• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Valhalla Training?

Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
669
Likes
0
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
Anyone here actually trained at Valhalla our in CO? Know anyone who has?

If so, what's the buzz?

This motto from one of their hats pretty well sums up what it's all about: "TAKE NO PRISONERS EAT THEIR WOUNDED"

The place looks kick-ass!
 
Valhalla Training

One of my friends that I went thought Gunsite with arrended Valhalla about 6 months ago. While the techniques taught there conflicted somewhat from the Gunsite dogma, he posted a very good review. The Director of Training at Valhalla is Rob Pincus whose background is mostly police training. Rob is very well thought of in the training community.
 
VALHALLA A+
Check this place out. I went last October and went through the 2 day Concealed carry and the 3 day Executive Protection. The instructors are the best You will probably have Rob Pincus & Brad Schuppan (I cannot say enough about the caliber of these Guys A+ in my book) both of which were very helpful and helped me work on a few kinks I had.

The facility is top notch and in the time I was there we also used Air Munitions so I would say 4.5 days of shooting and a half day of Air Munitions. During that time we shot around 22-2300 rounds and most of that shooting was in a very real life dynamic environment. The cost of ammo is around what you can get it for but then you have to deal with shipping IMO it is easier to just buy it there. If you choose to ship your own you will need to contact them for a list of approved ammo.

The lodge gives students a deep discount and you will be amazed how nice it is and the food is top notch as well. Rooms are normally over $500 per night, students rate is (when I went) was around $130 per night

I am planning on bringing my family out the next time I go and I would be surprised if you have a bad time. Make sure you take a course that is not over your head as it will slow down the rest of the class and you may not enjoy/learn as much you would have. More like don't take a Adv. Weapons Handling & Close Qrtrs Counter Ambush, when you may have had no other weapons training or may have just gotten you first firearm.

If you are going to go train there, call them and speak with them they are more than helpful and will assist you in your course selection. I found the entire staff to be of the highest caliber and personally cannot wait to go back and train again.

Equipment I brought was a Glock 23, 5 mags, Blackhawk holster & Surefire light and a concealment jacket/vest.
I would definitely recommend you bring a small flashlight for low light work.

I hope that helps and check out the course list and the website
Bruce

http://www.valhallashootingclub.com/
 
what would be awesome...is if we could get a group of guys from here to all get out to valhalla...or even thunder ranch...i need to make it out there 1 of these days...maybe a group of us could get a good deal on the entire package...training airfare etc
 
Thanks all! Hopefully I can make it out there at some point. Now I jsut need to get out there to help subsidize the travel part.
 
Gunsite dogma

My friend was very happy with the level of training at Valhalla overall. He did have an issue with their not focusing on the front sight for every shot. Personally, I feel that this is not an issue. As just one example, it would be impossible to focus on the front sight when shooting from retention or foolish at 3 yards. While not always stressing on the Gunsite approach, Rob Pincus, the school director, is very good and anyone that wants to learn will have a very enlightening experience at Valhalla.
 
Jim:

Are you saying that they advocate point-shooting for some shots? Or are you saying that they advocate a double-tap or hammer where the second shot is not sighted?
 
Jim:

Are you saying that they advocate point-shooting for some shots? Or are you saying that they advocate a double-tap or hammer where the second shot is not sighted?

I have not trained at Vahalla but would welcome the opportunity to do so if time, money and planet - alignment all came together.

I have seen a segment on Vahalla on Per.-Def. TV in which the instructor indicated that they do advocate sighted shooting. However, I cannot say first hand. Hopefully Jim will have more information.
 
Valhalla

I hope that this thread is not another dicuussion of the merits of sighted vs. unsighted shooting. Of course they recommend unsighted shooting at close ranges. At ranges inside 3 yards, if you try to use sighted fire the BG will take your gun away and you will not be a happy camper. Brian Enos said it best when he stated " See what you need to see to make the shot". The opposite of that is the take sighted shots whenever you have the time and the distance.
I have asked my friend for a copt of his review of Valhalla, When I get it I will post it
 
I'm just curious. I'm not looking to criticize Valhalla -- there are several parts of the Gunsite dogma that I don't adhere to as well. In fact, I'd say that I don't adhere to the dogma of any of the schools I've attended. Instead, I've chosen what works for me and thrown out the rest. And what I've chosen has changed over time.

But I'm always interested in what a school's dogma is. Because maybe they know something I don't and it's time for me to change...

Jim, no, I'm not looking to go off on a rant about sighted vs. unsighted shooting. I'm just trying to understand what their general philosophy is and what the difference is between what they teach and what Gunsite teaches.
 
Valhalla course review Part 1 of 2

The author of this review is a very well seasoned shooter who also happend to be a great guy,

Enjoy

January 22, 2006
Ken Siverts' take on Training at Valhalla



My trip to Valhalla...

It may be hard to believe after shooting 1,550 rounds in three days but this was not a shooting class. One of the key concepts taught at Valhalla was that "the athletic ability to draw fast and shoot straight is not nearly as important as the ability to recognize an attack as early as possible and respond efficiently and appropriately, given the environment, training and tools available."

Four students, four instructors.

While we reviewed the basics, including sight picture and sight alignment, the very first drill of the day was standing before a target at about 7 yards and shooting it with the command. "Look at the target, not at your sights." Oh no. I thought, not that. I'd been conditioned to think "front sight, front sight." Valhalla's director Rob Pincus' contention is that in the real world of conflict, most people won't be seeing the sights when they are faced with a lethal threat. They will see the evil bad guy and shoot. Compound the fact that many shootings occur in poor or distracted light and then the front sight becomes even more irrelevant. Intuitive shooting he called it. He believes that intuitive shooting is fundamentally the same as sighted fire w/o the focus on the sights. He proved it to me.

Now don't get me wrong, we used our sights but only when precision was needed. "The longer the duration of a critical incident the higher the need for precision" was stated often. During our unsighted shooting drills (which proved beyond a doubt that you can put rounds into a fist at 7 yards at all times) we shot at a target, which was a bottle shape with two boxes inside. Around the perimeter were six small numbered shapes. We should shoot at a main box, again unsighted, and occasionally the RO would call for a precision shot into one of the small shapes or numbered boxes. They were constantly mixing up color, shape or number...you had to identify the shot and make it. With sights. Unsighted then back to sights. It was interesting for this front sight press kind of guy. The RO's were evil beings never allowing us to rest, constantly forcing us to make quick decisions!

The other challenge for me was that I shoot a modified weaver. They recommend shooting with their arms completely locked out. Two handed isosceles. One handed locked out. I was constantly taking a beating for not having my arms locked out. I did my best to try the stance but my prior training won. The
instructors there can shoot. They had a wide variety of security, law
enforcement, military and competition backgrounds.

And the next challenge I faced was the draw stroke. Typical on the outbound, grip, efficiently clear and smack and extend to the target and shoot. But after shooting the movement was to get the gun back to the body. IMMEDIATELY. Directly in the center of the chest with the barrel pointed slightly downward. And you better do it NOW after you've shot. Not down to "low ready." Later we found that low ready would get you tortured in close quarters with many bad guys around. Keep the gun in and you keep it. Hang the gun out there...it and you go bye bye. More later on that.

We shot every drill until slide lock. They believe that it is much more imperative to practice reloads from slide lock. It is their belief that when the slide locks, you're in deep shitzki and need to be able to fix it right away. We fixed it often because you were “encouraged” to run out of ammo during the drills. We were encouraged by shooting so much fricking ammo!!! And when you're reloading, you better be moving too. Again, his point, in a battle, you won't be counting rounds.

OK, so now we've completed basic marksmanship on the square range at 10, 20, and 30 feet using all the principles above. Now its time to move. Every time you shot at another target there was movement. Before the shot. Before the next target. Move. NOW. Constant movement.

Cover garments came on and never left us for the rest of the three days.

Somewhere in here we went into one of the simulator areas. There was an upstairs and a downstairs version and while they were connected we stayed on one floor or another. Virtually all the targets were reactive in nature. If you shot well and hard enough the targets responded. We went through convenience stores, bedrooms, kitchens, bars, restaurants, long hallways, offices, a wide variety of variations in set up, light, and sound. True 360 degree shooting. All of our simulators were set up as if we were walking in the park. Our home. Whatever. The surprise assault was to see how we reacted. So see for yourself. And for the RO to see. And then respond appropriately to the threat or no threat. Each trip though the maze was essentially 6-10 incidents as after addressing the threat we would holster up again and continue our walk. Until greeted again. It was an interesting mix of single, multiple targets at various distances. It also might be a hostage shot at up to 40'. Depending on if the gun was pointed at you or a victim determined your actions.

Another drill was to shoot from seated. From a sofa, with others seated next
to you we would SAFELY draw and engage one of three targets in the room and
move...knowing that if shooting began there may be other obstacles than were
there before.

"Our objective is to significantly affect the targets ability to present a lethal threat" we were told. THAT was repeated constantly. I'd say that it is the cornerstone of this class. Whatever it takes to reach that objective were the lessons.

Continued
 
Valhalla Course Review - Part 2 of 2

Let's talk about flashlights. Flashlight was almost always used indirectly.
Only enough light was used to identify the threat, light off, move, shoot.
One handed. No harries, no cigar, nada. Gun at the chest, light at the chest. Light shined only indirectly at about a 45 degree or so...enough to identify the threat and move and shoot. By shining the light elsewhere than you are shooting, the night blindness that comes from shooting at a brightly lit object does not happen with the indirect technique. Light, search, identify, light off, move shoot.

Back to the square range.

Then there was shooting while off balance. Shooting from unorthodox positions. And after we had that all down off to his "figure eight drill." We had a variety of the targets described above on the back wall. Some with no shoots, some off at 90 degrees to the back wall. All numbered. As we walked a figure eight around some barrels set up at 20' - 30' the RO would call out a "threat" by number. We would first identify the threat before beginning our drawstroke. Then from whatever position we're in we addressed the threat. First shot may be one handed, it may be two handed. He proved to us a fast, accurate one handed shot, followed by movement and follow-ups could be MUCH FASTER than turning to face and deliver to the target in a more conventional fashion. "Get that gun in quickly" was frequently the call to the students. Again, we found out why later. Move, shoot, get the gun back into your chest, move, move, move, move.

One time I was shooting away and went to slide lock. As my left arm cleared my sweater and reached for the magazine on my side only to find that my arm waslocked up by the instructor, Mr. Pincus. Further attempts to move the arm resulted in pain. "Fix it!" was the command. So a one handed reload was performed and I was released to continue to fight. Let me tell you that it was not unusual for Mr. Pincus to be "hands on" when making a point.

Simulators, simulators, simulators....again, all from concealed. After each "event" we continued along our way. We were constantly reminded as to what is proper cover or concealment in any situation. When it appeared that the group didn't get it on their individual runs through the maze. Rob Pincus would take us all back through to add emphasis and additional education when needed. One time we had a situation where a target was in a room and I was behind concealment. He said shoot him through the wall. I took three shots through the drywall and down went the bad guy 12 yards away. It was clearly pointed out the dangers of taking such a shot. What/who may be unknowingly beyond it etc.
While my judgement and alignment made the hits and dropped the target through the wall, it was also pointed out the amount of dust noise and such from the drywall on the other side may just "significantly affect the targets ability to present a lethal threat" by sending him back out the door or window even if you missed. He just wanted us to see what realistically happens indoors with shots like that.

We constantly moved back and forth from the square range to the simulators.
Constantly increasing the complexity of shooting skills needed and decision making skills needed to get the jobs done.

On the final day we added simunition and roll playing into the foray. Sometimes there were shooting options. Sometimes non-engagement was the solution.
Everybody students situation was different. And right answers varied. I'll give you just one of our many examples. I'm walking through the park. In the park there are nine roll players. Who were good guys, who were bad guys, you never knew until a threat was presented. Just like the real world. Constantly walking around. I come into a bar with numerous patrons. The bartender, Rob Pincus, tells me that it's closed and out the door I am ushered. Into the parking lot complete with car and others loitering around. I don't like bars, much less parking lots outside of bars so I head to what looks like an exit. A shooting ensues between two people in front of one of the cars. I MOVE FAST to
COVER behind a brick wall. I KEEP THE GUN IN CLOSE TO MY CHEST and observe.

(MY other option was to get the hell out of there but it was an unfamiliar area...LOL) Anyway, I wait, can't tell if they are good guy or bad guy. Moments later a man screams drop your gun, POLICE. I slowly look around to see him holding a badge in my face. I dropped my gun and laid down right there with my hands out in front of me. SAFE was called and the roll play ended without me taking a shot. Intense, after incident review took place with the Sheriff and SEAL role players including Rob Pincus asking me why I did what I did. In my case I told him that I stuck around because I didn't know a safe exit and I didn't shoot because I couldn't tell if they were LEO's or bad guys. Remember I told you about gun-handling and keeping your gun in. The bystanders in these incidents WILL take your gun from you if you leave it hanging in low ready. Do you hear me! It happened to the other students and the point was made to all.

The roles played were various and many. I can tell that the RO's and role players would respond to however the situation evolved based on my actions. At dinner, our four students found that virtually ALL of our role-plays were different scenarios. Much more was learned because of it.

I didn't think about it when I was asked what one word would summarize my experience at Valhalla. I didn't think of it because of the setting. The Elk
Mountain Resort is the Ritz without the ties. Calm, mountain setting with views beyond my eyes. There was a trout filled lake surrounding a beautiful wood lodge, with handball courts, rock climbing repelling tower, tennis, jacuzzis and meals beyond compare. Serene is how I felt while I was there. So it was hard for me to come up with the right word during the class. But as I think back, INTENSE is one word that I would use to summarize the class. That and "exceeded expectations."

Valhalla and CCW go together like a hand and glove.

Finally, let me review costs. The class was $650 for the three days.
Although I think "group deals" are made for a lesser class cost. Frangible ammunition is used throughout the class. We bought it there and I don't know if one can bring their own. Ammo cost were $500 for the 1,550 rounds. The lodge was $129/night. Dinner for two was in the $110 range. For meals that would make the finest restaurants blush. (This will be one shooting trip that your spouse will be glad to accompany you to! My costs for the training and trip were
"comped" as I won the May SWAT Magazine sweepstakes. (Yes, people really do win those things!!!) My brother and a childhood friend joined me and paid their own way. We all agree that we will go back. We all agree that it was expensive but it is was money well spent.

Ken Siverts

http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article000517781.cfm?x=b11,0,w
 
At the class I took from Randy Cain, he went into a particularly long rant against the Sul position, and demonstrated its problems with respect to handgun retention.

The sul position may have its uses, but I certainly would NOT advocate using it while in CQB.
 
The Sul postion (the same we used before someone capitalized on marketing it) is NOT a "ready" position and is NOT a "retention" position.

CQB is exactly where it should utilized. Or, more specifically, during team movement in close contact and dignitary / personal protection.

Don't read more into what is being stated in the review than is actually there.
 
I haven't bee to Valhalla yet to train, so I guess I'm not sure if that's the position the writer is discussing, but it sounds very close to Sul if it's not. Perhaps it's just a close guard.

Suarez actually advocates Sul as both a ready position and a retention position. This is from an article Gabe wrote on it:

On the shooting range, as a compromise between safety and readiness to shoot, the SUL position is an INVALUABLE method to conduct the 360 Check Six procedure. I teach it as a primary ready position. Rather than rename it and claim to have invented it, I give credit where its due. It was invented by trainer Max Joseph. Whatever his reasons for its invention and introduction, it is suitable for many scenarios that fit both Law Enforcement or Civilian CCW.

Some closed minded trainers who do not understand it (or are too arrogant to realize that there are in fact things they may not have invented or even considered, or that ANY science evolves and develops), have recently written about Position SUL, trying to ridicule those who use it. That speaks of their antiquated outlook when it comes to the discipline of the gun. As an intersting side note, many of those who eschew the SUL with a pistol use the very same concepts for teaching Defensive Shotgun or Urban Rifle - They call it The Indoor Low Ready (I have vintage pictures and tapes to prove it!).

Another thing that is often thrown around about SUL is that it creates weapon retention problems. All I can say is I don't think so. Any adversary who tries to disarm me or one of my students while we are in SUL will at the very minimum, get a mouthful of Glock and some broken bones for his efforts...probably much worse.

The 360 "Check Six" and Position SUL and its variants are a part of the true "Modern Combative Technique Of The Pistol", and an integral part of the Suarez International Training Group's Progressive Combat Pistol Curriculum.
 
Thor67:

I watched Randy Cain do a very fast and effective disarm of someone in position Sul -- it was just a single strike.

I can understand SWAT officers using it in a stack to avoid covering other officers with their muzzle. It is not what I would use in close proximity to an aggressor. YMMV.
 
Last edited:
Since Jim Conway trains with both Mr. Cain and Mr. Suarez maybe he can shed a little more light as to their position on this position. (Kind of like conjuction - junction; never mind you must be too young to get that)

Thor - Sul is not even close to what is being discussed from the Valhalla review. Sul can be very easily trapped and rendered ineffective at "bad breath" distance. It is NOT a ready or retention position. If your quote did in fact come from Mr. Suarez then him and I are 180 degrees out on this.

Sul is an easily defeatable position and is not intended to be a ready or retention platform.
 
Actually there was a good article in SWAT magazine that compared several ready positions including SUL and "Compressed High Ready" which is what they say Valhalla uses. The two positions seem very close.

Be great if Jim could chime in. I'm curious to know what the practical differences are.

And no, not too young to get the conjunction junction reference. Wish I were though!
 
Last edited:
? I'd say they are not remotely close.

Here's a picture of position Sul: http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/friendsandstrangers/alexis/M9sul.jpg.html

I suspect that the position Valhalla is teaching has the muzzle pointing towards the bad guy, with both hands on the gun, and the wrists very close to the chest. Not remotely like position Sul.

I'm not sure where that picture is from or who's referring it to Sul but it is NOT the position I know as Sul or the position we used before it became known as Sul.
 
TonyD:

That was what was referred to as Sul by Randy Cain and by a SWAT officer from a large department in NH.
 
Said SWAT officer was present in Gabe's course in 2005 too and he was an active participant in the discussion surrounding the use of SUL.
 
Back
Top Bottom