TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Was he describing Sul as the picture indicates?
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Valhalla Training?
- Thread starter Thor67
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Was he describing Sul as the picture indicates?
NO, SUL was demoed as with the gun at ~30 deg angle not facing downward (the way the picture is).
JimConway
Instructor
Sul vs. take away
The officer in Randy's class did indeed have his gun takeaway by Randy. Randy is very opposed to the SUL position ans spoke for over 10 minutes about the evils of the SUL position. The officer, in question, was told by Randy exactly how to hold the gun prior to the take away. The officer was not allowed any defensive moves as Randy demonstrated the take away. In a discussion with the officer afterward, the officer stated very clearly that no one would be able to do a gun take away if the SUL was done correctly.
The SUL and the Compact High Ready positions are both ready positions but have very different uses. The SUL position is intended to be a muzle control position and can be used to do, for example, a 360 degree scan, or to be somewhat covert with your firearn. The key aspect is the muzzle pointed down or at aabout a 20 degree angle and not at anyone.
The Compact High Ready is a variation of the low ready to be used where it would be a bad thing to have the muzzle fully extended. In this ready position the muzzle is pointed just below the BG's hands.
I hope that this answers your question.
The officer in Randy's class did indeed have his gun takeaway by Randy. Randy is very opposed to the SUL position ans spoke for over 10 minutes about the evils of the SUL position. The officer, in question, was told by Randy exactly how to hold the gun prior to the take away. The officer was not allowed any defensive moves as Randy demonstrated the take away. In a discussion with the officer afterward, the officer stated very clearly that no one would be able to do a gun take away if the SUL was done correctly.
The SUL and the Compact High Ready positions are both ready positions but have very different uses. The SUL position is intended to be a muzle control position and can be used to do, for example, a 360 degree scan, or to be somewhat covert with your firearn. The key aspect is the muzzle pointed down or at aabout a 20 degree angle and not at anyone.
The Compact High Ready is a variation of the low ready to be used where it would be a bad thing to have the muzzle fully extended. In this ready position the muzzle is pointed just below the BG's hands.
I hope that this answers your question.
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TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
I think we are splitting hairs at this point...![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
It's not splitting hairs at all. It is a definate manipulation of both the grip and position of the firearm. If I can't find any pics I'll take some of my own later to illustrate the difference.
The problem with all of this is people referring to this position as something it's not, discounting it by illustrating it incorrectly, discounting it because it is dangerous, ineffective and easily "defeatable" while wrongly employing the technique.
A lot of typical internet misinformation.
I think we are splitting hairs at this point...
Derek, not necessarily.
Hold you hand like that (no gun) with index finger pointed straight down! You are breaking your wrist and in a very unnatural position for your hand.
Now hold your hand at ~30 deg angle with index finger pointed. You are at a natural extension of your arm and have your wrist locked.
In any case you may well cross body parts (yours or a partner's) and this is a whole separate discussion about tactical team shooting. Gabe went over it, it's probably in his books and it is likely to be a hotly debated topic.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
If I am within arms distance I can take away your handgun regardless of the position.
Why was the above even demonstarted? Again, wrongly employed as you would never be using the Sul position at bad breath distance or at any time you are actually engaged with a hostile.
I read M1911 say 15 degrees. That isn't much.
My recollection of the way Gabe taught it (and the way I've practiced it) is a bit different from the photo. The off hand is in front of, not behind the firearm, providing both cover and some protection. As far as taking away a firearm when you're within arms length, the way in which the firearm is held is (as Tony pointed out) completely irrelevant. Step 1: Kill or render unconscious the person holding the gun. Step 2: Reach down and pick up the firearm.
Ken
Ken
15 degrees, 30 degrees -- I didn't have a protractor at the time
Let's just say it wasn't pointed at his feet and it wasn't 45 degrees. Somewhere in between. I thought closer to vertical than 30 degrees, but I may be misremembering.
Ken, the way the SWAT officer was holding the gun, he did indeed have his support hand between the gun and his abdomen. I'm guessing that the purpose of this was to ensure that the gun was not, in fact, pointed at his feet -- the support hand forced the angle off vertical.
This image appears to show Gabe in a similar position to picture above:
http://www.themartialist.com/0104/suarez.htm
Perhaps Gabe has changed his position since this picture was taken.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
15 degrees, 30 degrees -- I didn't have a protractor at the time
Let's just say it wasn't pointed at his feet and it wasn't 45 degrees. Somewhere in between. I thought closer to vertical than 30 degrees, but I may be misremembering.
Ken, the way the SWAT officer was holding the gun, he did indeed have his support hand between the gun and his abdomen. I'm guessing that the purpose of this was to ensure that the gun was not, in fact, pointed at his feet -- the support hand forced the angle off vertical.
This image appears to show Gabe in a similar position to picture above:
http://www.themartialist.com/0104/suarez.htm
Perhaps Gabe has changed his position since this picture was taken.
That photo is the closest I've seen that illustrates the position. It still isn't correct in the photo but it could have been snapped at a relaxed moment or in the process of changing.
It also difficult to see the peculiar grip placement of the weak hand at that angle. Though if you look close you can see the thumbs touching.
JimConway
Instructor
SUL Take Away
Tony D
Maybe you can take away a gun at bad breath distances. Your comment does raise a question. Why would anyone have a gun in the SUL position with the BG at that distance? This is beginning to sound like a rather esoteric agrument, about the wrong use of the SUL. Can we go on to something else?
Tony D
Maybe you can take away a gun at bad breath distances. Your comment does raise a question. Why would anyone have a gun in the SUL position with the BG at that distance? This is beginning to sound like a rather esoteric agrument, about the wrong use of the SUL. Can we go on to something else?
