such as the Models 10 and 13.

 

[depicts]

True. I was referring to the metallurgical differences between otherwise identical steel revolvers chambered for .38 and .357. Such as the Models 10 and 13.

Right Jose. Scandium is only about 1% of the same aluminum alloy used in the 442 and 642, and it adds two or three hundred dollars to the price.

Steel 38's and steel .357's are about the same. My guess is that if anything is treated for hardness more in the .357, it would only be the cylinder and/or barrel.

 

[redtail]

The 38 Special has this psychotic low status here in America these days, a viewpoint of younger shooters who think it is useless as a cartridge, more of a popgun than anything that could be interesting. There are a number of reasons why, most are rooted in Hollywood and the media. Here in America everything is all about power, recoil, and blowing heads clean off kind of nonsense, or having 17 rounds in a magazine, even though shot placement remains (and forever will remain) as the most important part of every shot you ever take, at a can or at a BG. Through the steady underpowering of factory ammo over the last 25 years, today's normal SJHP 38 ammo is a 850-900 fps bullet, many HPs won't expand at these low speeds. +P increases it a little, but not much, and not even close to what were maximum loadings/pressure in the manuals of 35 years ago and longer. A fair amount of factory +P ammo today won't exit a 4" barrel going 1000 fps. Before about 1970-75, this cartridge was commonly loaded to velocities of 1100 & 1200 fps, with a few examples that surpassed 1300 fps while staying below maximum pressure. When loaded properly, the truth is that it is a powerful cartridge. The 38 is a great cartridge, for plinking or self defense, anyone who thinks otherwise is not well informed. It is more than worthy to hold down your personal fort. As for popularity, consider that S&W has had in production the K frame 38 Special revolver since 1899 nonstop. To this day, an M&P/Model 10 or a Chiefs Special remain among the best values to be found on the used shelves, for someone looking for a good all around plinker/house gun/ccw gun.

 

[Jose]

Before about 1970-75, this cartridge was commonly loaded to velocities of 1100 & 1200 fps, with a few examples that surpassed 1300 fps while staying below maximum pressure.

Do you happen to have any catalogs or literature showing that?

I've heard the same before but have never seen it documented. Also, which bullet weight are you talking about?

 

[Jose]

The .38 Special +P is not the sissy that many people think it is.

I found this website: Firearms Tactical Institute that has what supposedly is FBI test data for various .38 Special loads.

Scroll about 7/8 down and you will find FBI test data for my favorite factory loading: Remington's 158 grain lead SWC hollow point +P. 15 inches of penetration and expasion to .6" in bare gelatin and 13.8" of penetration and .58" expansion on denim-covered gel are impressive numbers no matter what cartridge we are talking about. And the firearm listed as used was a 3" S&W Model 13 (not surprisingly since that used to be the Bureau's issue handgun). Things get even better with a 4" revolver where the load comes close to breaking 900 fps.

 

[redtail]

Yes I do. Eenie-meenie-miynee-mow....I'll pick the Lyman 41st, from 1957. The following are for heavy framed guns only: 148 Gr. Hollow base 7.7 grains Unique for 1285 fps 13.5 grains 2400 for 1380 fps!!! 150 Gr Thompson HP/gas check 6.4 grains Unique for 1154 fps 13.5 grains 2400 for 1227 fps 155 Grain Keith HP/HB 12.0 grains 2400 for 1228 fps Standard target loads (not for heavy framed guns only): 148 Gr wadcutter 3.5 grains Bullseye for 960 fps 5.2 grains Unique for 1006 fps And the list goes on. The standard loads I post to compare with what is a standard 38 Special load of today significantly less than these are. I've shot quite a lot of 1000+ fps reloads in a few different J frames along with an M&P and a 1958 Model 10-2, none of these guns show any sign of wear, all are still tight. The Model 10 has eaten probably 700 rounds of +1100 fps 38 Specials and there is no endshake, nothing is loose, and it actually LIKES them (173 grain Keith's) as far as the groups I can shoot. I know this sounds crazy today, but it was normal 40 years ago. Which of course brings up reloading. Thats another point of any revolver, you have tons more freedom with your own handloads, you don't have to fully resize or get too anal about trimming. If you are reloading for a semi, suddenly it becomes a lot more about the operation of the action, ftf/fte, rather than the shot you can take.

 

[Jose]

Yes I do. Eenie-meenie-miynee-mow....I'll pick the Lyman 41st, from 1957. The following are for heavy framed guns only: 148 Gr. Hollow base 7.7 grains Unique for 1285 fps 13.5 grains 2400 for 1380 fps!!! 150 Gr Thompson HP/gas check 6.4 grains Unique for 1154 fps 13.5 grains 2400 for 1227 fps 155 Grain Keith HP/HB 12.0 grains 2400 for 1228 fps Standard target loads (not for heavy framed guns only): 148 Gr wadcutter 3.5 grains Bullseye for 960 fps 5.2 grains Unique for 1006 fps And the list goes on. The standard loads I post to compare with what is a standard 38 Special load of today significantly less than these are. I've shot quite a lot of 1000+ fps reloads in a few different J frames along with an M&P and a 1958 Model 10-2, none of these guns show any sign of wear, all are still tight. The Model 10 has eaten probably 700 rounds of +1100 fps 38 Specials and there is no endshake, nothing is loose, and it actually LIKES them (173 grain Keith's) as far as the groups I can shoot. I know this sounds crazy today, but it was normal 40 years ago. Which of course brings up reloading. Thats another point of any revolver, you have tons more freedom with your own handloads, you don't have to fully resize or get too anal about trimming. If you are reloading for a semi, suddenly it becomes a lot more about the operation of the action, ftf/fte, rather than the shot you can take.

I was talking about factory ammo. I thought you said factory .38 Special ammo has been made progressively weaker over the years.

Like you, I routinely use data from out of print manuals. Guns do not get weaker over the years.

 

[depicts]

Do you happen to have any catalogs or literature showing that?

I've heard the same before but have never seen it documented. Also, which bullet weight are you talking about?

Jose, I have "The Complete Guide To Hand loading", Third Edition, Second revision, authored by the renowned Philip B. Sharpe, first published in 1937, and my copy published in 1953. Google Philip Sharpe if you don't know the name offhand. As a contemporary of Harry M. Pope, who Sharpe called "The Old Master", and Elmer Keith, Sharpe has the Bone Fides to back up his publications.

Sharpe lists maybe 200 loads for the .38 S&W Special. They range from 73 grain bullets, up to 200 grain bullets. They include loads with common powders of the time including Bullseye, Unique (Still my two favorite powders), SR80, Her. Red Dot, and a 200 grain bullet load using "Infallible" powder, recommended by Maj Julian Hatcher.

Let me make this short by saying there are loads that range from 1400 fps, to as low as 480 fps for a Hercules load of a 200 grain bullet.

If I just stick with loads for 146 grain bullets, to the 160 grain Keith bullet, there are MANY loads that exceed 1285 fps with Unique with a 146 grain bullet with a breech pressure of 28,000 pounds, all the way up to 1150 fps with a 158 grain bullet behind 11 grains of SR80 powder good for 38,000 pounds of breech pressure, as recommended by DuPont.

The fastest load I see is 1511 fps for a 146 grain bullet using 16 grains of Herc 2400 with a breech pressure of 35,000 pounds.

These loads are all from a 6 inch barrel, and include a few that state the velocity is achieved with corrosive primers. I don't know if more modern non-corrosive primers would produce more or less velocity vs pressure.

One of my favorite loads is a 158 grain bullet at 1130 fps using 6.6 grains of Uniques, with a breech pressure of a mild 20,900 pounds.

If you can find a copy of Sharpe's manual, I think you'd freak out. His handgun loading table include .25, .32 S&W, .357 S&W Magnum, .44 S&W, and a ton of other loads, too numerous to mention.

You might find a copy at ABLE BOOKS or some of the other Firearms related specialty book shops on line.

I got my copy when the Wrentham, MA public library sold off excess/ obsolete books in 1980. It's remarkable that there is a sticker in the cover of the book that says: "Purchased by the Fiske Public Library, 1965 through State Aid to Public Libraries." It was put on the shelves in Wrentham in 1966.

I'm sure there are other manuals out there, but Philip Sharpe was THE MAN in those days.

Bill

 

[BillO]

All of the S&W 38/357 snubbies have been made on the standard "J-M" frame for quite some time. The old model 36 was based on the original "J" frame.

 

[depicts]

All of the S&W 38/357 snubbies have been made on the standard "J-M" frame for quite some time. The old model 36 was based on the original "J" frame.

BillO, the "M" frame in S&W guns is the smallest framed gun they ever produced. It was never made for any caliber over .22 Long.

Colt may have had an "M" frame snubby of some sort, but I don't dwell on the dark side of revolvers.

As for Smith and Wesson, they have been known to make Snub 38's on the J frame (Mod 36, 37, 38, 49 ect) and also on the K and N frames. K frames include the Mod 10, 11, 12, 15, 19 and more) In the N frames, you have the 38/44 Outdoorsman, Mod 27, 28, the Pre Mod 27 Registered Magnum and others as well.

While sometimes stocking dealers would call a nickel gun a "M" frame, it was really the finish they were talking about. There was also one "D" frame snub 38 made, and one Improved "I" frame with a stretched cylinder, known as the Baby Chief, and which was the rorerunner of the Mod 36 Chiefs Special.

 

[BillO]

BillO, the "M" frame in S&W guns is the smallest framed gun they ever produced. It was never made for any caliber over .22 Long.

Colt may have had an "M" frame snubby of some sort, but I don't dwell on the dark side of revolvers.

As for Smith and Wesson, they have been known to make Snub 38's on the J frame (Mod 36, 37, 38, 49 ect) and also on the K and N frames. K frames include the Mod 10, 11, 12, 15, 19 and more) In the N frames, you have the 38/44 Outdoorsman, Mod 27, 28, the Pre Mod 27 Registered Magnum and others as well.

While sometimes stocking dealers would call a nickel gun a "M" frame, it was really the finish they were talking about. There was also one "D" frame snub 38 made, and one Improved "I" frame with a stretched cylinder, known as the Baby Chief, and which was the rorerunner of the Mod 36 Chiefs Special.

I'm not talking about a "M" frame, I'm talking about the "JM" frame which is now used on all currently produced S&W J-Frames. From what I understand, when S&W began marketing the 357 version of the J-frame, certain improvements had to be made to accommodate the more powerful round. So, from my understanding, the cylinder was lengthened and the frame was made stronger. For ease of tooling the 38 line were then made to the "new" J frame specs which is now referred as the JM frame.

 

[BillO]

I just looked it up and found this in "The Gun Digest Book of Smith and Wesson", by Patrick Sweeney.


“The 442 sports an aluminum alloy frame with a steel five-shot cylinder. It is built on the J Magnum frame. The 442 was introduced in 1993 on the standard frame size, but later the frame was enlarged to the J Magnum probably to keep the number of parts needed for all models as small as possible. After all, why have both J and J Magnum frames in inventory.”

 

[depicts]

I just looked it up and found this in "The Gun Digest Book of Smith and Wesson", by Patrick Sweeney.


“The 442 sports an aluminum alloy frame with a steel five-shot cylinder. It is built on the J Magnum frame. The 442 was introduced in 1993 on the standard frame size, but later the frame was enlarged to the J Magnum probably to keep the number of parts needed for all models as small as possible. After all, why have both J and J Magnum frames in inventory.”

Right on Bill0. There is in fact a J "Magnum" frame, though I have never seen it referred to as the J-M frame. The cylinder stop.that keeps the cylinder from sliding off the ejector rod when you open the cylinder used to be a small round metal cam that prevented the cylinder from falling off. You're right that in fact they improved the cylinder stop for the Magnum versions, and then converted ALL J frame production to that type of cylinder stop.

Jose and I were just posting about this the other day when someone else asked the difference between a J frame .38 and a J frame .357. The heat treating and metals may be different, but the physical size and characteristics of the J frames are indeed identical now.

I'm glad you quoted a source and came back at me. +6 for proving your point, and helping me understand what it was you were really saying.

Bill