What type of scale do you use while reloading?

[Rockrivr1]

I bought a PACT Electronic Scale to start reloading with and I'm always having to calibrate it whenever it is shut off. Sometimes the calibration works and sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, I have to do it again. This has me wondering when the calibration actually changes. When it's shut off or maybe when I'm using it. For whatever reason, it has me not trusting it. I'm thinking of getting an older balance beam style scale. It may be slower, but at least it will be accurate. I thing?!?!?!

So, what type of scale do you trust the most? Is the one you trust the most actually the one you use or do you use one that is faster that you may not trust as much?

Lastly, what brand to you use and consider the best for the money you paid?

 

[EddieCoyle]

So, what type of scale do you trust the most? Is the one you trust the most actually the one you use or do you use one that is faster that you may not trust as much?

Lastly, what brand to you use and consider the best for the money you paid?

I use a PACT digital scale. There's a trick: Don't shut it off (No, I'm not kidding). Also, isolate it from sources of electronic "noise" by making sure that it is not on the same electrical circuit as anything with a motor.

I've been using one with 100% confidence for years. Before I start to load, I simply hit the "Tare" button and go. It was accurate out of the box, and I've never had to calibrate it.

 

[M1911]

I use a balance beam. I was too cheap to get a digital scale at the time.

 

[GTOShootr]

I have the Pact Precision digital scale. I just leave it on all the time and it seems to stay calibrated according to the calibrating weights it came with. If I move it or shut it off, I recalibrate it before I start loading anything important. I know the pan weighs 121 grains, if I take the pan off and it is different than -121grains, I recalibrate.

What kind of lights are about your scale? Fluorescent lighting is said to affect digital scales. You may want to do a search over in the www.brianenos.com forum. Brian has a relationship with Pact and I remember there being a lot of info on the site about their scales. I'd call Pact too.

I like my Pact scale a lot more than I liked my Pact chrono.

 

[GTOShootr]

There's a trick: Don't shut it off (No, I'm not kidding).

I'm glad I'm not the only one that said that.

 

[bpm990d]

You might try and plug it into a UPS so that it gets filtered/regulated power.
I use a digital RCBS that is a green version a PACT Chargmaster combo that was sold by RCBS a few years ago. I also have a balance beam scale that came with a reloading kit. I think it is a 5-0-5.

The only important thing about your scale is does your ammo shoot well in the application you are using it for. You can upgrade to a laboratory grade scale from someone like Denver Instruments, but my guess is that your scores will remain the same.

B

 

[adweisbe]

I use a Lee safety scale. Slow, but accurate and it does not go far out of adjustment if at all. I would say it is a great value. The disadvantage is that I cannot weight more then 110 grains. Cost was twelve dollars.

 

[Rockrivr1]

You know it's funny because I was just saying the same thing about the power on the scale. I left it on after the last calibration. BUT, I have it on the same power stip I have a florescent light on and how I've been running a wet/dry vac. Hummmm, guess I'll move the plug for the vac to somewhere else.

No UPS. I wish.

 

[PatMcD]

I have found the digital scales to be more trouble than they are worth. I've gone back to my trusty RCBS 10-10. I still use the digital for weighing individual things, such as "how much does this case weigh", but for powder charges, I like the beam scale.

 

[bpm990d]

There are some guys that have $700 - $1000 tied up in a scale. too rich for my blood.

B

 

[EddieCoyle]

OK. Not to be didactic or long-winded (which means I'm going to be both), here's my primer on electronic scales, why and how to use them, and what to watch out for.

First off, I've worked in and around the sensor industry for over 25 years.

Here's what I know about electronic scales:

Electronic scales have three major parts: a strain gage (or strain gages arranged in a Wheatstone Bridge), signal conditioning electronics, and control/readout features. Technically speaking, a strain gage is a transducer. A transducer has an electrical output that changes in proportion to a physical stimulus (it also works the other way - a transducer can be a device that changes a physical attribute based on an electrical stimulus - but that's not we're talking about here). When force is applied to a strain gage, it changes an electrical characteristic - resistance, inductance, capacitance, etc - (usually resistance), that change is interpreted by the signal conditioning electronics, and is displayed by the readout.

You put a force on a strain gage (the additional mass caused by dumping powder in a pan) and its resistance changes. This change in resistance is "read" by the signal conditioning electronics, modified/interpreted by the control algorithms, and displayed on a digital readout.

There are three specs that indicate the accuracy of these devices. These are - in order of importance for cheap (less than $1000) weighing devices - Thermal effect, linearity, and repeatability. I'll explain them in reverse order:

• Repeatability - Specifies the device's ability to display the same weight the same way time after time. This is very good, even on very cheap devices.
• Linearity - Specifies the device's ability to proportionally "track" the physical input (weight) through its specified range accurately. On cheap devices, this is great through the middle of the range, but breaks down when you're trying to weigh on the extreme ends (lowest or highest weight) of the device's range. This is inconsequential for us because we don't weigh full powder charges of .1 grains or 7000 grains.
• Thermal Effect - OK. Here's the one we've got to worry about. changes in temperature affect the readings. Temperature changes affect the strain gages (a lot), as well as the signal conditioning electronics (enough to worry about, but not so much). High-end manufacturers spend big money on components to minimize this effect - that's why they're high end. Some go as far as to install heaters and thermostats to ensure that everything is at the same (elevated) temperature, every time. You're not going to get this kind of engineering in any device that costs you less than $1000.

So, how do you maximize the accuracy of your "cheap" device? Here's how:

1. Leave it on all the time. This minimizes the thermal effect. By leaving the device powered up, everything "warms up" and stabilizes. Also, If you have a "tare" button, press it before each reloading session. Again, this will cancel out any drift caused by temperature changes, as well as any changes in electrical or other factors (battery drain, etc.) that can affect weighing.
2. Make sure your scale is level, and that there are no mechanical forces (breezes, etc.) that can skew your readings. The Laws Of Physics are not suspended just because you're using a digital scale.
3. Eliminate electrical noise. This can be tricky. Electrical noise - radio frequency interference (RFI), electro-magnetic interference (EMI), as well as transients (voltage spikes) can be hard (even for experts) to diagnose and prevent. If your scale plugs into an electrical outlet, make sure that there are no inductive loads (motors, fluorescent lights with ballasts, solenoids, etc) on the same circuit. These can cause the signal conditioning electronics to misinterpret the signal from the transducer. This is especially important in "cheap" devices (less than $1000).

Follow these guidelines and even the cheapest $20 eBay scale from China can be used to weigh powder charges.

If you're careful about it, almost any electronic scale will outperform a beam balance, both in speed and accuracy.

Whew!

 

[jhrosier]

I'm a vintage guy, and I have a vintage scale. My Lyman-Ohaus M1010 has worked perfectly since 1969. Batteries not needed.
Goes to 1000grs +/- 0.1 gr. and is magnetically damped.
As long as we don't loose gravity, I'm good to go (if we do, I'm going flying!).

Seriously, always buy the best quality reloading equipment because you're going to have it for a long, long time.

 

[highlander]

Dillon digital gave up on the balance beam scales those little hash marks were getting tough to read.

 

[Gammon]

I am a long time reloader and admitted "gadget freak". I have more presses than I really need and have replaced most of my reloading equipment several times over. Except for the cheapo Lyman beam scale that came with my first reloading kit. Why? Because it works too well to replace.

 

[bpm990d]

OK. Not to be didactic or long-winded (which means I'm going to be both), here's my primer on electronic scales....

Not at all. Very nice post.

Thanks

B

 

[C-pher]

I have the Dillon Digital. But that's because the guy that I bought the press off of gave it to me along with everything else in the box.

I have found that you can't be anywhere near an A/C vent...or even a small fan across the room. The slightest breeze will make the scale go hoopy.

 

[Supermoto]

I use a Lee safety scale, works well for pistol and rifle, I also have a Frankfort Arsenal electronic scale. It seems to drift alot, and it turns off after 2 minutes, so its not very uselfull

 

[BillO]

I use a Dillon digital scale and calibrate it each time before using it.

 

[Patriot]

RCBS10-10 Balance beam - Just got a Dillon Electronic Scale but haven't used it
yet except to measure some bullets that I didn't know the weight of.

TBP

 

[TonyD]

Rcbs 10-10.

 

[jkelly]

+1 EddieCoyle

EddieCoyle said it very, very well!


I'd add only:

If your are not only checking that the thrown charge is close to the desired weight, but are trying to maximize accuracy, I’d suggest to approach the desired weight from the same side.

That is, throw a little under the desired weight and trickle powder until you reach the desired weight. This increases the scales/your “repeatability”.

But a beam scale is generally more accurate for this the an (cheaper) electronic scale.

Check weights close to the weight you are throwing are a good idea, and a ferrite on the AC power line will help with noise.


Respectfully,

Jkelly

 

[TonyD]

Well, I just got done trying what jkelly suggested. It didn't last very long. I put a ferret on the electric cord and as soon as I turned my back he bit into the cord and went as stiff as a board. Then, his hair caught fire, and the smell! It was disgusting... I don't see how using a ferret could possible help with noise.

 

[BillO]

Well, I just got done trying what jkelly suggested. It didn't last very long. I put a ferret on the electric cord and as soon as I turned my back he bit into the cord and went as stiff as a board. Then, his hair cut fire, and the smell! It was disgusting... I don't see how using a ferret could possible help with noise.

 

[Plink]

Well, I just got done trying what jkelly suggested. It didn't last very long. I put a ferret on the electric cord and as soon as I turned my back he bit into the cord and went as stiff as a board. Then, his hair caught fire, and the smell! It was disgusting... I don't see how using a ferret could possible help with noise.

LMAO

 

[jkelly]

Well, I just got done trying what jkelly suggested. It didn't last very long. I put a ferret on the electric cord and as soon as I turned my back he bit into the cord and went as stiff as a board. Then, his hair caught fire, and the smell! It was disgusting... I don't see how using a ferret could possible help with noise.---TonyD

That was good! I id have to go back and check my spelling to see if I was in error.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[TonyD]

You weren't in error that I know of - just trying to lighten the mood a little.

Regards,

 

[RKG]

While Eddie Coyle's description of how an electronic scale works is superb, it simply reinforces why I wouldn't use one, especially if the scale were being used to make a charge (as opposed to periodically verifying a charge).

Two words: failure modes.

I spend a lot of time dealing with solid state electronics, and I know from experience that they can fail so as to produce erroneous results, or be subject to outside influences that produce erroneous results, in many and sometimes mysterious ways.

Three quick examples:

A) I cannot transmit on my Part 90 portable radio from the kitchen, as it will cause the GFI outlets to trip. (Why: the solid state electronics rectify the high frequency RF, which the circuit then "sees" as current flow across the points under test.)

B) When the BAPERN system was built out in Massachusetts, using a then-new band (470-476 MHz), we found that transmitting from a mobile radio within a couple of hundred yards of a closed commercial establishment would set off the general burglar alarms. (Not entirely sure why, but I suspect that the alarms used FDD-A (Class A Field Disturbance Devices) detectors, and the cruiser radio's RF overloaded the solid state electronics in the FDDs to produce a "trip" signal.)

C) Many years ago, the Smith & Wesson company manufactured the original Breathalyzer machine, the Model 900A. In simple terms, the device used comparative colorimetry to scale BAC, and it measured differential colorimetry by competing two cesiuim cell outputs through a galvanometer. Device worked quite well. Then some MBA-type got the brilliant idea of replacing the $2 galvanometer with a $0.25 ASIC that included a volt meter and two LM747 op amps (thus saving $1.75 of the cost of a machine selling for $1,800, and in which S&W had a virtual monopoly). Unfortunately, in the RF environments in which Breathalyzers tend to be used, the op amps would rectify the high frequency RF and produce erroneous results (could be in either direction). Within two years, the Breathalyzer was off the market.

The electronic scales in use today do not include any supervision, which means some independent means of detecting if the reading is out of normal by some set permitted error. It would not be hard to design some form of internal error detection, but it would increase the cost of the scale, possibly by a factor of 2 or more. So with what's available today, all you know when the display says "2.7" is that the display is saying "2.7." Could be right; usually will be; but you have no way of knowing.

Kept clean, and used on a level platform free of vibration, the balance beam scale has no real mode of failure that would not produce a grossly (and obviously) anomolous reading.