Video: A takedown for Law Enforcement to prevent another Eric Garner situation

[GPP]

Training in the technique demonstrated specifically?

Garner was not combative or aggressive in any way prior to being grabbed and the lack of non-compliance he exhibited was pulling his arm away and putting them in the air when his arm was grabbed, and nothing more. Based on that I would assume you feel only verbal commands should have been used, correct?

Specific training on that specific technique specifically speaking? No, I don't. But I do have enough training in other specific techniques, as well as a metric shit ton of real world experience, with subjects of different sizes, shapes, and colors, to know what works and what doesn't.

Maybe, the guy that made the video can remake it with his demonstrator doing exactly what Garner did, being the same size as Garner, and showing the same non compliance as Garner. Wouldn't that give a more fair assessment then the training video that appears to fix all of our LE takedown problems magically?
Ive asked it before, what do you think should be the next step once verbal commands are ignored? Is it right that we put our hands on people? Or to kick people like the video suggests?

 

[SpaceCritter]

Ive genuflected 20 times for typing Dorner instead of Garner, and even thanked Bones for correcting me. Would you like me to juggle flaming kittens or something?

Wow. Oversensitive.

I did watch the video, and it didn't go down with Garner the way the video depicted it, have you watched the Garner video?

Yup. If the video evidence of the takedown is insufficient, at least as is germane to this discussion, please feel free to elucidate.

I have 26 years of doing this stupid job, and have multiple instances/stories whatever you want to call it where Ive gotten my ass kicked, kicked someones ass, etc etc etc. I also did quite a bit of boxing. So yes, I would suggest to you that these techniques work much better with similarly sized individuals.

Then maybe you're doing it wrong.

Now I have to call our Dept IT guy in to get 4 hours of overtime because I don't know how to change the ****ing font back on my computer.

Here on NES, I merely had to select the text in question and uncheck the "I" button. I'm wary of offering further solutions lest I crap on someone else's contract.

 

[GPP]

Wow. Oversensitive.


Yup. If the video evidence of the takedown is insufficient, at least as is germane to this discussion, please feel free to elucidate.



Then maybe you're doing it wrong.



Here on NES, I merely had to select the text in question and uncheck the "I" button. I'm wary of offering further solutions lest I crap on someone else's contract.

Maybe Im doing it wrong, but at least Ive elucidated as to why I feel Im doing it right. You offer nothing but a training video, that will magically fix anything. Kind of like that spray rubber the guy on the commercial uses to fix his boat after he puts a bunch of cannon balls thru it.

 

[Bonesinium]

Depends. I'm a bid jaded. If there was an elimination of all arrests for petty non-violent nonsense I'd be much more sympathetic to the use of force by police on non-compliant suspects. The problem is generally when involving non-compliant individuals that often have no lawful reason to comply in the first place.

Secondly, there needs to be a difference on how things are handled when dealing with passive resistance and non-compliance vs. active resistance. Generally people aren't happy about being arrested, so cops shouldn't expect them to comply with every demand or someone pulling away when they get grabbed. It's a normal reaction.

I don't have all the answers. An escalation of force should not occur simply because of passive resistance. If someone pulls away when you go to cuff them, and that is all they are doing, try again. Unless they escalate things there is no reason for a cop to.

Garner pulled away after a cop tried to grab his arm. He was almost immediately grabbed around the neck and tackled. They didn't even bother to try anything else. The escalated the situation immediately. Had he beat, killed, robbed, or raped someone, different story.

 

[GPP]

Depends. I'm a bid jaded. If there was an elimination of all arrests for petty non-violent nonsense I'd be much more sympathetic to the use of force by police on non-compliant suspects. The problem is generally when involving non-compliant individuals that often have no lawful reason to comply in the first place.

Secondly, there needs to be a difference on how things are handled when dealing with passive resistance and non-compliance vs. active resistance. Generally people aren't happy about being arrested, so cops shouldn't expect them to comply with every demand or someone pulling away when they get grabbed. It's a normal reaction.

I don't have all the answers. An escalation of force should not occur simply because of passive resistance. If someone pulls away when you go to cuff them, and that is all they are doing, try again. Unless they escalate things there is no reason for a cop to.

Garner pulled away after a cop tried to grab his arm. He was almost immediately grabbed around the neck and tackled. They didn't even bother to try anything else. The escalated the situation immediately. Had he beat, killed, robbed, or raped someone, different story.

All valid and somewhat accurate observations in my opinion as well. But, it just goes to show you that there isn't a real answer for any given scenario other than, use the least amount of force necessary to affect the arrest and put the subject in custody, end of story. All this other crap is just crap, some of which works, some of which doesn't, similar to shooting and guns. Ill try this Glock and if I don't like it, Ill sell it for that Kimber.

 

[Bonesinium]

I agree with one expansion. Unless dealing with crimes involving violence, all options not involving arresting or putting the subject in custody should be attempted first. Otherwise, yes, that is basically it.

I think one of the reasons unnecessary force is used is based on ease. It is often easier and quicker to use more force or escalate the force level, so rather then having some patience, that is what occurs. If you notice, most of the notable examples, the whole thing takes place from initial police encounter in a short period of time. The examples where some patience is displayed usually result in a much less violent or forcefully ending. Not always, but often.

 

[SpaceCritter]

Maybe Im doing it wrong, but at least Ive elucidated as to why I feel Im doing it right. You offer nothing but a training video, that will magically fix anything. Kind of like that spray rubber the guy on the commercial uses to fix his boat after he puts a bunch of cannon balls thru it.

Maybe Im doing it wrong, but at least Ive elucidated as to why I feel Im doing it right. You offer nothing but a training video, that will magically fix anything. Kind of like that spray rubber the guy on the commercial uses to fix his boat after he puts a bunch of cannon balls thru it.

I posted a video, with the hope that it would generate useful discussion and constructive criticism. It offers an alternative to a scenario that has left certain communities inflamed and several police officers DEAD, and others under a legal cloud. Methinks this at least warrants respectful attention.

And your criticisms tend to focus on minutiae such as the relative size of the combatants. I've been around the martial arts community long enough to know that's bullshit. I'm 5' 7.5" and 165, and I know a number of guys - especially Filipinos (or FMA-trained) - who make me look like a giant, and who would kick the ass of a 6' 5" 280 pound guy (let alone me).

 

[Squire]

All I know is that sticking your finger in a guy's eye socket (with the eyeball in it) to get better hold to pull him down after kicking him in the back of the knee to get him to fold (the knee, which is likely already bent and your kick might likely break a fibula) doesn't really resemble adjectives like "low-impact", "gentle", or "won't get me sued for police brutality".

 

[bandaid bandit]

Beanbag rounds to the 'sack for everyone.


Sent from the dark side.

 

[SpaceCritter]

All I know is that sticking your finger in a guy's eye socket (with the eyeball in it) to get better hold to pull him down after kicking him in the back of the knee to get him to fold (the knee, which is likely already bent and your kick might likely break a fibula) doesn't really resemble adjectives like "low-impact", "gentle", or "won't get me sued for police brutality".

I've done it (the kick to the back of the knee) many times, and have had it done to me many times. The result is collapsing backwards and INTO the one doing the technique, and the result is a fairly gentle takedown.

Choking a suspect to death, OTOH, WILL get you sued, your city rioted, and officers dead. Your pick.

 

[GPP]

I posted a video, with the hope that it would generate useful diit.cussion and constructive criticism. It offers an alternative to a scenario that has left certain communities inflamed and several police officers DEAD, and others under a legal cloud. Methinks this at least warrants respectful attention.

And your criticisms tend to focus on minutiae such as the relative size of the combatants. I've been around the martial arts community long enough to know that's bullshit. I'm 5' 7.5" and 165, and I know a number of guys - especially Filipinos (or FMA-trained) - who make me look like a giant, and who would kick the ass of a 6' 5" 280 pound guy (let alone me).

Wait a minute, are we talking academy trained NYPD officers or those only that have " been around the martial arts community long enough to know thats bullshit"
Or maybe only the Fillipino NYPD officers that are FMA trained?
I assume, because youve been around the martial arts community long enough to know what is and isnt bullshit, youdbe able to give me a legitimate number of times youd have practice that particular move on another person for it to become muscle memory, right?
The minutiae you speak of is actually the reality.
You posted in the LEO bubbas section looking for some constructive discussion. I gave you some constructive construction, and used some of my 26 years of experience as an LEO to give some real life stuff as opposed to look at this video and its magic capabilities stuff. Now it seems youre butthurt about my response? I guess that makes sense.

You need to remember, we arent talking about kicking anyones ass are we. We are discussing the takedown technique you posted.
Can a little guy kick the shit out of a big guy? Of course. But thats not what we were discussing was it.

 

[AntiHippie]

So, you want to have the LEOs come up behind a subject, grab his hair, stomp kick the rear of his knee to effect a take down?

Its a completely unrealistic technique.

It also has a high probability of causing connective tissue damage - likely to be a few steps too far up the UOF continuum for an active resistor.

 

[AntiHippie]

I've done it (the kick to the back of the knee) many times, and have had it done to me many times. The result is collapsing backwards and INTO the one doing the technique, and the result is a fairly gentle takedown.

Choking a suspect to death, OTOH, WILL get you sued, your city rioted, and officers dead. Your pick.

I'd be willing to bet the chokehold itself (which I DO agree was NOT okay) wasn't what "choked him to death". I'd be willing to bet positional asphyxia from being an enormously obese dude proned out and restrained was where it went bad.

 

[fortitude42]

I'd be willing to bet the chokehold itself (which I DO agree was NOT okay) wasn't what "choked him to death". I'd be willing to bet positional asphyxia from being an enormously obese dude proned out and restrained was where it went bad.

this technique depicted in the video looks to pose an even greater risk of positional asphyxia based on the "officers" mounted position