Video: A takedown for Law Enforcement to prevent another Eric Garner situation

[SpaceCritter]

[video=youtube_share;xVNcgR4myVw]http://youtu.be/xVNcgR4myVw[/video]

 

[71montess]

Ahh, wax on, wax off. Kunichiwa Sen-say.

 

[SpaceCritter]

Ahh, wax on, wax off. Kunichiwa Sen-say.

Not exactly constructive criticism.

 

[71montess]

Lighten up Francis, tune up your funney bone.

 

[SpaceCritter]

Lighten up Francis, tune up your funney bone.

Well, I did post this over in LEO Bubbas, as opposed to General or Off Topic to engage discussion by and of law enforcement. Are you, perchance, a LEO?

 

[71montess]

Oh , so now your discriminating on a member just cause I might or might not be a cop. I guess you don't even have a funny bone, you must be a LEO.

 

[SpaceCritter]

Oh , so now your discriminating on a member just cause I might or might not be a cop. I guess you don't even have a funny bone, you must be a LEO.

Nope. IT guy. Just looking for constructive discourse.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

 

[GPP]

Wait, are you suggesting that LEOs incorporate this technique or poking fun at it?

 

[BostonVI]

I think Garner had a pretty good chance of going into respiratory distress regardless of how he was taken down. It's difficult to take someone down and have it not be violent, especially against someone resisting.

 

[SpaceCritter]

I think Garner had a pretty good chance of going into respiratory distress regardless of how he was taken down. It's difficult to take someone down and have it not be violent, especially against someone resisting.

Methinks it was Kosakowski's point that you, in fact, can, if it is done properly.

 

[GPP]

I think Garner had a pretty good chance of going into respiratory distress regardless of how he was taken down. It's difficult to take someone down and have it not be violent, especially against someone resisting.

I think you are right. If you watch the above video, youll see he is demonstrating this technique on a compliant subject. The problem is, you wouldn't use that technique on a compliant suspect, because he or she is, well, compliant.
Garner, though not aggressive towards the officers, was non compliant, and the gong show began.
If you were to try and use the above technique on a non compliant subject, its going to turn into a shit show, and then the rest of the cops will pile on.

Im curious as to what NES thinks of this,

Is there any real situation where an LEO should have to put his or her hands on a subject that is going to be placed under arrest at all?
If an arrest is imminent, should the LEO resort to any sort of open hand tactics or take down tactics once the subject has refused to comply to verbal commands?

Im curious as to what everyone here thinks the ROE should be once past verbal commands. Im not talking deadly force scenarios, just arrest/custody situations

 

[BostonVI]

I'll try it at BJJ this week, and I'll get back to you. Its likely effective, but like most take downs requires practice and it's probably not easy to pull off. Sadly most LE get at most a few hours of combatives training a year. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[GPP]

Methinks it was Kosakowski's point that you, in fact, can, if it is done properly.

So, you want to have the LEOs come up behind a subject, grab his hair, stomp kick the rear of his knee to effect a take down?

Its a completely unrealistic technique.

 

[SpaceCritter]

I'll try it at BJJ this week, and I'll get back to you. Its likely effective, but like most take downs requires practice and it's probably not easy to pull off. Sadly most LE get at most a few hours of combatives training a year. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

...and I believe he addresses that towards the end of the video, as well.

 

[GPP]

I'll try it at BJJ this week, and I'll get back to you. Its likely effective, but like most take downs requires practice and it's probably not easy to pull off. Sadly most LE get at most a few hours of combatives training a year. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct, small amount at inservice, and its a joke.

In regards to the "stomp kick to the rear of the knee"

If I stomp kick you in the rear of your knee, while wearing my jack boots, or my Asolos, Ive just assaulted and battered you with a dangerous weapon, haven't I?
Why would anyone want this?
This is why Im curious as to what you think the ROE should be once past verbal commands. I mean, wouldn't you rather I tased you as opposed to kicking you in the knee?

 

[SpaceCritter]

So, you want to have the LEOs come up behind a subject, grab his hair, stomp kick the rear of his knee to effect a take down?

Its a completely unrealistic technique.

Pantaleo was obviously behind Garner when he applied the hold.

- - - Updated - - -

You are correct, small amount at inservice, and its a joke.

In regards to the "stomp kick to the rear of the knee"

If I stomp kick you in the rear of your knee, while wearing my jack boots, or my Asolos, Ive just assaulted and battered you with a dangerous weapon, haven't I?
Why would anyone want this?
This is why Im curious as to what you think the ROE should be once past verbal commands. I mean, wouldn't you rather I tased you as opposed to kicking you in the knee?

A kick to the rear of the knee causes the knee to collapse out to the front. This is the way the knee is designed. It doesn't cause damage.

 

[GPP]

Pantaleo was obviously behind Garner when he applied the hold.

Im aware. And I thought we agreed his technique was wrong, perhaps in some eyes even murderous. Would you rather he grabbed his face as suggested in the video, and then kicked him in the back of the knee?

The point is, there is no perfect answer for every scenario. If you own a big roll around toolbox or a small one, the idea is the same right? You cant accomplish every job with your Estwing hammer. The current crop of entitled LEOs don't need any more tools in regards to proper takedowns, we already have a bunch.
Why not take a stab at my ROE question?

You don't ever want to train cops how to kick anyone. It opens a giant can of worms and will introduce new scenarios as to how I can justify kicking someone in the face because I said I was aiming at the back of your knee.

 

[SpaceCritter]

Im aware. And I thought we agreed his technique was wrong, perhaps in some eyes even murderous. Would you rather he grabbed his face as suggested in the video, and then kicked him in the back of the knee?

Yes.

 

[GPP]

Yes.

Fair enough. I suggest you stay in IT

 

[SpaceCritter]

Fair enough. I suggest you stay in IT

Not an answer. Cop out. (Pardon the pun.)

 

[GPP]

Not an answer. Cop out. (Pardon the pun.)

Not a bad pun. But Ill bite.
Dorner was a big boy. Kick him in the back of the knee after grabbing his face, and IF Dorner goes down, theres a 50/50 % chance he lands on his chest, or his back. Either way, the video then suggests utilizing your bodyweight and all that to keep him compliant blah blah blah. The video shows a compliant, easily manipulated subject, of roughly equal size and mass of the instructor. To make that technique work, youd need the same size pairings to work, AND for Dorner not to resist once he is kicked in the rear of the knee and headed for the ground.
You also mention that a kick to the rear of the knee is not damaging. Sorry, wrong. Maybe the initial kick may not be damaging, but the ensuing fall more than likely will, whether he lands on his front or back.
And teaching cops to kick anyone is just ill advised.

 

[71montess]

Not a bad pun. But Ill bite.
Dorner was a big boy. Kick him in the back of the knee after grabbing his face, and IF Dorner goes down, theres a 50/50 % chance he lands on his chest, or his back. Either way, the video then suggests utilizing your bodyweight and all that to keep him compliant blah blah blah. The video shows a compliant, easily manipulated subject, of roughly equal size and mass of the instructor. To make that technique work, youd need the same size pairings to work, AND for Dorner not to resist once he is kicked in the rear of the knee and headed for the ground.
You also mention that a kick to the rear of the knee is not damaging. Sorry, wrong. Maybe the initial kick may not be damaging, but the ensuing fall more than likely will, whether he lands on his front or back.
And teaching cops to kick anyone is just ill advised.

I envision the kicked one falling uncontrolled to the ground, bashing his head and having an enormous subdural hematoma, possibly leading to death. I can guess this to be very possible and I'm just a plumber. Wax on wax off.

 

[GPP]

I envision the kicked one falling uncontrolled to the ground, bashing his head and having an enormous subdural hematoma, possibly leading to death. I can guess this to be very possible and I'm just a plumber. Wax on wax off.

You say youre just a plumber like its an easy job!!!!!! I do a bit of my own plumbing and you can ****ing keep that noise lol!!!!!!!!

And what youre envisioning happening is more than likely whats going to happen, to some degree. Youre not gonna control a guy to the ground after dynamically kicking him in the back of the knee, especially one built like Dorner

 

[Bonesinium]

To make that technique work, youd need the same size pairings to work, AND for Dorner not to resist once he is kicked in the rear of the knee and headed for the ground.

Well I think you mean Garner, not Dorner, as they used the "burn the house down while he is inside" technique on Dorner. But I digress.

I assume you have training and experience with the technique in the video demonstrated based on your assertion it only works with "the same size pairings" and no resistance. I mean I certainly don't, but it seemed like the guy in the video does and that isn't what he was saying.

For the record, I don't support this technique or any technique of the sorts. However I do think one point is that if any technique of taking someone down from behind is used, that there are techniques that are safer than others. Surely you can understand that.

 

[GPP]

Well I think you mean Garner, not Dorner, as they used the "burn the house down while he is inside" technique on Dorner. But I digress.

I assume you have training and experience with the technique in the video demonstrated based on your assertion it only works with "the same size pairings" and no resistance. I mean I certainly don't, but it seemed like the guy in the video does and that isn't what he was saying.

For the record, I don't support this technique or any technique of the sorts. However I do think one point is that if any technique of taking someone down from behind is used, that there are techniques that are safer than others. Surely you can understand that.

I did indeed mean Garner not Dorner, thank you for the correction.
Yes, I have training in many techniques, both from the military and from LE training. The guy in the video doesn't say how hed react to a guy that was not his size, nor if the guy was non compliant, because he wouldn't use that technique, get it? The guy in the video was compliant, negating the use of ANY technique other than verbal commands in a real life scenario. Having a plan is all fine and well until your plan doesn't work, then you try something else.

I can understand a lot of things, but having a safer technique? Safer for who? The "bad guy" or the LE? If you can come up with a way to safely put a guy on the ground that is non compliant Id love to know it, in fact youd become a millionaire. If you can invent the big bubble shooters used in "The Incredibles", youd be a super hero.

 

[SpaceCritter]

Not a bad pun. But Ill bite.
Dorner was a big boy.

Dorner?? Wow - Freudian slip??!

The video shows a compliant, easily manipulated subject, of roughly equal size and mass of the instructor. To make that technique work, youd need the same size pairings to work, AND for Dorner not to resist once he is kicked in the rear of the knee and headed for the ground.

Those two are obviously not of roughly equal size. And why do "youd need the same size pairings to work" ?? What are you offering as evidence?

You also mention that a kick to the rear of the knee is not damaging. Sorry, wrong. Maybe the initial kick may not be damaging, but the ensuing fall more than likely will, whether he lands on his front or back.
And teaching cops to kick anyone is just ill advised.

So cops aren't allowed to employ takedowns or compliance that involves, say, knocking out someone's elbow (also a hinge joint)? And how is a fall due to a knee collapse any more damaging than one due to a tackle involving a choke hold?

 

[SpaceCritter]

Having a plan is all fine and well until your plan doesn't work, then you try something else.

I believe he also discussed that in the video, discussing the "alternative" technique - and that would require hours to demonstrate all of those. Did you actually watch the video?

Methinks his point was to demonstrate a better way to have approached the Garner (NOT Dorner 8^) situation given the way it ACTUALLY went down, per the video evidence.

 

[Bonesinium]

I did indeed mean Garner not Dorner, thank you for the correction.
Yes, I have training in many techniques, both from the military and from LE training. The guy in the video doesn't say how hed react to a guy that was not his size, nor if the guy was non compliant, because he wouldn't use that technique, get it? The guy in the video was compliant, negating the use of ANY technique other than verbal commands in a real life scenario. Having a plan is all fine and well until your plan doesn't work, then you try something else.

Training in the technique demonstrated specifically?

Garner was not combative or aggressive in any way prior to being grabbed and the lack of non-compliance he exhibited was pulling his arm away and putting them in the air when his arm was grabbed, and nothing more. Based on that I would assume you feel only verbal commands should have been used, correct?

 

[GPP]

I believe he also discussed that in the video, discussing the "alternative" technique - and that would require hours to demonstrate all of those. Did you actually watch the video?

Methinks his point was to demonstrate a better way to have approached the Garner (NOT Dorner 8^) situation given the way it ACTUALLY went down, per the video evidence.

Ive genuflected 20 times for typing Dorner instead of Garner, and even thanked Bones for correcting me. Would you like me to juggle flaming kittens or something?

I did watch the video, and it didn't go down with Garner the way the video depicted it, have you watched the Garner video? And yes, the alternative technique he discussed that would take hours to demonstrate blah blah blah. Did you read the part where I said that in the video that you posted, theres actually no need for any technique whatsoever, because the guy wasn't being non compliant?

I have 26 years of doing this stupid job, and have multiple instances/stories whatever you want to call it where Ive gotten my ass kicked, kicked someones ass, etc etc etc. I also did quite a bit of boxing. So yes, I would suggest to you that these techniques work much better with similarly sized individuals.

We are taught to lock out elbows, not to knock them out. And I have news, a properly placed armbar only works on a....... wait for it....... compliant subject.
I would say the kicking of the knee and resulting injuries would be the same as the choke hold, which we agreed was........wrong.

Now I have to call our Dept IT guy in to get 4 hours of overtime because I don't know how to change the ****ing font back on my computer.